Wall Street Protests

[73109]

if their goal was to spread a message and have people pay attention to them, they just won.

That might mean something if they had a message to spread.

I could go through all 11 pages of text and copy and paste the numerous quotes found about the different messages these people were trying to get through, but that would be too much work.

Holy logical fallacy Numbers. Try again.

Premises:

A. "Occupy Wall Street" is happening
B. Occupy Wall Street is a protest
C. The point of a protest is to show fault in a system
D. The more people that listen to you and recognize the problem, the better
E. If C and D are true, those occupying wall street would want publicity, and if you give them publicity, you are helping their cause by giving them notice
F. This thread gives us knowledge of the protests
G. Knowledge of the protests is publicity

Conclusion:

H. Those who look at this thread are helping those occupying Wall Street

I mean, my knowledge of formal logic is not much, but that seems somewhat sound...I think.

[orcus116]

No, looking at this thread is in no way helping the protest. There is nothing that directly connects our discussion to any results that might spring up out of this. Anyone who is reading this thread is already aware of the protests so there is no new publicity.

[73109]

That is not true. I was not aware of these protests until this thread was brought to my attention. Now, I follow what is going on and am an active member of "the cause."

[Sigz]

Publicity means nothing if no one has any idea what the fuck you're talking about. Sure, there's all kinds of messages and goals being thrown around, but without any kind of central message it just makes them look disorganized and directionless.

[Super Dude]

I read an interesting op-ed that proposed that the point isn't a beginning, an end, or even a point, because the point is sustainability. In other words, the movement's gradual growth and length of continuation from there over time is the point.

And haven't I and a few other people already insisted over and over again that the central message of Occupy Wall Street is to get the government to act towards greater social, economic, and especially political equality?

[Sigz]

And haven't I and a few other people already insisted over and over again that the central message of Occupy Wall Street is to get the government to act towards greater social, economic, and especially political equality?

And that means what exactly? You ask a hundred people how you "get the government to act towards greater social, economic, and especially political equality" and you'll get a hundred different answers.

[MasterShakezula]

Firstly, I agree  with Superdude & Numbers regarding these protests.

Secondly, considering the great deal of distaste in the US towards the inequality of income and resultig inequality of representation, I'm bit surprised to see such lukewarm reception to a protest movement against it.

[73109]

there's all kinds of messages and goals being thrown around

Bingo, and the fact that there is no central goal can be said to be beneficial because those without any strong political agenda can latch on to one thing that irks them. At one protest you can have one dude that is preaching socialized medicine and another that is preaching the end of the war in the middle east. While they are two separate issues, both result in an influx of new "members" if you will because if the central message was ending the war, many of the socialize medicine folk won't be there, and vice versa. The many political agendas that are coming together are the thriving points of this entire movement.

[Sigz]

All that does is weaken the entire movement. Everyone gets a voice and no one gets heard.

[Super Dude]

Isn't that also at the heart of democracy? Plurality rather than supremacy?

[Sigz]

Sure, but we're not talking about democracy, we're talking about political protests, which can't be a fuckfest of political messages and still be effective.

[Super Dude]

Also to sorta back up Cole on his argument, I also wouldn't have known about the protest if not for this thread.

[Chino]

I think the protests are sending a very strong message. The fact that there is no clear cut message is what makes it great. It's not just one group bitching about one problem. It's many peoples all bitching about many problems. The message is that there are many people willing to protest along side people protesting something completely different. In reality everyone is there for the same problem... the lack of faith in our government to make any kind of honest and moral decission.

People think at these protests will accomplish nothing. I'm sure the same was thought when the original 22 people started protesting in Egypt. Politicians want to get reelected. If hundreds of thousands of people begin to protest (threaten their reelection), changes will be made.

[juice]

I agree with Sigz.  They need a specific unified message.  In Egypt they had one, they wanted to get rid of Mubarak.  During the civil rights movement the protesters wanted to be treated equally.    Here the people are saying all kinds of things with no unified support for something specific.

[Riceball]

You know what, as much as it irks me that those protesting don't really seem to know what they are protesting (as a collective, anyway); I'm becoming more and more hopeful that it will achieve something.

Mind you, I'm in Australia, so it doesn't directly matter to me very much. But indirectly, if the protests push US politicians in the 'right' direction (right being subjective), I guess they are making a positive contribution to discourse.

Although, I'll agree with those who earlier said Wall Street seems a peculiar place to stage the demonstrations - it doesn't send the right message IMO. Campaign outside political offices or in Washington; those on Wall Street will just go into their workplace and carry on with their day as far as I can see. I mean, I work for my state's chamber of commerce (chambers often get critisised for their role in bad political systems), and if people protested outside I wouldn't really care. I'd probably stand at the window and watch, but thats about it. Politicans, by their nature and role, have to react to this kind of ground roots movement - joe average investment banker sees the protest and thinks what can I buy or sell to leverage off this.

[zxlkho]

I agree with Sigz.  They need a specific unified message.  In Egypt they had one, they wanted to get rid of Mubarak.  During the civil rights movement the protesters wanted to be treated equally.    Here the people are saying all kinds of things with no unified support for something specific.

Those issues were much simpler though. There's so much that needs fixing right now that it's a lot harder to name a specific goal for the movement.

[Super Dude]

You know what, as much as it irks me that those protesting don't really seem to know what they are protesting (as a collective, anyway); I'm becoming more and more hopeful that it will achieve something.

Mind you, I'm in Australia, so it doesn't directly matter to me very much. But indirectly, if the protests push US politicians in the 'right' direction (right being subjective), I guess they are making a positive contribution to discourse.

Although, I'll agree with those who earlier said Wall Street seems a peculiar place to stage the demonstrations - it doesn't send the right message IMO. Campaign outside political offices or in Washington; those on Wall Street will just go into their workplace and carry on with their day as far as I can see. I mean, I work for my state's chamber of commerce (chambers often get critisised for their role in bad political systems), and if people protested outside I wouldn't really care. I'd probably stand at the window and watch, but thats about it. Politicans, by their nature and role, have to react to this kind of ground roots movement - joe average investment banker sees the protest and thinks what can I buy or sell to leverage off this.

I mean as far as I can see, the fact that it started at Wall Street doesn't matter anymore, what with Occupy Milwaukee and Occupy Oregon and all those other random protests that are now popping up across the country.

[Riceball]

Occupy Oregon.....?

Indeed.

I suppose you are right there, they've ended up being the catalyst for a broader-based protest movement across the country.

[Perpetual Change]

Well, this thread has certainly gotten interesting in the past week. 

This is kinda off-topic, but I just wanted to apologize for being a dick here a couple pages back. Sure, what Praxis said really pissed me off. But it wasn't helpful to lash out at him publicly like that at all, especially if I was going to make it personal. I thank everyone who had my back through that episode, but I hope you guys realize that I was being a dumbass so please don't try and follow suit.

So, with that said, sorry everyone... including and especially Praxis (if he himself hasn't gotten whacked by now too-- I really don't know ).

[Super Dude]

Whatever the case he stopped posting a while ago, so idk. Anyway, now that you're back, any new thoughts on how the protest movement's developed in your absence?

[Perpetual Change]

I've haven't been looking at it too much, but if the whole point (in general) was to get a discussion on economic justice going, the the protest has definitely been successful. After being ignored for the first week or so the protesters have managed to get the coverage they were clamoring for* and this issue will be one of national discussion now. I'm very interested to see how this plays out in the subsequent debates and elections.

Other than that, I don't really have much to add. I notice people complaining that the protests aren't organized or ideologically clear enough, which I honestly don't get. When has a protest ever been that way?

*I'm not sure how much coverage that is in the US, but I will say that China Central Television has been eating this stuff up. I still have trouble understanding the news, but they've spent a lot of time covering this and most of it has been of the "America's such a horrible place! Look at how pissed people are!" variety

[kirksnosehair]

Firstly, I agree  with Superdude & Numbers regarding these protests.

Secondly, considering the great deal of distaste in the US towards the inequality of income and resultig inequality of representation, I'm bit surprised to see such lukewarm reception to a protest movement against it.

You have to remember, though, that this is the United States of America.  In this country, during each election cycle, millions and millions of citizens go to the polls and vote for candidates who take economic positions that are 100% directly opposite of what is in their own financial best interests. 

It's something I've always found absolutely astonishing, but, well, there it is.

[Super Dude]

Firstly, I agree  with Superdude & Numbers regarding these protests.

Secondly, considering the great deal of distaste in the US towards the inequality of income and resultig inequality of representation, I'm bit surprised to see such lukewarm reception to a protest movement against it.

You have to remember, though, that this is the United States of America.  In this country, during each election cycle, millions and millions of citizens go to the polls and vote for candidates who take economic positions that are 100% directly opposite of what is in their own financial best interests. 

It's something I've always found absolutely astonishing, but, well, there it is.

1. Candidates can lie in their campaigns
2. That's actually not always true (that candidates take positions opposite of mine, I mean)
3. Even if it is, if that's all there is to offer, do we have any other choice?

I've haven't been looking at it too much, but if the whole point (in general) was to get a discussion on economic justice going, the the protest has definitely been successful. After being ignored for the first week or so the protesters have managed to get the coverage they were clamoring for* and this issue will be one of national discussion now. I'm very interested to see how this plays out in the subsequent debates and elections.

Other than that, I don't really have much to add. I notice people complaining that the protests aren't organized or ideologically clear enough, which I honestly don't get. When has a protest ever been that way?

*I'm not sure how much coverage that is in the US, but I will say that China Central Television has been eating this stuff up. I still have trouble understanding the news, but they've spent a lot of time covering this and most of it has been of the "America's such a horrible place! Look at how pissed people are!" variety

PC, where are you from? Are you an American, Chinese, Chinese American? I've always wondered.

[Perpetual Change]

I'm an American, but I've been in Hong Kong for the past year.

[Super Dude]

I see. What brought you to Hong Kong?

Anywho, just found this flyer which is apparently being passed around the Wall Street protest: https://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Bankster-Flyer.pdf

I'm all for these guys and their being mad as hell, but if that's what they're after I'll start to have some doubts. I don't see what's wrong with allowing the government to monopolize the creation and dispersion of currency. Or maybe it's just that the theory espoused in the flyer just sounds plain crazy; if anything, if the public is given the monopoly on the production and distribution of money, it's more likely we'll counterfeit and the entire economic system will go to hell in a handbasket.

[MasterShakezula]

If that's the federal reserve they're talking about in that flyer, that's actually a private company, though I could be totally misinformed.


Still, though I hear some people blaming it on everything they dislike in the U.S., I can't see how it's causing more harm than would be done by Letting any ole' Joe have the means to creating currency.

[Perpetual Change]

I see. What brought you to Hong Kong?

Anywho, just found this flyer which is apparently being passed around the Wall Street protest: https://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Bankster-Flyer.pdf

I'm all for these guys and their being mad as hell, but if that's what they're after I'll start to have some doubts. I don't see what's wrong with allowing the government to monopolize the creation and dispersion of currency. Or maybe it's just that the theory espoused in the flyer just sounds plain crazy; if anything, if the public is given the monopoly on the production and distribution of money, it's more likely we'll counterfeit and the entire economic system will go to hell in a handbasket.

Yeah. I mean, ideologically, there seems to be a bunch of separate groups trying to control the discussion. But they discussion is being raised, which, again, is what I think is the big accomplishment of the protests.

[Super Dude]

Yeah, so that's good. I'm just hoping the discussion might possibly be tempered to regulate the Fed or severely limit the Fed, rather than ending it altogether. I still have no idea what's actually wrong with allowing governments to monopolize the creation and distribution of money; I can only imagine a publicly-run system would run into far more fraud for rather obvious reasons.

[antigoon]

Yeah, the Fed isn't going anywhere. But I actually see that flyer as a good thing -- shows the Paul libertarian types and the far left are coming together (at least, in a purely physical sense ) 

[emindead]

I see. What brought you to Hong Kong?

Anywho, just found this flyer which is apparently being passed around the Wall Street protest: https://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Bankster-Flyer.pdf

I'm all for these guys and their being mad as hell, but if that's what they're after I'll start to have some doubts. I don't see what's wrong with allowing the government to monopolize the creation and dispersion of currency. Or maybe it's just that the theory espoused in the flyer just sounds plain crazy; if anything, if the public is given the monopoly on the production and distribution of money, it's more likely we'll counterfeit and the entire economic system will go to hell in a handbasket.

What an amazing flyer. Thanks for sharing it.

Getting mad is good, knowing why you are mad is great, doing something about that is excellent.

[PraXis]

None of these people are employable:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2047168/Occupy-Wall-Street-protesters-make-love-class-war-sex-drugs-tap.html 

[orcus116]

Dailymail

[PraXis]

Dailymail

What about them? They have pictures from the protest in NYC.

[AcidLameLTE]

I remember the time the Daily Mail was a good news source.

Good one, right?

[PraXis]

I remember the time the Daily Mail was a good news source.

Good one, right?

What kind of paper are they? The only UK sites I see links to (i.e. google news and other forums) are Daily Mail and the Guardian.