Wall Street Protests

[snapple]

I heard from a not credible source that they were getting arrested for starting cooking fires and shit like that when it is illegal to do so. Anybody confirm this?

That much I have NOT heard. Just that they were blocking every day activities from happening, like DRIVING IN FUCKING NEW YORK CITY. 

[orcus116]

Starting an open fire in a city without a permit? Hell yes that's illegal.

[Super Dude]

No offense to the libertarians on board, but I can't tell the difference between libertarian disdain for government and anarchist disdain for authority.

A couple minutes of research/4th grade or above thinking would rememdy that

Okay, seriously?  This is okay now?

Perhaps from hyperinflation from the print-happy Messiah in Chief, not because of stock brokers. 

You realize the Fed is one of the things being protested by a lot of people, right? I saw multiple "end the fed" signs out there. It's definitely part of the agenda.

Yeah, that's nice and all, but overall I don't see the majority of the crowd knowing what they really want. It feels in the vein of "What we want? -We don't know! But we want it now" protests.

That's not because the people are clueless, it's because everyone is there for a difference reason. Honestly, that's still more than the libertarians have done on their own. If there's every been a group that makes a big show of chest-pounding on the internet and consistently fails to materialize in the "real world" time and time again, it's the libertarians.

Damn it. You got yourself banned. But anyway, is your point "SOMETHING must be done? It doesn't matter what it is, SOMETHING must be done?" Because when I hear that they are protesting against Wall Street I see it in two ways, 1) Let's abolish Wall Street because it is evil and the source of our economic woes. 2) Don't let Wall Street (which it is not inherently evil) do transactions with money that are from Corporations (who basically have stolen it from the ordinary citizens because the government gave these benefits to once small/medium companies that turned into Corporations). If they were protesting in Wall Street because they want to end and Corporatism in the USA, I'm all for it. But if they want to just end Wall Street, then I don't think that what they are doing is right.

So what would you suggest we do?

I think, for starters, organize themselves. Let the good ideas in and drop down the baseless ramble.

1. How are they not organizing themselves?  From what I've heard it has really come together the last few days.

2. I think "good ideas" is based purely on opinion.  What's wrong with it being baseless anyway?  Isn't the whole point that the protest has brought people from both sides of the political spectrum together?

[yeshaberto]

No offense to the libertarians on board, but I can't tell the difference between libertarian disdain for government and anarchist disdain for authority.

A couple minutes of research/4th grade or above thinking would rememdy that

Okay, seriously?  This is okay now?

no, it is not!  livehard, that is not cool. 

[livehard]

No offense to the libertarians on board, but I can't tell the difference between libertarian disdain for government and anarchist disdain for authority.

A couple minutes of research/4th grade or above thinking would rememdy that

Okay, seriously?  This is okay now?

no, it is not!  livehard, that is not cool.

WHAT!?!?! ARE YOU KIDDING?!?!?!

Unbelievable if you think that knowing the difference between libertarianism disain for overreaching government and anarchist contempt for authority takes more than what I said you are out of this world.  It is BEYOND EASY to tell the difference and I think that it takes nothing more than a couple of minutes of reasearch and the ability to know words on the 4th grade level.  I NEVER insulted the poster.  I simply instructed him to do research.

Here superdude, I will give you a big hint as to the difference: the libertarian respect and advocacy of the enforcement of property rights and freedom by the policing of the people by the government usually surpasses that of anyone from another party.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

Arguably, it's fundamentally the same thing. Authority = government in this case.

So, even though we all know that they ARE different, on the surface it appears to be the same in principle.

BTW, you insult Super Dude again and I will send you back to the dark ages

[yeshaberto]

livehard, you are not off to a good start.  cut out the needless insults.

this is your final warning, otherwise prepare for a week off

[Super Dude]

Not to mention a seeming contradiction I noticed in your explanation:

the libertarian respect and advocacy of the enforcement of property rights and freedom by the policing of the people by the government usually surpasses that of anyone from another party.

If PraXis is to be believed, isn't the whole point of libertarianism to undo all government imposition over property rights and freedom?  At least the impression I've gotten from him is that the libertarian "slogan" is "I have a natural right to my property and freedom that cannot be challenged by government or society."

[73109]

3 in five minutes!

To add to the conversation...I like the idea of anarchy, it just won't happen. In a perfect world, we'd all live in a socialist anarchy, but whatevs.

[livehard]

I simply did not insult him.  There was absolutely no insult there and if someone misinterpreted that, than it is very unfortunate. I emphatically disagree that the difference is conspicous.  It is CRYSTAL clear to ANYONE that has read the definition of Libertarianism and anarchism can EASILY tell the difference.

For someone who has a decent reading comprehension, a TINY amount of research easily reveals the difference.  THAT IS NOT AN INSULT TO ANYONE, it is a FACT.

[Super Dude]

3 in five minutes!

To add to the conversation...I like the idea of anarchy, it just won't happen. In a perfect world, we'd all live in a socialist anarchy, but whatevs.

If Men were but angels...

[73109]

Dude...I actually learned that shit today! That is the 51st Federalist paper!

[Super Dude]

 

[bosk1]

Hey, aren't the federalist papers, like, 200-something years old?  That means they're irrelevant to SuperDude.

[livehard]

Not to mention a seeming contradiction I noticed in your explanation:

the libertarian respect and advocacy of the enforcement of property rights and freedom by the policing of the people by the government usually surpasses that of anyone from another party.

If PraXis is to be believed, isn't the whole point of libertarianism to undo all government imposition over property rights and freedom?  At least the impression I've gotten from him is that the libertarian "slogan" is "I have a natural right to my property and freedom that cannot be challenged by government or society."

Edit: it can be challenged by society and it is a VERY VERY important function of government to police these rights, and to also enforce and decide penalties to enfracting against those rights.  THAT is the main difference.  I can sue you on the basis that you hurt me or my property, and the government needs to be there to enforce that you did not, and that if you did, that you pay for the damages.  Thats the difference.

I hope that that helps clear the difference between the two as they are very important distinctions as I feel that anarchism shows an abandonment of logic and that Libertarianism is the shinning example of the usage of logic and reason.

[Super Dude]

Hey, aren't the federalist papers, like, 200-something years old?  That means they're irrelevant to SuperDude.

Not totally irrelevant, but I won't swear by 'em.  I sincerely wish someone would go and write up a new manifesto more relevant to our modern world.

[73109]

Hey, aren't the federalist papers, like, 200-something years old?  That means they're irrelevant to SuperDude.

Just because they are old, it doesn't mean that what they say is totally outdated.

Now...the Constitution...

[Super Dude]

Actually he's referring to the fact that I won't base my political worldview on outdated documents and theories.

[yeshaberto]

I simply did not insult him.  There was absolutely no insult there and if someone misinterpreted that, than it is very unfortunate. I emphatically disagree that the difference is conspicous.  It is CRYSTAL clear to ANYONE that has read the definition of Libertarianism and anarchism can EASILY tell the difference.

For someone who has a decent reading comprehension, a TINY amount of research easily reveals the difference.  THAT IS NOT AN INSULT TO ANYONE, it is a FACT.

you didn't help your case.
plus I was just informed that you were already warned today.
enjoy a week off

[livehard]

Perhaps I can eloquate the difference more clearly with an on topic example:

Anarchism:  these protesters can do whatever the want, wherever they want.  The detractors can do the same.

Libertarianism:  The government is both necissary and desireable to stop these people from harming me or my property on my Wall St office.

[73109]

I think the first sounds cooler.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

Hey, aren't the federalist papers, like, 200-something years old?  That means they're irrelevant to SuperDude.

Why is it okay for you to mock others' beliefs but not when anyone else does it?

[bosk1]

I simply did not insult him.  There was absolutely no insult there and if someone misinterpreted that, than it is very unfortunate. I emphatically disagree that the difference is conspicous.  It is CRYSTAL clear to ANYONE that has read the definition of Libertarianism and anarchism can EASILY tell the difference.

For someone who has a decent reading comprehension, a TINY amount of research easily reveals the difference.  THAT IS NOT AN INSULT TO ANYONE, it is a FACT.

[bosk1]

Hey, aren't the federalist papers, like, 200-something years old?  That means they're irrelevant to SuperDude.

Why is it okay for you to mock others' beliefs but not when anyone else does it?

Be careful, or I may perhaps gently mock you as well.

[millahh]

It's turned into another leftist/anarchist rally that is nothing but anti-capitalism and wealth/achievement envy.. and I'm curious.. how old are the left-leaning members on this forum... most likely still getting a free ride from mommy and daddy. Once these people actually work a few years and are in their late 20s like myself, they will see the light.

You fail at caricature.  I'm one of the "lefties"...I'm in my 30s, and am a very-well compensated professional with my doctorate.  And I don't feel entitled to anyone's money...I just have a sense of compassion.

[millahh]

By the way...I know I'm not the law in here anymore, but I think everyone would be very well-served to read the old "READ BEFORE POSTING" sticky:

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=9776.0

[PraXis]

Hi all, I'm sorry I went a bit too far. I'll tone it down a bit. 

[antigoon]

People are getting a little testy in here I see

Anyway -- I feel that this is somewhat related, so I'll post it here:

What do you guys think of Dylan Ratigan's Get Money Out movement? I don't care if you think it'll work or not, I just want to know your thoughts on the premise. Would you support a candidate who ran with a goal like this?. The broadest shared sentiment of the Occupy Wall Street movement that EVERYONE can relate to is that we (the 99%, in their terms) do not control this country. Our politicians are bought and paid for in broad daylight. Who benefits from it? Not us.

https://www.getmoneyout.com/about

[MasterShakezula]

I think that would be great if it actually happens. 

[zepp-head]

https://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme/

 

[Riceball]

So, solving America's problems would involve:
 - Throwing up tariff barriers to all goods and services.
 - Mandating a minimum wage that, as far as I can guess, is probably double the minimum now
 - Legislating that said minimum wage is paid to everyone, regardless of whether they are employed
 - Spend a trillion bucks on planting trees
 - Let anyone into the country
 - "Forgive" all debts

Guys, c'mon, the right are the ones who normally come up with the crackpot "demands". Leave it to them. Just concentrate on sitting around and making a slightly-more-than-negligable contribution to the society that you are denegrating.

[Super Dude]

So, solving America's problems would involve:
 - Throwing up tariff barriers to all goods and services.
 - Mandating a minimum wage that, as far as I can guess, is probably double the minimum now
 - Legislating that said minimum wage is paid to everyone, regardless of whether they are employed
 - Spend a trillion bucks on planting trees
 - Let anyone into the country
 - "Forgive" all debts

Guys, c'mon, the right are the ones who normally come up with the crackpot "demands". Leave it to them. Just concentrate on sitting around and making a slightly-more-than-negligable contribution to the society that you are denegrating.

Not sure if srs... :-S

[Riceball]

I've had a bit more of a look around their website now, and it looks like these are "suggestions" from one particular user - I thought it was their final list of demands. In which case, as I hope came across in that post, they are a bunch of crack pots.

Even still, having a list of demands which would throw the US, and probably the world, back to cave man times, is not helpful. Its inflammatory. And it pissess raationalists like me off

[Rathma]

What should be done:

a) Compartmentalize the system by splitting up the large banks. Only then will society at large begin to be separated from the banks' gambling speculation risks.
b) Arrest the CEOs and executives of banks that are committing fraud. This will massively reduce the rampant crime in the financial sector.
c) Stop appointing ex-Wall Street business people to positions in the Fed, Treasury and regulatory institutions. Speculative bankers don't give a shit about the economy (nor about their own banks if they're TBTF) since they can profit in both up and down markets, so keep them out of government.

[PraXis]

https://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme/

 

"These demands will create so many jobs it will be completely impossible to fill them without an open borders policy."

 

Thanks, I needed a good laugh this morning!