Rank the 15+ min songs. (now including BAI/FFH)

[Vajra]

The last thread was going to turn into a sh*t storm, so I figured I'd revise the topic so it wouldn't cause any debates. Anyway, as I said before, since DT called "Far From Heaven" the musically-Part 1 of "Breaking All Illusions" we now have a new member of the 15+ minute family. So, figured it would be cool to rank them with this new addition. I wanted to see where it stands amongst the others.

Rankings:
1-A Change of Seasons & Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
2-Octavarium
3-In The Presence of Enemies
4-Breaking All Illusions (w/ Far From Heaven)
5-The Count Of Tuscany
6-A Nightmare To Remember
7-A Mind Beside Itself

Note: If you really feel you must lol, feel free to include ITNOG and TMOLS,  because they just about make the mark.

[FlyingBIZKIT]

1. SDOIT
2. ACOS
3. 8VM
4. FFH/BAI
5. TCOT
6. AMBI
7. ANTR
8. ITPOE

[Vajra]

8. ITPOE

Why you do this? 

[FlyingBIZKIT]

8. ITPOE

Why you do this? 

Well....to make it more fair:


1. SDOIT
2. ACOS
3. 8VM
4. FFH/BAI
5. TCOT
6. AMBI
7. ANTR






8. ITPOE

 

[InertSolo]

1. ACOS
2. TCOT
3. SDOIT
4. 8VM
5. AMBI
6. ANTR
7. FFH/BAI
8. ITPOE

Let it be known that I personally love all the tracks I listed above except 8 

[Metrovarium]

8VM
SDOIT
AMBI
FFH/BAI
ACOS
ITPOE
TCOT
ANTR

I like all of tracks 1-5, most of 6 and 7, and everything in ANTR up until DAY AFTER DAY, at which point the song significantly diminishes in quality.

[senecadawg2]

1-A Change of Seasons
2-Breaking All Illusions (w/ Far From Heaven)
3-Octavarium
4-The Count Of Tuscany
5-Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
6-A Mind Beside Itself
7-A Nightmare To Remember
8-In The Presence of Enemies

[Adami]

Why is FFH considered to be at all related to BAI?

They have literally nothing on common.

[Vajra]

Why is FFH considered to be at all related to BAI?

They have literally nothing on common.

Once the music itself ends in FFH, it goes right into BAI perfectly. And aside from that, FFH makes a huge reprisal at the end of BAI. I mean, the finale of BAI IS FFH.

[Adami]

I didn't catch that, I guess I'll have to listen to it again.

[Vajra]

I didn't catch that, I guess I'll have to listen to it again.

Sarcasm? lol from 11:00 onward in BAI, it's the same exact music from FFH. The vocal melodies are different, but instrumentally, it's the same.

[Adami]

Not sarcasm. FFH didn't have any musical instrumentation that really stuck in my memory, plus it's just piano and vocals really, so if a whole band is playing something musically that is similar to a piano progression that never stuck in my memory with a completely different vocal melody over it, it's hard to notice.

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

1. aCoS
2. 8VM
3. ItPoE
4. FFH/BAI
5. SDoIT
6. AMBI
7. tCoT
8. aNtR

[Vajra]

Not sarcasm. FFH didn't have any musical instrumentation that really stuck in my memory, plus it's just piano and vocals really, so if a whole band is playing something musically that is similar to a piano progression that never stuck in my memory with a completely different vocal melody over it, it's hard to notice.

lol, jk. 

[IronEarthTheater]

1. TCOT
2.  ITPOE
3. SDOIT
4.  FFH/BAI
5. ACOS
6. 8VM
7. ANTR
8.  AMBI

This was hard.  The Count is a solid #1, the other 7 could change given the day (and FFH/BAI is still sinking in).
 

[Snow_Dog]

1. ACoS
2. SDoIT
3. 8VM
4. FFH / BAI
5. AMBI
6. ItPoE
7. TCoT
8. ANtR

[Adami]

1. ACOS
2. 8vm
3. AMBI (Still not a song)
4. TCOT
5. 6DOIT
6. ANTR
7. ITPOE


I won't consider FFH and BAI one song, even if it does share a minor chord progression at the very end.

[Vajra]

1. TCOT
2.  ITPOE
3. SDOIT
4.  FFH/BAI
5. ACOS
6. 8VM
7. ANTR
8.  AMBI

This was hard.  The Count is a solid #1, the other 7 could change given the day (and FFH/BAI is still sinking in).

I must say, you have a very unique list by DT fan standards. What do you like about TCOT so much? Not hatin, just curious...

[Tumdace]

1. FFH/BAI
2. ACOS
3. 8VM
4. SDOIT
5. AMBI
6. ITPOE
7. TCOT
8. ANTR

[mooshinator]

Nice thread!  Here's my take, with some comments at the end:

1.  Octavarium
2.  A Mind Beside Itself
3.  A Change of Seasons
4.  SDOIT
5.  ITPOE
6.  FFH/BAI
7.  The Count of Tuscany
8.  The Ministry of Lost Souls
9.  In the Name of God
10. A Nightmare to Remember

Probably because I was a fan of older prog rock before becoming a Dream Theater fan, I have a huge soft spot for Octavarium.  SDOIT ranks a bit below the top simply because it's SOO long and gets a bit repetitive at that length.  But still, it's good enough for #4.

FFH/BAI I have trouble integrating into 1 song.  They don't feel "epic" to me, like a long song should.  That being said, I LOVE those songs.  Just not as "15+ minute" style songs.

TMOLS/ITNOG, same thing (but not as good as FFH/BAI).  They both feel like 10-12 minute songs with filler added to puff them up.  Good songs, but not epic.

The Count of Tuscany is probably better than I rated it, but that whole album left such a sour taste in my mouth that I never gave it much of a chance, much of that due to...

ANTR, which had so much potential until the growling vocals ripped the soul straight out of my body.

All IMO, of course.

[hefdaddy42]

FFH and BAI don't go together as one song.

[Vajra]

FFH and BAI don't go together as one song.

Musically they do.

When FFH's music stops at 3:49, and you begin BAI, it goes into it seamlessly. Then you have the minute long reprisal of the music from FFH in BAI at the end. Lyrically they may be different, but if you listen to it as one song, it doesn't sound odd or disjointed at all.

[Adami]

They don't go into each other, there's just no pause, that's not leading into one another.

And if there is a musical reprise, it's a few chords. Hardly worth noting.

[IronEarthTheater]

1. TCOT
2.  ITPOE
3. SDOIT
4.  FFH/BAI
5. ACOS
6. 8VM
7. ANTR
8.  AMBI

This was hard.  The Count is a solid #1, the other 7 could change given the day (and FFH/BAI is still sinking in).

I must say, you have a very unique list by DT fan standards. What do you like about TCOT so much? Not hatin, just curious...

TCOT is prob my second favorite DT song behind Learning to Live.  The lyrics don't bother me and it is otherwise perfect.  While I like all the other songs, at some point over the 15+ minutes, the songs lose me for a minute.  ACOS has a couple sections that kind of throw off the momentum (although I appreciate it more than I used to - thanks Jaffa).  ITPOE has "the Reckoning" that is just ok, I don't really care for Erotomania, Octavarium's intro is just a big too long, etc.  My favorite DT songs seem to be long, but not quite 15 min.  For example, LTL, Scarred, Glass Prison, Metropolis, Finally Free, Sacrificed Sons, Trial of Tears etc.  I actually think that if FFH/BAI were decoupled, BAI makes my top 10.  I also am currently in LOVE with Outcry. 

All that being said, with each of these it is nitpicking.  If I were to ever do a Top 50 list, Count would be 2 and all the others would be in the teens.  And DT is my 2nd favorite band, so it's not like that's shabby at all...

[Vajra]

They don't go into each other, there's just no pause, that's not leading into one another.

It flows into BAI just as smoothly as the transitions in various other DT epics.

And if there is a musical reprise, it's a few chords. Hardly worth noting.

Its an entire minute of the same music, lol c'mon. That is definitely worth noting. It's the finale of the song, that's very important.

Bottom line is, one of the members of DT (JP I think) even called FFH as being the Part 1 of BAI musically, so...

[KevShmev]

FFH and BAI don't go together as one song.

Musically they do.

When FFH's music stops at 3:49, and you begin BAI, it goes into it seamlessly. Then you have the minute long reprisal of the music from FFH in BAI at the end. Lyrically they may be different, but if you listen to it as one song, it doesn't sound odd or disjointed at all.

Except that it doesn't do that on the album.  Are we supposed to ignore the six or seven seconds of silence at the end? 

So, yeah, put me in the camp of those who do not consider this one song.  Calling these one song is like calling The Mirror and Lie one song, except that those actually do run into one another.

[Vajra]

FFH and BAI don't go together as one song.

Musically they do.

When FFH's music stops at 3:49, and you begin BAI, it goes into it seamlessly. Then you have the minute long reprisal of the music from FFH in BAI at the end. Lyrically they may be different, but if you listen to it as one song, it doesn't sound odd or disjointed at all.

Except that it doesn't do that on the album.  Are we supposed to ignore the six or seven seconds of silence at the end? 

So, yeah, put me in the camp of those who do not consider this one song.  Calling these one song is like calling The Mirror and Lie one song, except that those actually do run into one another.

It's all opinions man. For me, I like to listen to it as one song, even though it technically is two separate songs. They go together nicely, so I figured it was thread worthy. Nothing really to debate over. 

[i am fabio]

They don't go into each other, there's just no pause, that's not leading into one another.

And if there is a musical reprise, it's a few chords. Hardly worth noting.

[darkshade]

They're as much 1 song as WFS/LTL is one song. They're not, but they work well when listened to together. I agree, and it makes the "main" song more attractive.

[black_biff_stadler]

They're as much 1 song as WFS/LTL is one song. They're not, but they work well when listened to together. I agree, and it makes the "main" song more attractive.

I agree. No hostility intended here but we really should just focus on ranking the tracks instead of debating Vajra's criteria.

1-A Change of Seasons
2-A Mind Beside Itself
3-Breaking All Illusions (w/ Far From Heaven)
4-Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
5-A Nightmare To Remember
6-The Count Of Tuscany
7-Octavarium
8-In The Presence of Enemies

[The Letter M]

1. SDOIT
2. ACOS
3. 8VM
4. FFH/BAI
5. TCOT
6. AMBI
7. ANTR
8. ITPOE

Pretty much this.

-Marc.

[BlobVanDam]

I can't rank all of them, so I've gone with groups. SDOIT is the greatest thing ever, so that's on its own. I love both Octavarium and ANTR, so they're the next group. The other ones are very good, but quite as high up. And I've ditched AMBI and FFH/BAI because they're not 15+ minute songs. They're groups of semi related songs that happen to add up to over 15 minutes.

SDOIT

Octavarium
A Nightmare To Remember

A Change of Seasons
The Count Of Tuscany
In The Presence of Enemies

[theseoafs]

Far From Heaven and Breaking All Illusions (and A Mind Beside Itself, now that I think of it) are by no means one song, but here goes:

1. Octavarium
2. A Change of Seasons
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
4. FFH/BAI
5. AMBI
6. The Count of Tuscany
7. A Nightmare to Remember
8. In the Presence of Enemies

[reza_122]

1. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
2. Octavarium
3. A Change of Seasons
4. Breaking All Illusions/Far From Heaven
5. In The Presence of Enemies

[Zydar]

1. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
2. A Change Of Seasons
3. The Count of Tuscany
4. A Mind Beside Itself
5. A Nightmare To Remember
6. Octavarium
7. Far From Heaven + Breaking All Illusions
8. In The Presence of Enemies