Author Topic: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?  (Read 8521 times)

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Offline Ħ

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Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« on: October 05, 2011, 12:32:09 PM »
I hate to bring this up AGAIN, but after reading through Mat-John, I really get the idea that the kingdom is this literal political thing that's supposed to dominate other nations.  I wanted to bring this up here on DTF to get as many perspectives as I can on this (secular and religious).  I know that even among Christian posters here, there is disagreement as to what the "kingdom" is.  So...I'll post more when I get my thoughts together, but I wanted to make the thread now.  :biggrin:
 
So...what do you people think it is? (And just as important, why?)
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 12:37:34 PM by Ħ »
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline bosk1

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2011, 01:42:36 PM »
No time for a full response right now, but here are a few passages from the gospels for your consideration:

Luke 17:20-21:

Quote
20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’[a] For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.

Point:  The kingdom is not a physical thing, but is something within us.  (See also Romans 14:17)

John 6:15: 
Quote
15 Therefore when Jesus perceived that they were about to come and take Him by force to make Him king, He departed again to the mountain by Himself alone.

Point:  Jesus did not let the people make him a physical king in this world.

John 18:35-17: 
Quote
35 Pilate answered, “Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered You to me. What have You done?”
36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.
37 Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?”
Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”

Point:  Jesus did not come to be a physical king of a physical kingdom on this earth.

Col 1:13:

Quote
He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love

Point:  Paul says that people are already in the kingdom by the time he writes Colossians, so it existed at that time.
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Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2011, 01:47:33 PM »
I hate to bring this up AGAIN, but after reading through Mat-John, I really get the idea that the kingdom is this literal political thing that's supposed to dominate other nations.  I wanted to bring this up here on DTF to get as many perspectives as I can on this (secular and religious).  I know that even among Christian posters here, there is disagreement as to what the "kingdom" is.  So...I'll post more when I get my thoughts together, but I wanted to make the thread now.  :biggrin:
 
So...what do you people think it is? (And just as important, why?)

Sounds a lot like the traditional perception of China.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2011, 01:56:01 PM »
Bosk, I don't that's enough evidence for something that is arguably one of the central tenets of Christianity.  I mean...Matthew doesn't have any of those claims, and I don't think that Mark or John do (could be wrong).  So...placing yourself in the ancient world, where you didn't have access to all the NT canon (if it was even written), I don't think anyone could really come to the conclusion that the kingdom is an "in-your-heart" thing.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline bosk1

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2011, 06:44:32 PM »
Bosk, I don't that's enough evidence for something that is arguably one of the central tenets of Christianity.  I mean...Matthew doesn't have any of those claims, and I don't think that Mark or John do (could be wrong).  So...placing yourself in the ancient world, where you didn't have access to all the NT canon (if it was even written), I don't think anyone could really come to the conclusion that the kingdom is an "in-your-heart" thing.

How is that not enough evidence when Jesus specifically says in at least three separate passages in two separate gospels that the kingdom is not a physical kingdom (not to mention that Paul refers to it several times in the present and past tenses, rather than in future tense)?  And why do you think people would read Matthew and Mark for the purpose of understanding whether the kingdom of God was physical or spiritual?  That isn't the point of the gospels.  The point of each of the gospels essentially boils down to convincing the reader that Jesus was the son of God, not whether the kingdom is spiritual vs. physical.  Even by the time the epistles were written, there were lots of doctrinal errors floating around about things that aren't addressed in the gospels, such as whether the resurrection had already happened and people missed it.  Important topic?  Absolutely.  But not one that the gospels were designed to address head on.  You wouldn't really read Matthew or Mark in isolation to the exclusion of other texts to try to understand what the kingdom is any more than a Jew would read Deuteronomy in isolation to the exclusion of Exodus to understand what the passover was all about.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2011, 09:57:48 PM »
One can certainly find passages that vague-ify the notion of the Kingdom, but I think the overwhelming portrayal in the synoptic gospels is that the Kingdom was indeed what the Jews were awaiting (and their scripture had prophesied), a political/geographic entity ruled by the Messiah. As Carl Sagan said "extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence", and I think the notion that Jesus, a Jewish prophet after all, would talk about something utterly different than what his target audience was raised to believe in, is nowhere near enough supported by the spurious passages that get used to justify orthodox Christian interpretation.

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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2011, 09:55:31 AM »
One can certainly find passages that vague-ify the notion of the Kingdom, but I think the overwhelming portrayal in the synoptic gospels is that the Kingdom was indeed what the Jews were awaiting (and their scripture had prophesied), a political/geographic entity ruled by the Messiah. As Carl Sagan said "extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence", and I think the notion that Jesus, a Jewish prophet after all, would talk about something utterly different than what his target audience was raised to believe in, is nowhere near enough supported by the spurious passages that get used to justify orthodox Christian interpretation.

rumborak
Oh, I do.  In fact, I think that the point of the whole thing is that he preached something entirely different from what they were expecting.  That's why he didn't win over the vast majority of the Jewish populace.
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Offline William Wallace

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2011, 05:24:39 PM »
One can certainly find passages that vague-ify the notion of the Kingdom, but I think the overwhelming portrayal in the synoptic gospels is that the Kingdom was indeed what the Jews were awaiting (and their scripture had prophesied), a political/geographic entity ruled by the Messiah. As Carl Sagan said "extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence", and I think the notion that Jesus, a Jewish prophet after all, would talk about something utterly different than what his target audience was raised to believe in, is nowhere near enough supported by the spurious passages that get used to justify orthodox Christian interpretation.

rumborak
Oh, I do.  In fact, I think that the point of the whole thing is that he preached something entirely different from what they were expecting.  That's why he didn't win over the vast majority of the Jewish populace.
There's a very interesting apologetic in there if one looks closely enough, but that's another matter altogether.


Offline Ħ

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2011, 05:27:12 PM »
Still thinking about it...is it possible that there are two different meanings of the word "kingdom" in the NT?  As in...the kingdom is here today in the sense that we can acquire citizenship of it, but it has not physically arrived yet?  Sorta like becoming a citizen of a country before actually going to the country.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2011, 05:35:47 PM »
Since you have opened discussion to the entire new testament, there is a clear dichotomy between the now and the not yet.  Looking exhuastively at all the references manifests both a present and future picture

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2011, 04:15:39 AM »
It's been a while since I did a kingdom study, but it seems as if the word translated as "kingdom" is better translated as "kingness" or "reign" - it doesn't refer to a place or location, but the state of being reigned by God.  But "kingdom" of God sounds better.

Also, in the gospels, it seems apparent that whenever Jesus is discussing the kingdom, he is talking about here below, not heaven, and a here-right-now-but-not-complete-yet state of being.

At least that's what I remember.  Curse you, memory!
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2011, 12:55:50 PM »
The way I read that is that it is the kingdom of heaven on earth.  As in, it's the kingdom belonging to heaven, not the kingdom in heaven.  Like, the thirteen colonies were British, but weren't in Britain.

That's also why the kingdom is not of this world.  It's of heaven.  But there's no reason that means it's not physical.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2011, 01:52:23 PM »
Like Ravenloft being part of the Forgotten Realms but not really.

Offline Ħ

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2011, 06:37:59 PM »
But really, why does heaven have to be something metaphysical, mystical, other-dimensional, or purely spiritual?  I don't see any reason why heaven isn't or can't be a part of our universe.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2011, 06:42:52 PM »
But really, why does heaven have to be something metaphysical, mystical, other-dimensional, or purely spiritual?  I don't see any reason why heaven isn't or can't be a part of our universe.

Because if it were apart of our universe it could eventually be proven false. And the makers of the stories don't want that, so they make it as such that it is impossible to falsify.

Offline Ħ

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2011, 07:10:53 PM »
But really, why does heaven have to be something metaphysical, mystical, other-dimensional, or purely spiritual?  I don't see any reason why heaven isn't or can't be a part of our universe.

Because if it were apart of our universe it could eventually be proven false. And the makers of the stories don't want that, so they make it as such that it is impossible to falsify.
The "makers of the stories" didn't write it that way, though.  They wrote it as if heaven was an actual geographic location.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2011, 08:33:15 PM »
But really, why does heaven have to be something metaphysical, mystical, other-dimensional, or purely spiritual?  I don't see any reason why heaven isn't or can't be a part of our universe.

Because if it were apart of our universe it could eventually be proven false. And the makers of the stories don't want that, so they make it as such that it is impossible to falsify.
The "makers of the stories" didn't write it that way, though.  They wrote it as if heaven was an actual geographic location.

Then it has been falsified.

Offline William Wallace

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2011, 09:02:10 PM »
But really, why does heaven have to be something metaphysical, mystical, other-dimensional, or purely spiritual?  I don't see any reason why heaven isn't or can't be a part of our universe.

Because if it were apart of our universe it could eventually be proven false. And the makers of the stories don't want that, so they make it as such that it is impossible to falsify.
You know, there are other sources for commentary on religion besides Skeptical Inquirer.

Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2011, 12:51:15 AM »
But really, why does heaven have to be something metaphysical, mystical, other-dimensional, or purely spiritual?  I don't see any reason why heaven isn't or can't be a part of our universe.

Because if it were apart of our universe it could eventually be proven false. And the makers of the stories don't want that, so they make it as such that it is impossible to falsify.
You know, there are other sources for commentary on religion besides Skeptical Inquirer.

I've never read it  :lol


Offline rumborak

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2011, 06:35:03 AM »
Oh, I do.  In fact, I think that the point of the whole thing is that he preached something entirely different from what they were expecting.

How much is that notion borne out by the gospels though? Jesus explicitly said he didn't come to replace the Law, and the disciples referred to him as the Messiah. The notion of the Jewish Messiah is a very specific one, so I would think they wouldn't have referred to him as Messiah had they not thought of him as this flesh-and-bones ruler of the Jewish people.
IMHO, Jesus told them exactly what they had been raised with: That the rule of God under the Messiah would come. Jesus' "twist" was that it would come soon ("this generation will not pass")

Quote
  That's why he didn't win over the vast majority of the Jewish populace.

My take on it is that the same happened as with the Camping guy recently: He too foresaw an imminent upheaval that would fulfill the old prophesies (in Camping's case Jesus' second coming, in Jesus' case the coming of the Messiah). The reason why Camping didn't have that many followers is the same as why Jesus didn't have them. People just didn't think the big upheaval was going to happen.

rumborak
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 06:43:51 AM by rumborak »
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Offline William Wallace

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2011, 09:39:33 AM »
But really, why does heaven have to be something metaphysical, mystical, other-dimensional, or purely spiritual?  I don't see any reason why heaven isn't or can't be a part of our universe.

Because if it were apart of our universe it could eventually be proven false. And the makers of the stories don't want that, so they make it as such that it is impossible to falsify.
You know, there are other sources for commentary on religion besides Skeptical Inquirer.

I've never read it  :lol
I was sure you did. Your view of the Gospel writers sounds as if it were lifted out of a "skepticism for dummies" publication. It's like the Gospel writers were trying to sneak something by us, but thanks to your detective work they failed. 

Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2011, 10:40:41 AM »
But really, why does heaven have to be something metaphysical, mystical, other-dimensional, or purely spiritual?  I don't see any reason why heaven isn't or can't be a part of our universe.

Because if it were apart of our universe it could eventually be proven false. And the makers of the stories don't want that, so they make it as such that it is impossible to falsify.
You know, there are other sources for commentary on religion besides Skeptical Inquirer.

I've never read it  :lol
I was sure you did. Your view of the Gospel writers sounds as if it were lifted out of a "skepticism for dummies" publication. It's like the Gospel writers were trying to sneak something by us, but thanks to your detective work they failed.

Whether they were intentionally dishonest or just tried to rationalize it into existence. They sure did a good job at being as elusive as possible so not be questioned.


Offline William Wallace

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2011, 04:51:49 PM »
But really, why does heaven have to be something metaphysical, mystical, other-dimensional, or purely spiritual?  I don't see any reason why heaven isn't or can't be a part of our universe.

Because if it were apart of our universe it could eventually be proven false. And the makers of the stories don't want that, so they make it as such that it is impossible to falsify.
You know, there are other sources for commentary on religion besides Skeptical Inquirer.

I've never read it  :lol
I was sure you did. Your view of the Gospel writers sounds as if it were lifted out of a "skepticism for dummies" publication. It's like the Gospel writers were trying to sneak something by us, but thanks to your detective work they failed.

Whether they were intentionally dishonest or just tried to rationalize it into existence. They sure did a good job at being as elusive as possible so not be questioned.
No, not really. And a little reading would dispel such a notion.

Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2011, 05:08:17 PM »
But really, why does heaven have to be something metaphysical, mystical, other-dimensional, or purely spiritual?  I don't see any reason why heaven isn't or can't be a part of our universe.

Perfect! I'm up for a little reading. If you have something in mind please let me know. Obviously you will say the bible but I'm not about to read all 1400+ pages to understand what I'm getting wrong. If there are specific chapters etc.. You have in mind great.

Because if it were apart of our universe it could eventually be proven false. And the makers of the stories don't want that, so they make it as such that it is impossible to falsify.
You know, there are other sources for commentary on religion besides Skeptical Inquirer.

I've never read it  :lol
I was sure you did. Your view of the Gospel writers sounds as if it were lifted out of a "skepticism for dummies" publication. It's like the Gospel writers were trying to sneak something by us, but thanks to your detective work they failed.

Whether they were intentionally dishonest or just tried to rationalize it into existence. They sure did a good job at being as elusive as possible so not be questioned.
No, not really. And a little reading would dispel such a notion.

Offline William Wallace

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2011, 12:05:47 PM »
I just stumbled across a related chapter in a book I'm reading, and I thought sharing some of it could be useful.

One can certainly find passages that vague-ify the notion of the Kingdom, but I think the overwhelming portrayal in the synoptic gospels is that the Kingdom was indeed what the Jews were awaiting (and their scripture had prophesied), a political/geographic entity ruled by the Messiah. As Carl Sagan said "extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence", and I think the notion that Jesus, a Jewish prophet after all, would talk about something utterly different than what his target audience was raised to believe in, is nowhere near enough supported by the spurious passages that get used to justify orthodox Christian interpretation.

rumborak
First, there's no doubt about what Jesus' followers and indeed most Jews had in mind when they thought about the kingdom of God. But Jesus not once mentions the restoration of David's Kingdom. Similarly, there's no mention of the liberation of the oppressed subjects under Roman rule, as the Jews probably expected based on verses like Isaiah 61:1. Jesus refers to that passage in his response John the Baptist in Luke 7, but he does not suggest that he is a political or military figure.

To follow up on Bosk's point that the Kingdom is not physical, Jesus said that he had come to inaugurate this kingdom and that it was not fully realized. This is according to NT scholar F.F. Bruce.

Quote
At present the Kingdom of God, and Jesus himself, were beset by limitations. One day these limitations would be removed. 'But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed! (Luke 12:50) That this baptism was  his death is clear enough from the terms in which he once asked his disciples...if they were able to drink his cup or be baptized with his baptism (Mark 10:38). His death would be the means of unleashing the powers of the Kingdom of God and of bringing liberation  and blessing to many  more than could be touched by his current ministry..."

There's much more, but let's see if anyone bites.


Offline rumborak

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2011, 08:58:22 PM »
First, there's no doubt about what Jesus' followers and indeed most Jews had in mind when they thought about the kingdom of God. But Jesus not once mentions the restoration of David's Kingdom.

I think it was implicit, since that's what the prophesies said it was going to be.
Jesus was considered to be a direct descendant of David, and he was said to sit to the right of God in the new Kingdom. Without sufficient evidence that Jesus considered this *something different*, the assumption should be everybody (including Jesus) was expecting something very similar to the Jewish prophesies. Keep in mind that most gospels were written for a Jewish audience; any difference to Jewish prophecy would, one would expect, be spelled out *clearly* by the author to avoid any kind of confusion on the part of the listener. The fact that there isn't means the Jewish prophecies remain intact.

Quote
Similarly, there's no mention of the liberation of the oppressed subjects under Roman rule, as the Jews probably expected based on verses like Isaiah 61:1. Jesus refers to that passage in his response John the Baptist in Luke 7, but he does not suggest that he is a political or military figure.

Jesus foretells a major upheaval ("no stone will be left unturned") all in the near future. I agree that he didn't see himself as a political or military figure, it seemed he rather expected this upheaval to be initiated by God himself.


Quote
That this baptism was  his death is clear enough from the terms in which he once asked his disciples...if they were able to drink his cup or be baptized with his baptism (Mark 10:38).

Interpreting Mark 10:38 that way is IMHO once again "creative reading". Look at the whole passage:

Quote
35 And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came up to him and said to him, "Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you." 36And he said to them, "What do you want me to do for you?" 37And they said to him, "Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory." 38Jesus said to them, "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?" 39And they said to him, "We are able." And Jesus said to them, "The cup that I drink you will drink, and with the baptism with which I am baptized, you will be baptized, 40but to sit at my right hand or at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared." 41And when the ten heard it, they began to be indignant at James and John. 42 And Jesus called them to him and said to them, "You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. 43But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,[d] 44and whoever would be first among you must be slave[e] of all. 45For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

This passage is clearly another example of "the first will be last, the last will be first" Jesus had pointed out elsewhere. James and John essentially want a "prime spot" in the Kingdom due to them being disciples, and Jesus reprimands them for asking that. But, interestingly, he goes on to say "ok, you asked for it, so you *are* baptized like I am baptized" (10:19). This clearly doesn't refer to death since James and John don't die with Jesus but live long after. It's an orthodox attempt to have Jesus foresee his own crucifixion, but scripturally it just doesn't hold up.

rumborak
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 09:04:36 PM by rumborak »
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2011, 02:52:55 AM »
Oh, I do.  In fact, I think that the point of the whole thing is that he preached something entirely different from what they were expecting.

How much is that notion borne out by the gospels though?
It's borne out completely by the gospels.  The Jews had one expectation of the coming Kingdom and Jesus preached something entirely different.

Luke 17:20 & 21 Now at one point the Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom of God was coming, so he answered, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

And then all of Jesus' parables of the Kingdom, along with his other teachings, point to something vastly different than what the Jews had in mind.

Also, your mention of the "no stone left on another" has to do with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.  It has nothing to do with anything of God, kingdom or otherwise.


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Offline rumborak

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2011, 03:03:30 AM »
That it refers to the destruction of Jerusalem is orthodox, i.e. traditional interpretation, but I personally find that very unlikely. The Romans didn't sack Jerusalem until much later (i.e. 40 years later), which doesn't work at all with Jesus' statement of "none of you here will have tasted death before these things come to pass". And I don't see why Jesus would randomly talk about a military defeat in the future that has no bearing on anything else he talked about. In my opinion he talked about the end of times, and indeed Mark 13 is called that ("The Destruction of the Temple and Signs of the End Times").

I will concede however your point about Luke 17:20 & 21, and I personally am always somewhat stumped by that passage, because it doesn't jibe with the rest of Jesus' message, in my opinion. I am left wondering whether this was a gnostic influence that was added later.

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« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 03:11:44 AM by rumborak »
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2011, 03:09:57 AM »
That it refers to the destruction of Jerusalem is orthodox, i.e. traditional interpretation, but I personally find that very unlikely. The Romans didn't sack Jerusalem until much later (i.e. 40 years later), which doesn't work at all with Jesus' statement of "none of you here will have tasted death before these things come to pass".

I will concede however your point about Luke 17:20 & 21, and I personally am always somewhat stumped by that passage, because it doesn't jibe with the rest of Jesus' message, in my opinion. I am left wondering whether this was a gnostic influence that was added later.

rumborak
I think you are misreading his message then, because it is fairly obvious from the depictions of his message in all four gospels and all the other early Christian writings that his role was not in any way what the Jews were expecting.

And he didn't say that "none" of you will taste death.  He said "some".  And it is certainly possible that some of those people would still have been alive 40 years later.

However, remember that the gospels weren't written until after the destruction of Jerusalem.  Most critical scholars feel that the reference to that destruction was retrojected into Jesus's "prophecy" of 40 years before.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2011, 03:18:43 AM »
That it refers to the destruction of Jerusalem is orthodox, i.e. traditional interpretation, but I personally find that very unlikely. The Romans didn't sack Jerusalem until much later (i.e. 40 years later), which doesn't work at all with Jesus' statement of "none of you here will have tasted death before these things come to pass".

I will concede however your point about Luke 17:20 & 21, and I personally am always somewhat stumped by that passage, because it doesn't jibe with the rest of Jesus' message, in my opinion. I am left wondering whether this was a gnostic influence that was added later.

rumborak
I think you are misreading his message then, because it is fairly obvious from the depictions of his message in all four gospels and all the other early Christian writings that his role was not in any way what the Jews were expecting.

I'm not saying he fit the bill perfectly in terms of fulfilling the Jewish prophecies. There were many discrepancies that needed to be ironed out or glossed over (e.g. that he was from Nazareth, not Bethlehem), but I think overall the disciples saw him as a "modified" Messiah, the one who would usher in the new Kingdom in their lifetime.

Quote
And he didn't say that "none" of you will taste death.  He said "some".  And it is certainly possible that some of those people would still have been alive 40 years later.

Sorry, yes, I was mixing it with the other statement of that the generation will not have passed before the things happen.

Quote
However, remember that the gospels weren't written until after the destruction of Jerusalem.  Most critical scholars feel that the reference to that destruction was retrojected into Jesus's "prophecy" of 40 years before.

That's my point though. I think Jesus was referring to a very imminent upheaval, not one 40 years down the road that would have fairly little consequence.

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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2011, 04:27:09 AM »
He was referring to an upheaval, just not a political/militaristic one for which the Jews were hoping.  That kind of charismatic leader didn't appear until the mid-60s, when the revolt actually happened (and later under Simon Bar Kochba during the second Jewish revolution).  If Jesus had declared THAT kind of kingdom, the revolution would have occurred during his lifetime, not 40 years later.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2011, 04:56:40 AM »
Well, I think that's what he prophesied, or at least something similar. That's why other apostles later like Paul were sitting there with bated breath, waiting for the upheaval to come.

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2011, 05:26:00 AM »
Well, I think that's what he prophesied, or at least something similar. That's why other apostles later like Paul were sitting there with bated breath, waiting for the upheaval to come.

rumborak
What they were waiting for was the apocalypse, not the rule of a Jewish Messiah. 
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2011, 05:49:56 AM »
I'm pretty sure (in my view) that the two were going to go together in their expectation. The apocalypse with God's judgment was going to usher in the new rule under God and the Messiah. The fact that Jesus unexpectedly died was then the source for the idea of the Second Coming, when Jesus (the Messiah) would return, judge the living and the dead and rule in the Kingdom of God from there on.

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2011, 06:04:50 AM »
I'm pretty sure (in my view) that the two were going to go together in their expectation. The apocalypse with God's judgment was going to usher in the new rule under God and the Messiah. The fact that Jesus unexpectedly died was then the source for the idea of the Second Coming, when Jesus (the Messiah) would return, judge the living and the dead and rule in the Kingdom of God from there on.

rumborak
But that isn't what the Kingdom of God means.
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