Saudi Arabia to allow women to vote

[Scheavo]

https://news.yahoo.com/saudi-king-allows-women-vote-local-elections-130210104.html

Saudi King Abdullah announced Sunday that the nation's women will gain the right to vote and run as candidates in local elections to be held in 2015 in a major advancement for the rights of women in the deeply conservative Muslim kingdom.

At first glance, I think this is an interesting event, but I'm not sure what to make of it yet. I think it's a good sign, even if it's only because it shows that the Saudi Royal Family doesn't seem to be intent on violence to solve it's problems (compared to other many other countries in the Middle East). As to why that is, I'm not sure, but I'm also not sure if it'll make any pragmatic difference.

What do people make of this? Is it for show, or a sign of a continued democratic movement the Middle East, when combined when the Arab Spring? Is it just another sign of American influence in the region?

[GuineaPig]

What's with the thread title?

[MetalMike06]

You mean Saudi Arabia right?

[Scheavo]

What's with the thread title?

Holy shit, that's the biggest brain fart I've had in a while. Took me a lil while to get it, cause some mod was nice enough to fix it for me hehe.

So beyond my retardedness, what do people think about this?

[rumborak]

It's interesting, but tbh it's a bigger deal in Western countries because of their ignorance about women's status in Muslim countries. Westerners only see women in burkas etc. and think that they must be at the complete bottom at the rung. But, women are actually highly respected in Muslim countries, as the female prime minister shows in Pakistan.
So, while this event certainly has a good-size magnitude to it, it's not a watershed development in the Muslim world.

rumborak

[Progmetty]

Exactly, this is the first I hear about it.
Westerners adore the image of the women in burkas doing whatever her husband says as a slave against her will, her will being to show her legs, party and flashing on girls gone wild. I think they also like to incorporate an image of sexual torture in Muslim women, like there's some crazy S&M stuff going on in Muslim bed rooms
I know there's been abuse against Muslim women and some still goes on today. But I know of it, I've never seen it happen in real life ever, neither in Egypt nor in UAE. Closest instance is when a girl in my high school was crying one day and I asked what was wrong so she told me her younger brother doesn't let her look out the window cause he thinks the neighbor kid watches her and I thought it was disgusting that a younger brother can TELL her what to do as an order just cause he's the male.
Of course there's far worse cases with beating wives and such but as I said I've never personally seen it or met someone who've seen it.

[Scheavo]

Say whatever you want, Women have less liberties in the Middle East (note that I'm not saying in Muslim countries, because I don't really think Islam has anthing to do with this) than in the Western world. This is a major part of modernization of a society, and to say that countries in the middle east are modernizing is a vastly important thing to consider.

The event is still meaningful in a country where Women can't drive, and daily lives are highly segregated. If it was alone as an event in the Middle East this year, maybe it would mean nothing, but I'm asking what it means in terms of the context of the Middle East? A popular protest in Saudi Arabia for the right to vote means a concession is made, instead of a violent crackdown like we have seen elsewhere.

[Progmetty]

It doesn't mean anything in the context of the Middle East but I agree it definitely means a lot in Saudi Arabia as it's a brand new direction to them. SA is one of few Arabian countries where it's internal affairs are of no consequence on other Arabs. Especially in a matter like this cause I cannot for the life of me think of another Arabic country that doesn't allow women to vote or drive.
If you mean it's a compromise made by the Saudi monarchy to please their people in matters they were stubborn about before to avoid an uprising against the government then yeah that's very possible too.
But the Saudis would never revolt in a manner similar to the North African Arabs or Syrians. They wouldn't take it that far, the people not the government. They're completely a different nation character wise, I can tell you that part for sure and it goes for most of the Arabian gulf countries.

[Scheavo]

But the Saudis would never revolt in a manner similar to the North African Arabs or Syrians. They wouldn't take it that far, the people not the government. They're completely a different nation character wise, I can tell you that part for sure and it goes for most of the Arabian gulf countries.

Interesting, thanks for the amazingly different and informed view point.

Just out of curiosity, does the fact that it's the Islamic birth place, and where Mecca is, factor into this, or is it something else?

 

[Progmetty]

Nah it's the oil my good sir. The born-into-wealth status Saudis have been accustomed to for the last 5 generations at least. There's a degree of hardship they cannot endure, some of their intellects admit that openly.
A complete political breakdown would bring their life styles to a complete halt and if that happens they will fight the protesters and the condemn the revolution in a second.
Their youth between the ages of 25-35 aspire to luxuries defined by what they can and cannot do in their countries, so their dreams are limited to traveling around the world doing just that. You must have met/seen some Saudi students in the U.S as I see them often in Texas, their definition of manly is how much you can drink, party and not worry about spending. Girls, cars and fashion are their priorities. That's why a person like Bin Laden had an enigmatic edge in the eyes of the rest of the Arabs, here you have a usual born-into-wealth Saudi who gave all that up to fight for his convictions knowing what horrific life style awaits him, as opposed for Ayman Elzawahri his Egyptian second in command who never had a chance of wealth or status in Egypt and his actions and choices are considered understandable as a classic got-nothing-to-lose terrorist.
My point is that the rebel thing is uncharacteristic of them and those with convictions strong enough to make them endure hardship would either break easily or be overwhelmingly outnumbered by those afraid to lose their life styles. No matter what bugs you; there would never be a stronger motive to an enduring revolt than poverty imo.
I'm not by any means saying their bad people as I cannot imagine myself behaving much differently if money has never been a problem in my life since birth.
Religion is more out of the picture in the gulf area than you would ever imagine as a Westerner looking at the picture from outside.

[El Barto]

Excellent post, Metty.

[Progmetty]

Thanks

[Scheavo]

Religion is more out of the picture in the gulf area than you would ever imagine as a Westerner looking at the picture from outside.

I guess I should clarify why I asked, becuase I admit it does sound like I think it's all about religion; Mecca is a place of pilgrimage, so in a way whoever controls Mecca has a lot of foreign, political and religious influences placed upon them.


And what, do you think, would happen in Saudi Arabia if the oil dried up? Or, I should say, when (either countries move past it, or it dries up). The lifestyle couldn't be afforded.

[Progmetty]

I guess I should clarify why I asked, becuase I admit it does sound like I think it's all about religion; Mecca is a place of pilgrimage, so in a way whoever controls Mecca has a lot of foreign, political and religious influences placed upon them.

I dunno if I got this right but it seems to me you have the impression Mecca runs similar to the Vatican. There's no Pope-like personality for Mecca, both political and religious influence wise. The place matters much more than the man. The title of the king of Saudi Arabia known in the English speaking world is "Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques" and direct translation from Arabic would make it "The Servant of the Honorable Mosques", so in Islam the person who rules the land of Mecca is regarded as a trusted guard who's ruling comes from the rules of Islam and Muslims are required to remove him of that position if he disregards the rules or uses his powers unfairly.
So whoever controls Mecca is still bound by rules. In other words they can never do anything radically different than what they do now.
Like for example the ruler of Mecca can't ban Muslims from any country from coming to Mecca to go to Haj (main Islamic religious rituals in Mecca).
He can however issue a decree of an all-out war against a threat to Islam or Muslims. But in today's world that order won't be carried out unless it's unmistakably evident that it's the only way. That's Jihad.
He can't tell people it's okay to drink alcohol or have premarital sex or anything that Islam has rules against.
Most Arabs -especially Egyptians- are highly critical of the Saudi monarchy and don't take them as a source of religious or political guidance.
Hope that came closer to what you were asking about.

And what, do you think, would happen in Saudi Arabia if the oil dried up? Or, I should say, when (either countries move past it, or it dries up). The lifestyle couldn't be afforded.

I really don't know about that but I imagine it as an almost post-apocalyptic world for them.
Mecca is a never ending source of religious tourism for Saudi Arabia because of the Haj month and Omra (also religious rituals) through out the year. I imagine when oil runs out -which is pretty far in the future if you ask me as an drilling man- that the tourism will be their main source of income. But it probably wouldn't be enough for them. I really dunno.
The running joke among Arabs is that they were shepherds before the oil and they will be shepherds after the oil.

[Scheavo]

I guess I should clarify why I asked, becuase I admit it does sound like I think it's all about religion; Mecca is a place of pilgrimage, so in a way whoever controls Mecca has a lot of foreign, political and religious influences placed upon them.

I dunno if I got this right but it seems to me you have the impression Mecca runs similar to the Vatican. There's no Pope-like personality for Mecca, both political and religious influence wise. The place matters much more than the man. The title of the king of Saudi Arabia known in the English speaking world is "Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques" and direct translation from Arabic would make it "The Servant of the Honorable Mosques", so in Islam the person who rules the land of Mecca is regarded as a trusted guard who's ruling comes from the rules of Islam and Muslims are required to remove him of that position if he disregards the rules or uses his powers unfairly.
So whoever controls Mecca is still bound by rules. In other words they can never do anything radically different than what they do now.
Like for example the ruler of Mecca can't ban Muslims from any country from coming to Mecca to go to Haj (main Islamic religious rituals in Mecca).
He can however issue a decree of an all-out war against a threat to Islam or Muslims. But in today's world that order won't be carried out unless it's unmistakably evident that it's the only way. That's Jihad.
He can't tell people it's okay to drink alcohol or have premarital sex or anything that Islam has rules against.
Most Arabs -especially Egyptians- are highly critical of the Saudi monarchy and don't take them as a source of religious or political guidance.
Hope that came closer to what you were asking about.

You've had great answers, but that bold part is pretty much what I'm getting at, or trying to.

Thanks,

[Rathma]

What do people make of this? Is it for show, or a sign of a continued democratic movement the Middle East, when combined when the Arab Spring? Is it just another sign of American influence in the region?

If by American influence you American political influence, no. Pretty sure America doesn't care if women can or can't vote in Saudi Arabia!

[Scheavo]

America is heavily involved in promoting Democracy in the Middle East, or at least we claim to be. Ya, I know, we must want the oil... but we inherently view democracies as allies, so there's still that oil thing.