Octavarium or Breaking All Illusions

[MetropolisxPt1]

8vm by a long shot, give adtoe 3 months to sit in and I guarantee this poll wont be as close.

[Mr. Beale]

BAI is great but not in the same league as 8vm

[Jaffa]

Voted for BAI.

It may just be the newness of BAI vs. the overexposure I've had to 8VM.

But lately, when I've listened to 8VM, it just hasn't done as much for me as it used to.

[Bongasti]

Octavarium, by far. It just is much more memorable.

[SlickSy]

As a song, Octavarium is Dream Theater's magnum opus. Breaking All Illusions is a great song but it's nowhere near as good.
But I will say that A Dramatic Turn of Events is a better album than Octavarium.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

breaking all illusions by a landslide. BAI is one of DT's top songs ever. octavarium is not.

[N4Player]

I can't vote without the left part of my brain getting angry on the right one or vice versa. Impossible choice.

Precisely, voting on this feels like I would be cutting off one hand to spite the other. 2 gems.

[lumpy33]

as a musician, i feel like breaking all illusions would be a much harder song to learn how to play, and the more something challenges me, the more meat i feel it has, so i voted for bai.

[Guitalguy]

Octavarium still is my favourite song ever. And I haven't listened enough to BAI to fully enjoy it yet. But I think it requires more than an exceptional song to beat 8VM.

[energythief]

I've always felt that Octavarium was kind of patched-together and that it didn't flow very smoothly from section to section.  Most of the changes are very abrupt and jarring, and the introduction could have been about 1/4 as long as still made its point.  So my vote goes to Breaking All Illusions, which I think is a vastly superior song.

I agree with you. I've never understood the praise for Octavarium. It is an overdone, stretched out song.

[Ħ]

BAI is a mess.  Octavarium is phenomenal.

[Nofire]

Octavarium. One of my favorite songs of all time. BAI can also get really high, but Octavarium has been there since the day it came out more than 6 years ago. Tough to beat.

[The Silent Cody]

BAI is a mess.  Octavarium is phenomenal.

THIS, finally somebody who understands me only JP solo from BAI is really awesome... but only that

[HarlequinForest]

This poll wouldn't be nearly as close if it was Octavarium that was just released, rather than BAI.

[Vajra]

BAI is an amazing song, but c'mon... against Octavarium? That would be like asking a woman if she prefers a homeless man or a good looking millionaire. 

[Tis BOOLsheet]

I've always felt that Octavarium was kind of patched-together and that it didn't flow very smoothly from section to section.  Most of the changes are very abrupt and jarring, and the introduction could have been about 1/4 as long as still made its point.  So my vote goes to Breaking All Illusions, which I think is a vastly superior song.

I agree with you. I've never understood the praise for Octavarium. It is an overdone, stretched out song.

this.

[hefdaddy42]

What's with the plethora of polls regarding some DT songs/albums Versus anything ADTOE related? Do we really need an Awake vs ADTOE, SFAM vs ADTOE, SDOIT vs ADTOE, Images vs ADTOE, WDADU vs ADTOE, BAI vs Octavarium, Far From Heaven vs a random selection of DT ballads, Home & TGP and something else ADTOE related that I can't remember, etc...
Is this really the only discussion we can all make? Comparing every aspect of this album one by one with every moment of DTs past catalogue? 

Banny, don't you know that this happens every time a new DT album is released?  There is noting new under the sun.

[nightmare_cinema]

The first 'this or that' poll I've struggled on... on one hand, I love 8vm, I love the length and the way it takes you through a journey... I get insane chills at the run up to the climax, there are LOADS of really delicate little instrumental parts I listen for each time and think are beautiful.

But Breaking All Illusions... the album it's on is pretty lame in comparison to past Dream Theater and I hand on heart really don't get why so many fans are so in love with it so quickly. But that song, is awesome. It isn't perfect but it's the closest to perfection on the album. And when I first heard the guitar solo part I was hooked on nothing but that for at least a week straight. Hmm.

[energythief]

But Breaking All Illusions... the album it's on is pretty lame in comparison to past Dream Theater and I hand on heart really don't get why so many fans are so in love with it so quickly.

What "type" of fan are you? Do you need to let albums grow on you or do you "get" them quickly? The reason I ask is that I am not a musician, and I find DT albums so dense and complex that it takes me a very long time (and tons of spins) before I start to unravel them. For me, wth each subsequent listen ADTOE is getting better and better and better, so much so that I now rank it at #3. It took me a while to realize that, but when it did, my opinion caught up with the quicker members of the forum.


Just curious of your experience with it so far.

[nightmare_cinema]

But Breaking All Illusions... the album it's on is pretty lame in comparison to past Dream Theater and I hand on heart really don't get why so many fans are so in love with it so quickly.

What "type" of fan are you? Do you need to let albums grow on you or do you "get" them quickly? The reason I ask is that I am not a musician, and I find DT albums so dense and complex that it takes me a very long time (and tons of spins) before I start to unravel them. For me, wth each subsequent listen ADTOE is getting better and better and better, so much so that I now rank it at #3. It took me a while to realize that, but when it did, my opinion caught up with the quicker members of the forum.


Just curious of your experience with it so far.

Type of fan... well to be honest, it nearly always takes a while for new albums to sink in for me. There are quite a few albums where I've heard them a couple times, gone pfft and then a few years later they've clicked and I've been mad at myself for not getting them sooner. But I'm a musician and I don't tend to find DT music too dense or complex, I've given ADTOE probably in total of 15 or 20 total listens over the past couple of weeks and my opinion of it rose dramatically when I found the parts I clicked really well with (solo in Breaking All Illusions for example) but then it leveled off. Parts of the album are insanely awesome, but for me DT has always been about entire songs being insanely awesome and the sum of the whole being even more beautiful than of the parts. I don't wanna listen through a mediocre song such as Build Me Up/Break Me Down just for the brilliant part at 4:20 (yeah, you all know what I'm talking about!!). I guess I just have really high expectations from them given the brilliance they've provided so far but it just doesn't match any of their previous albums for me (barring WDADU which I find really hard to get just because of the production and Dominici, I clicked with Afterlife once I heard it on Score).

One thing I have noticed however is that most of the fans loving this album didn't really like the previous few. I, on the other hand, fucking love Systematic Chaos, Black Clouds and Silver Linings, Octavarium and Train of Thought. Like, they're not quite SFAM or I&W territory, but they ain't far off. Maybe if I was disappointed in those albums the latest one would touch something in me that it has in other people but... them's the apples.

[theseoafs]

Octavarium is just the best song.

[energythief]

One thing I have noticed however is that most of the fans loving this album didn't really like the previous few. I, on the other hand, fucking love Systematic Chaos, Black Clouds and Silver Linings, Octavarium and Train of Thought. Like, they're not quite SFAM or I&W territory, but they ain't far off. Maybe if I was disappointed in those albums the latest one would touch something in me that it has in other people but... them's the apples.

Great observation - I am one of those fan who were definitely disappointed by 6DOIT through BC&SL (each worse than the previous album IMO), so ADTOE is like pure sunshine for me.


Thanks for the thoughtful reply to my question, I appreciate it.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

But Breaking All Illusions... the album it's on is pretty lame in comparison to past Dream Theater and I hand on heart really don't get why so many fans are so in love with it so quickly.

What "type" of fan are you? Do you need to let albums grow on you or do you "get" them quickly? The reason I ask is that I am not a musician, and I find DT albums so dense and complex that it takes me a very long time (and tons of spins) before I start to unravel them. For me, wth each subsequent listen ADTOE is getting better and better and better, so much so that I now rank it at #3. It took me a while to realize that, but when it did, my opinion caught up with the quicker members of the forum.


Just curious of your experience with it so far.

Type of fan... well to be honest, it nearly always takes a while for new albums to sink in for me. There are quite a few albums where I've heard them a couple times, gone pfft and then a few years later they've clicked and I've been mad at myself for not getting them sooner. But I'm a musician and I don't tend to find DT music too dense or complex, I've given ADTOE probably in total of 15 or 20 total listens over the past couple of weeks and my opinion of it rose dramatically when I found the parts I clicked really well with (solo in Breaking All Illusions for example) but then it leveled off. Parts of the album are insanely awesome, but for me DT has always been about entire songs being insanely awesome and the sum of the whole being even more beautiful than of the parts. I don't wanna listen through a mediocre song such as Build Me Up/Break Me Down just for the brilliant part at 4:20 (yeah, you all know what I'm talking about!!). I guess I just have really high expectations from them given the brilliance they've provided so far but it just doesn't match any of their previous albums for me (barring WDADU which I find really hard to get just because of the production and Dominici, I clicked with Afterlife once I heard it on Score).

One thing I have noticed however is that most of the fans loving this album didn't really like the previous few. I, on the other hand, fucking love Systematic Chaos, Black Clouds and Silver Linings, Octavarium and Train of Thought. Like, they're not quite SFAM or I&W territory, but they ain't far off. Maybe if I was disappointed in those albums the latest one would touch something in me that it has in other people but... them's the apples.

a dramatic turn of events is "lame," systematic chaos and black clouds, octavarium are not only awesome but theyre not far from images....

[manticore999]

I've always felt that Octavarium was kind of patched-together and that it didn't flow very smoothly from section to section.  Most of the changes are very abrupt and jarring, and the introduction could have been about 1/4 as long as still made its point.  So my vote goes to Breaking All Illusions, which I think is a vastly superior song.

I agree with you. I've never understood the praise for Octavarium. It is an overdone, stretched out song.

Yeah, this. I've always thought 8vm was a mess. Seriously don't know how anyone can even get through it!
this.

[nightmare_cinema]

a dramatic turn of events is "lame," systematic chaos and black clouds, octavarium are not only awesome but theyre not far from images....

They are all incredible albums. I seriously don't get how anybody can not like SC with ITPOE bookending it. That song blows my mind on every single listen! I meant they're not far from Images in the fact that they're all quality albums with a lot of depth and meaning for me, and they're all fairly consistent in quality throughout. They're definitely all in my top 10 or 20 albums anyway. I'm disappointed in the new direction.

[nightmare_cinema]

One thing I have noticed however is that most of the fans loving this album didn't really like the previous few. I, on the other hand, fucking love Systematic Chaos, Black Clouds and Silver Linings, Octavarium and Train of Thought. Like, they're not quite SFAM or I&W territory, but they ain't far off. Maybe if I was disappointed in those albums the latest one would touch something in me that it has in other people but... them's the apples.

Great observation - I am one of those fan who were definitely disappointed by 6DOIT through BC&SL (each worse than the previous album IMO), so ADTOE is like pure sunshine for me.


Thanks for the thoughtful reply to my question, I appreciate it.

You're welcome

[Tis BOOLsheet]

a dramatic turn of events is "lame," systematic chaos and black clouds, octavarium are not only awesome but theyre not far from images....

They are all incredible albums. I seriously don't get how anybody can not like SC with ITPOE bookending it. That song blows my mind on every single listen! I meant they're not far from Images in the fact that they're all quality albums with a lot of depth and meaning for me, and they're all fairly consistent in quality throughout. They're definitely all in my top 10 or 20 albums anyway. I'm disappointed in the new direction.

well for me personally, and i think a lot of people might agree, presence of enemies pt 1 is a great dream theater tune; it's one of their top tracks. there's also some promise in constant motion and about a minute of good material in dark eternal night. the other songs, however, are not very good at all. theyre just not the quality most fans have come to expect from the band. one of the reasons a lot of people like dramatic turn is because the band clearly made an attempt to reach back to images and capture some of the aspects of their earlier style that made them. images was progressive at the time, melodic, and exciting just to mention a few things (i really could go on and on). dramatic turn is not as good as images but clearly tries to build on that early style that a lot of people felt was lost in the last decade (not saying there havent been great songs in the past decade).

[BlobVanDam]

a dramatic turn of events is "lame," systematic chaos and black clouds, octavarium are not only awesome but theyre not far from images....

They are all incredible albums. I seriously don't get how anybody can not like SC with ITPOE bookending it. That song blows my mind on every single listen! I meant they're not far from Images in the fact that they're all quality albums with a lot of depth and meaning for me, and they're all fairly consistent in quality throughout. They're definitely all in my top 10 or 20 albums anyway. I'm disappointed in the new direction.

well for me personally, and i think a lot of people might agree, presence of enemies pt 1 is a great dream theater tune; it's one of their top tracks. there's also some promise in constant motion and about a minute of good material in dark eternal night. the other songs, however, are not very good at all. theyre just not the quality most fans have come to expect from the band. one of the reasons a lot of people like dramatic turn is because the band clearly made an attempt to reach back to images and capture some of the aspects of their earlier style that made them. images was progressive at the time, melodic, and exciting just to mention a few things (i really could go on and on). dramatic turn is not as good as images but clearly tries to build on that early style that a lot of people felt was lost in the last decade (not saying there havent been great songs in the past decade).

There are also many of us who don't feel anything was lost in the past decade, and like the progression of those recent albums, rather than dislike them and think it somehow wasn't "true" Dream Theater.
A lot of stuff on their recent albums (including SC) was more melodic than ADTOE, and yes some of it is even as melodic as IaW. There's nothing wrong that.

Even though MP's influence was responsible for some of the heavier elements of recent DT that some people here dislike, such as the spoken vocal parts (yes, they're spoken, not even close to RORORO), he also had his part in some of the melodic aspects on the recent albums too. Even though the last couple of albums are among their heaviest, they also had perhaps the best vocal harmonies of any DT album.

Now that he's gone, I feel that particular aspect is less prominent on ADTOE. Obviously ADTOE has many great harmonies (such as the LNF chorus), but it doesn't have any of those great JLB/MP/JP 3 part harmonies that were one of my favourite aspects of recent DT, such as throughout ANTR, or the chorus for AROP. I wish that JP had done some of the harmonies in BTS. It would have added some great texture to it, and I don't think it takes anything away from JLB being the vocalist.

While some people like to ignore modern DT and believe it has to sound like IaW/SFAM to be real Dream Theater, they missed that DT have evolved over the past decade, and added a lot of fantastic elements that fans of those recent albums appreciate. I don't feel that ADTOE brought back the melodic element of DT, because at no point did it ever go missing.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

a dramatic turn of events is "lame," systematic chaos and black clouds, octavarium are not only awesome but theyre not far from images....

They are all incredible albums. I seriously don't get how anybody can not like SC with ITPOE bookending it. That song blows my mind on every single listen! I meant they're not far from Images in the fact that they're all quality albums with a lot of depth and meaning for me, and they're all fairly consistent in quality throughout. They're definitely all in my top 10 or 20 albums anyway. I'm disappointed in the new direction.

well for me personally, and i think a lot of people might agree, presence of enemies pt 1 is a great dream theater tune; it's one of their top tracks. there's also some promise in constant motion and about a minute of good material in dark eternal night. the other songs, however, are not very good at all. theyre just not the quality most fans have come to expect from the band. one of the reasons a lot of people like dramatic turn is because the band clearly made an attempt to reach back to images and capture some of the aspects of their earlier style that made them. images was progressive at the time, melodic, and exciting just to mention a few things (i really could go on and on). dramatic turn is not as good as images but clearly tries to build on that early style that a lot of people felt was lost in the last decade (not saying there havent been great songs in the past decade).

There are also many of us who don't feel anything was lost in the past decade, and like the progression of those recent albums, rather than dislike them and think it somehow wasn't "true" Dream Theater.
A lot of stuff on their recent albums (including SC) was more melodic than ADTOE, and yes some of it is even as melodic as IaW. There's nothing wrong that.

Even though MP's influence was responsible for some of the heavier elements of recent DT that some people here dislike, such as the spoken vocal parts (yes, they're spoken, not even close to RORORO), he also had his part in some of the melodic aspects on the recent albums too. Even though the last couple of albums are among their heaviest, they also had perhaps the best vocal harmonies of any DT album.

Now that he's gone, I feel that particular aspect is less prominent on ADTOE. Obviously ADTOE has many great harmonies (such as the LNF chorus), but it doesn't have any of those great JLB/MP/JP 3 part harmonies that were one of my favourite aspects of recent DT, such as throughout ANTR, or the chorus for AROP. I wish that JP had done some of the harmonies in BTS. It would have added some great texture to it, and I don't think it takes anything away from JLB being the vocalist.

While some people like to ignore modern DT and believe it has to sound like IaW/SFAM to be real Dream Theater, they missed that DT have evolved over the past decade, and added a lot of fantastic elements that fans of those recent albums appreciate. I don't feel that ADTOE brought back the melodic element of DT, because at no point did it ever go missing.

they did add a lot of fantastic elements. unfortunately the overall quality of the songs declined over the last 10 years. you really think that SC has the same melodic element that previous albums had?

[snapple]

I have to say, in regards to melody, James is a beast at writing them. He ALWAYS should have. They're less predictable and more interesting IMO. However, TCOT chorus is chill inducing.

But I raise that a,

SUN, COME SHINE MY WAYYY
LET HEALING WATERS BURY ALL MAH PAINNNNNN

I mean, that part is so powerful. The lyrics, the way it's sung, the music behind it. Good lord, I'm getting an erection now.

Either way, I think 8VM is waaaay overrated. ACOS any day of the week over it.

[BlobVanDam]

they did add a lot of fantastic elements. unfortunately the overall quality of the songs declined over the last 10 years. you really think that SC has the same melodic element that previous albums had?

Aside from CM/TDEN which were more basic melodically, definitely.
ITPOE has a beautiful melodic recurring motif, and LaBrie's vocals are very melodic and expressive (aside from The Reckoning), and the entire outro of ITPOE pt 2 is insanely melodic and gives me chills every time.
TMOLS uses melody very well to create the haunting atmosphere of the song. The instrumental section is a bit whatever in that regard, but the rest of the song is very melodic, especially that outro section. And even though Forsaken is kind of average, being a "single", you've got the 3 part harmonies of the chorus, and the piano and guitar riffs are both quite melodic.

Aside from the two heavy tracks, SC puts just as much emphasis on melody as any other album. I think that fact gets forgotten due to CM and TDEN being such prominent tunes that don't display that side of their songwriting. But I love TDEN for being DT's most rhythmic song.

So yeah, I do say that SC has a strong melodic focus for the most part.

[Obfuscation]

Octavarium. Didn't even have to think about it.

[ShadowWalker]

You pretty much could put in most songs from DT's catalog up against Octavarium and there would be no way I would vote for 8V...

[Tis BOOLsheet]

I have to say, in regards to melody, James is a beast at writing them. He ALWAYS should have. They're less predictable and more interesting IMO. However, TCOT chorus is chill inducing.

But I raise that a,

SUN, COME SHINE MY WAYYY
LET HEALING WATERS BURY ALL MAH PAINNNNNN

I mean, that part is so powerful. The lyrics, the way it's sung, the music behind it. Good lord, I'm getting an erection now.

Either way, I think 8VM is waaaay overrated. ACOS any day of the week over it.

i highly doubt james writes the melodies

[Tis BOOLsheet]

they did add a lot of fantastic elements. unfortunately the overall quality of the songs declined over the last 10 years. you really think that SC has the same melodic element that previous albums had?

Aside from CM/TDEN which were more basic melodically, definitely.
ITPOE has a beautiful melodic recurring motif, and LaBrie's vocals are very melodic and expressive (aside from The Reckoning), and the entire outro of ITPOE pt 2 is insanely melodic and gives me chills every time.
TMOLS uses melody very well to create the haunting atmosphere of the song. The instrumental section is a bit whatever in that regard, but the rest of the song is very melodic, especially that outro section. And even though Forsaken is kind of average, being a "single", you've got the 3 part harmonies of the chorus, and the piano and guitar riffs are both quite melodic.

Aside from the two heavy tracks, SC puts just as much emphasis on melody as any other album. I think that fact gets forgotten due to CM and TDEN being such prominent tunes that don't display that side of their songwriting. But I love TDEN for being DT's most rhythmic song.

So yeah, I do say that SC has a strong melodic focus for the most part.

i meant in comparison to the albums before those. the things you mentioned about atmosphere and harmony dont have anything to do with being melodic. the melodic content of the album, which is not a lot, isn't even strong.