Author Topic: Another warrantless wiretapping thread  (Read 1286 times)

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Offline El Barto

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Another warrantless wiretapping thread
« on: September 21, 2011, 03:07:16 PM »
Appeals Court OKs Challenge to Warrantless Electronic Spying

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A legal challenge questioning the constitutionality of a federal law authorizing warrantless electronic surveillance of Americans inched a step closer Wednesday toward resolution.

The 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, for the second time, rejected the Obama administration’s contention that it should toss a lawsuit challenging the 2008 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Amendments Act. Among other things, the government said the plaintiffs — Global Fund for Women, Global Rights, Human Rights Watch, International Criminal Defence Attorneys Association, The Nation magazine, PEN American Center, Service Employees International Union and others — don’t have standing to bring a constitutional challenge because they cannot demonstrate that they were subject to the eavesdropping or suffered hardships because of it.

The lawsuit, backed by the American Civil Liberties Union, was lodged within hours of the FISA Amendments Act (.pdf) being signed into law by President George W. Bush in July 2008. The legislation is being challenged because it allows the National Security Agency to electronically eavesdrop on Americans without a probable-cause warrant if one of the parties to the communication resides outside the United States and is suspected of a link to terrorism.

“It is the glory of our system that even our elected leaders must defend the legality of their conduct when challenged,” (.pdf) Judge Gerard Lynch wrote.

First off, this is really a non-story.  President Dickhead will invoke state secrets to quash the thing, just like President Dumbass used to do. 

I would like to point out a wonderful bit of reasoning that would have made Joseph Heller smile in his pants, though.  Nobody could sue without proper standing, which nobody had because they couldn't prove that they had been spied upon, but the entire state of surveillance now dictates that nobody can ever be informed that they're a target.  Nice work, people.

And then there's a question.  This (along with quite a bit of similarly questionable policy) has now been vehemently defended by two of the most despised presidents ever.  Who's left to support it?  When it was Dumbass insisting upon it's urgency, plenty of us said this is a very, very bad thing, only to have his apologists defend it to the best of their ability.  Now it's Obama decrying it's importance, so shouldn't the Dittoheads and FOX News minions be scared shitless about socialists and Chicagoans interfering with their rights to own guns and harass homos?  Why isn't the freaking tea-party all over this--they're the ones Herr Holder is probably most interested in checking out.

I have this mental picture of Epicview quietly constructing an EM insulated bunker under his home to evade the Obama jack-boots, and for once I would probably think him sane,  but apparently this is an area where people suddenly, magically trust Obama to be a good guy.  I don't get it. 
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline jsem

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Re: Another warrantless wiretapping thread
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2011, 07:32:22 AM »
America is going to turn into a police state sooner or later, and the people will obediently accept that.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Another warrantless wiretapping thread
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2011, 07:41:53 AM »
I mean I'll be honest, I am very much against this, but that doesn't mean I'll stop supporting Obama on principle.  And I know this is a tired argument, but imagine if Rick Perry is in office and the question is brought to him.  He may talk the freedom game but I won't be surprised in the least if he ends up being ten times worse.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Another warrantless wiretapping thread
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2011, 08:13:45 AM »
I mean I'll be honest, I am very much against this, but that doesn't mean I'll stop supporting Obama on principle.  And I know this is a tired argument, but imagine if Rick Perry is in office and the question is brought to him.  He may talk the freedom game but I won't be surprised in the least if he ends up being ten times worse.
Perry would be the same in the liberty department,  just as McCain would have been or anybody else who get's themselves appointed president.  I'm just puzzled why nobody seems to care anymore.  I mean,  only Bush-haters cared 5 years ago, but now that Bush Jr. is in office,  everybody thinks it's fine and dandy.  I kind of expected the opposite.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Another warrantless wiretapping thread
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2011, 08:15:12 AM »
I mean personally I still hold out hope that Obama will allow the PATRIOT Act to expire.  I'm not basing that on anything, but if he doesn't he will essentially lose his entire base.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Another warrantless wiretapping thread
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2011, 08:17:50 AM »
He's spent 3 years defending it, adding to it, and reinforcing it.  Besides the fact that both parties in Congress are too chicken-shit to speak out against it for fear that they'll be labeled soft.  Lastly, is of course the very real truth that the government, any government,  doesn't cede power it's been granted. 
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline jsem

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Re: Another warrantless wiretapping thread
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2011, 08:33:43 AM »
There are but a few vocal opponents of the Patriot Act in the US, which is terrible. It would never have passed 12 years ago, people would've been out in the streets... But some people apparently think it's OK that the government denies their liberties in order to increase security.

Benjamin Franklin once said: Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety


Offline XJDenton

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Re: Another warrantless wiretapping thread
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2011, 08:38:00 AM »
What about non-essential liberty for permanent security?
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Offline antigoon

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Re: Another warrantless wiretapping thread
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2011, 08:54:02 AM »
How does anyone even believe Obama might do the right thing when it comes to things like this? Because he's a "good guy," while people like Perry seem conniving? Seems like they're one in the same in that regard.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Another warrantless wiretapping thread
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2011, 09:10:35 AM »
Shoot.  I thought this was another Jani Lane thread.

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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Another warrantless wiretapping thread
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2011, 09:15:13 AM »
Oh, my lord.  :lol

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Another warrantless wiretapping thread
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2011, 09:42:23 AM »
There are but a few vocal opponents of the Patriot Act in the US, which is terrible. It would never have passed 12 years ago, people would've been out in the streets... But some people apparently think it's OK that the government denies their liberties in order to increase security.

Benjamin Franklin once said: Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

I tend to avoid subscribing to political philosophies that are more than 200 years old.
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Offline jsem

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Re: Another warrantless wiretapping thread
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2011, 10:03:29 AM »
Most political philosophies have a history of more than 200 years... what are you implying here :P


Also, I have not formulated myself well in this thread at all, but meh.

Offline antigoon

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Re: Another warrantless wiretapping thread
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2011, 06:24:34 AM »
The NYT actually did something good for a change:

"NYTimes Sues The Federal Government For Refusing To Reveal Its Secret Interpretation Of The PATRIOT Act"
Quote
We've been covering for a while now how Senators Ron Wyden and Mark Udall have been very concerned over the secret interpretation the feds have of one piece of the PATRIOT Act. They've been trying to pressure the government into publicly explaining how they interpret the law, because they believe that it directly contrasts how most of the public (and many elected officials) believe the feds are interpreting the law. While the two Senators continue to put pressure on the feds and to hint at the feds' interpretation, just the fact that the government won't even explain its own interpretation of the law seems ridiculous.

Given all of this, reporter Charlie Savage of the NY Times filed a Freedom of Information Act request to find out the federal government's interpretation of its own law... and had it refused. According to the federal government, its own interpretation of the law is classified. What sort of democracy are we living in when the government can refuse to even say how it's interpreting its own law? That's not democracy at all.

Julian Sanchez points us to the news that Savage and the NY Times have now sued the federal government for not revealing its interpretation of the PATRIOT Act, pointing out that if parts of the interpretation contain classified material, the Justice Department should black that out and reveal the rest, but simply refusing to reveal the interpretation entirely is a violation of the Freedom of Information Act. You can bet that the feds will do everything they can to get out of this lawsuit, just as they did with the various lawsuits concerning warrantless wiretapping. Here's hoping the court systems don't let them. No matter what you think of this administration (or the last one) and how it's handling the threat of terrorism, I'm curious how anyone can make the argument that the US government should not reveal how it interprets the very laws under which it's required to operate.

get those fuckers.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Another warrantless wiretapping thread
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2011, 08:15:10 AM »
Once again,  Uncle Sammy will invoke the State's Secrets Act and we'll never hear anything else. 
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline antigoon

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Re: Another warrantless wiretapping thread
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2011, 08:19:58 AM »
Let me enjoy this fleeting moment of optimism dammit :lol