Republican Tea Party Debate- Sept 12

[73109]

I agree. What we need is a cultural overhaul, which won't happen. My perfect culture is that of the ancient Athenians. Education was everything and the philosophers were the celebrities. There were debates in the streets and everyone participated in society. That won't happen here so what are we left with? A social darwinistic system of education that leaves those unable to learn down in the muck. Unfortunately, we need a social darwinistic education system but even that is not working because of No Child Left Behind. If you do well, go to college. If you don't, learn a trade. But no. Everyone is special.

[Perpetual Change]

Or, how about these "normal" kids get off of their asses and put some goddamn effort into their academic lives, for once?

All of the information required to get a passing grade on these fuckers can be acquired simply through attending class, paying an adequate amount of attention to the lectures, and doing the homework.

IT'S NOT ROCKET SCIENCE!

With all due respect, when did the bureaucrats of the system you say you despise decide that you were "honors" student material?  Because, from what I understand, most kids are arbitrarily put into one category or another at a very young age, which becomes their pre-ordained status unless they happen to do extraordinarily well or extraordinarily poorly, which isn't too likely given what their situation will become.

What I'm getting at here is, when you go through the entirety of grade school being told that you're one of the "smart" kids, it's a lot easier to feel like you should hold yourself up to that standard once you get to high school, even if you can't remember when, where, or why it was decided that you're "intelligent." Likewise, when you go through grade-school being told that you're are dumbass, you're a lot more likely spend your time after school's out hanging out with friends and getting high. Again, I'm not trying to take away whatever sense of pride having scored highly on standardized tests has given you, but from what I know who becomes an "honors" student and who becomes an "average" student is more based on deciding to categorize students at a young age based on some stupid test they took when they were 9 moreso than it is on any actual merit on behalf of the student himself. Again, people tend to meet the expectations that have been set for them. And once someone's been in one track for so long, it's really hard to move up or down no matter how well one does.

Sadly, there are a couple things that prevent positive outcomes from happening.

A: they don't learn useful trades, because they are lazy/unmotivated, or because they end up taking up illegal trades.

B: for them to be taking part in the education system and to care, it'll take more than the education system trying to make them.  It'll take a complete change in culture.  Their culture taints them before they even hit the elementary school doors, it seems.  Their worthless parents are just as much accountable for their upbringings and to blame for their failings. 

Disclaimer: this is the best I know; I never grew up in an empoverished neighborhood, so I don't have any experience with this waste of student body aside from coming across them at school.

....Or, maybe they've been grouped in with all the other "hood" kids and never told that they're intelligent. You know, I'll be willing to bed that if you took some of these minorities you're talking about out of sped and put them in classes with all the smart, self-motivated white kids, their grades would be a lot closer to yours are than what they would be in their normal situation.

Once again, I'm not trying to take away from how hard you study or anything. But you seem to believe very much in the idea that these little boxes the system you say you hate groups people into "based on their intelligence" are actually a reflection of reality. I'd say that they're likely not at all. Unfortunately, if you repeat a lie long enough it becomes true. In this case, it's the lie that some kids are just smarter or harder working than others simply because they've done better on a couple of tests.

[MasterShakezula]

I don't think a person should have to be told they're intelligent.

I'm pretty sure we all know very well just how intelligent we are.

It's mainly a matter of actually caring and being willing to put in the work to get that A.

I realize upbringing can have its effect on how much you care about education, but good lord, there's a point where this apathy expressed by those hood kids is just pathetic, and well beyond the grouping at early age explanation.  Some people are just plain useless as human beings, as a result of their poor attitudes towards the idea of merit based on effort, and it's not limited to the low incomers.  I see plenty of non-studious party animals who (at least appear to, at any rate) have their fair share of wealth, and I do not feel sympathetic towards them, either.  If a student is not going to put in the bare minimum to pass, they are clearly failing, and should be doing better than that, regardless of how they were classified in elementary school; that can only explain so much.  There's a point where that can't be used to justify a student's poor performance. 

I know I'm capable of getting good grades through putting in the time to do my work and study.  It's not that difficult for me, and much of it shouldn't be that difficult for anyone in my grade level, honors or not. 

[73109]

We need to stop focusing on test scores and start focusing on the kids. I mean, education should be individualized and focused on discussion rather than lecturing. The entire system needs a massive overhaul, but it is too difficult to do because it would cost more money and god forbid we put money into the future of America, that would just make too much sense.

[MasterShakezula]

For the focus to come off of test scores, schools need to not be funded based on them.

All (public) schools should receive the same amount of funding.

[73109]

Um...that I'm not so sure about. A public school of 500 kids should not receive the same amount of funding as a school with 4000 kids.

[MasterShakezula]

By that, I meant the same ratio of funding per student body size.

So, if school A has 1000 students and receives $X per student, and school B has 2000 students, then B should receive $2X per student. 

[73109]

Oh, in that case. I'd agree. That can lead to some sticky situations in the future though. Anyway, I've lost track of the conversation and am typing on autopilot. I gots to leave.

[antigoon]

Cup, I think you have a rather twisted perspective of how and why children perform the way they do. PC made some good posts. Why don't you start a separate thread about this, though?

[SnakeEyes]

Mitt Romney:  he should just come out and say that "Romneycare" was WRONG, not DEFEND it.  If he said it was a mistake, he'd become more credible.  At this point, his position is:  "It was okay for ME to mandate healthcare and force people to buy it in MA, but it's wrong for Obama to do it."  Sorry, wrong opinion, Mitt. 

Michelle Bachmann:  Please go away.  Does she know how to answer a frigging question?  Every time someone asks her a question, she answers a completely different question! 

Huntsman:  condescending, arrogant.  I don't like him, personally, but more importantly, he doesn't say anything, either. 

Santorum:  I do like his points and I do think he'd be OK, but..... he's not going to get anywhere.  He's too much of a goofball.  I know that sounds shallow, but it's true.

Gingrich:  I like him a lot.  Won't get anywhere, though. 

Perry:  Completely unprepared.  "I'm at the debate, but..... I'll have my economic plan ready next week."  What?  Really?  GO AWAY. 

Ron Paul:  he's just nuts.  That's really all you can say about Ron Paul.

Gary Johnson:  I LIKE HIM

[Perpetual Change]

Huntsman:  condescending, arrogant.  I don't like him, personally, but more importantly, he doesn't say anything, either.

Totally agreed here. The guy is smug as hell, and comes off as a complete snob.

Santorum:  I do like his points and I do think he'd be OK, but..... he's not going to get anywhere.  He's too much of a goofball.  I know that sounds shallow, but it's true.

Some of his points are OK. But calling allowing gays in the military "social experimentation" is just lolworthy.

Gingrich:  I like him a lot.  Won't get anywhere, though. 

Yeah, he's more than held his own in these debates. But his personal history makes him unelectable, I think.

Perry:  Completely unprepared.  "I'm at the debate, but..... I'll have my economic plan ready next week."  What?  Really?  GO AWAY.

  Weird, I think he's doing alright. I'm glad he hasn't sold out on his immigration stance yet, either.

Ron Paul:  he's just nuts.  That's really all you can say about Ron Paul.

Gary Johnson:  I LIKE HIM

Yeah. Ron Paul has been ranting for years about the same issues, but takes stances so overblown and impossible that the ranting never ends in favor of proposing solutions that are plausible, but rather extreme ones that aren't ever defended by anyone but his most ardent supporters. Then Gary Johnson comes out of nowhere with far more realistic and practical solutions to the various problems Paul points out. It's a wonder after all this time Paul has never been able to get to them himself. But I guess that's what happens when you begin to let ideology frame your thinking.

You missed out on Herman Cain though. Honestly, he seems to be doing better and better.

[Super Dude]

ITT: We learn how prejudices against race and socioeconomic statuses are formed and maintained.

[Perpetual Change]

ITT: We learn how prejudices against race and socioeconomic statuses are formed and maintained.

Well, I'm glad someone else was willing to say it.

The thing that gets me the most is how some people will rant on and on about how the education system is broken and can't get anything right: except the part where it tells them that they're having performed better than others is solely due to their own merits and effort.

Shit. I'm starting to realize something: that's how this whole things works, isn't it...

[Super Dude]

I mean I wouldn't rule out every case, but I have also seen what you're talking about in my experience with public school.

[antigoon]

ITT: We learn how prejudices against race and socioeconomic statuses are formed and maintained.

boom goes the dynamite

[SnakeEyes]

Perpetual Change: 

Oh yes, Herman Cain.  I like him, he seems genuine, BUT..... I don't know about running the country.  But, then again.... Obama.   

[Scheavo]

ITT: We learn how prejudices against race and socioeconomic statuses are formed and maintained.

Well, I'm glad someone else was willing to say it.

The thing that gets me the most is how some people will rant on and on about how the education system is broken and can't get anything right: except the part where it tells them that they're having performed better than others is solely due to their own merits and effort.

Shit. I'm starting to realize something: that's how this whole things works, isn't it...

Ever see the documentary where a women did a little experiment, and told the class that blue eyed people were better than brown eyed people (or maybe the other way around), slightly enforced the stereotype, and quickly saw horrible outcomes?

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/divided/

I think it's amazing that we think a 7 year old is going to listen to himself, and not the social message he's getting, and how he's being treated by his parents, family, teachers, etc.

[kirksnosehair]

I didn't read the entire thread, but I think of the candidates currently on the scene, Mitt Romney has the best chance against Obama, and most of the polls support that.  The problem with Mitt Romney, though, is he's fairly wishy-washy in the typical red-meat issues that conservatives embrace. 

[attempt at humor] For example, it's pretty well documented that Mr. Romney was for being against taking a position against being for agreeing with anyone who once took a position against supporting being for those who are against gun control.  [/attempt at humor] 

But seriously, even though I'm a Democrat, I actually thought Romney wasn't that bad of a governor.  I live in MA and the fabric of reality did not implode on itself when he was running things as some liberals would have you believe. 
 

[Super Dude]

Let me clarify my statement: I don't think it's this huge conspiracy to raise certain groups and keep others down. I do however believe in what Scheavo is saying, that those messages follow kids for so much longer than anyone might think, and that the consequences are so great as we now see.

[73109]

ITT: We learn how prejudices against race and socioeconomic statuses are formed and maintained.

I hope you are not refuring to me, but I need to comment on this. Anyway, I completely agree. You of all people know my stance on racisim and prejudice. The problem is, the education system in general is exactly what perpetuates the ideas that have been talked about.

Everything is about standardized test scores. Everything. That is wrong because standardized test scores don't test anything other than one's ability to spit out information. No thought process need be involved and those that can't are looked at as "stupid." What this does is ostricize those who are not the best in math or English, and it tries to make students conform toward that of the perfect student. The emphasis on arts or music or any number of things that are not science, math or English gets cut and cut and cut and cut. It truly is a horrible thing watching all these different programs get destroyed before your eyes. That is why we need to stop focusing on test scores.

What standardized testing also does is fucks with kids who don't speak English well. I go to a school that is 75% Latino. I'd be amazed if 50% of the Latinos could speak English with proficiency. What that does is brings the school's over all grade down which in turn brings the motivation of the students down. Unfortunately, poor tests scores also makes the district think it is doing some thus thereby increasing their efforts to better grades. It is a vicious circle that we can't get out of without educational reform. We can't exactly say, "Well learn to speak English" but we don't realize just how hard it is.

As for stereotyping, PC had it spot on. It's unfortunate that white people have a leg up on the competition because it causes many minorities to struggle for whatever they can have; growing up in slums and getting shitty jobs. This enviroment is not suitable for a child. In a life where you are constantly shown that you can't make anything of yourself because of your race, you won't. You are constantly exposed to sub-par performance, and why do anything about it when odds are, it won't help anyway? These are the things running through the kids' minds when they go to school and do badly on the tests. They are put down so much, they stop giving a shit. You can think it is because of whatever. Personally, I think the problems lie in the foundation of what it means to be a "good student." Education needs much more money and a complete overhaul, and it sadly won't happen.

[Super Dude]

Not you so much as Cup.

[MasterShakezula]

I can believe you guys to an extent about the psychological/socioeconomic stuff. 

I don't believe that their lack of effort should be completely excused or given a pat on the back, though; everyone going through the education system mentally capable should be held accountable for their own actions. 

[Super Dude]

I can only speak for myself, but I'm talking about the opposite of patting them on the back.  I believe those kids need to be challenged more, and with some assistance on the side they could rise to the challenge rather than being discouraged.  I won't deny there are some kids that actually prefer the sex and hard drugs, but there are some who might see it differently if given another chance.

[MasterShakezula]

I like that idea. 

I would like to know how you'd (hypothetically) go about assisting/challenging these kids to elevate themselves. 

Most of those type of kids I see don't seem to care.  At all.  I'd imagine it'd take quite the program to make them change to such a degree, but if such a program can be implemented, I'd say that's good. 

[Super Dude]

Oh I have no idea, I'm just proposing a theoretical approach.

[MasterShakezula]

Well, your basic framework seems to be in the right sort of basic direction.

I bet if someone here in the education field like James came in here, said framework could be shaped into more of a specific idea. 

[Super Dude]

Well yeah but he's a teacher, I don't know how much he knows about the administrative side of education.  Guess I could PM him.

[73109]

Um, I have some experience with sticking those types of kids into higher classes...it has not been working.

[Scheavo]

everyone going through the education system mentally capable should be held accountable for their own actions.

At what point does this happen though, and at that point is it too late? We don't think an 8 year old is accountable for their actions an anywhere else, why should we when it comes to education and long term goals? By the time someone is capable for this kind of thing, in high school, it's probably a little too late to start addressing it.

[MasterShakezula]

everyone going through the education system mentally capable should be held accountable for their own actions.

At what point does this happen though, and at that point is it too late? We don't think an 8 year old is accountable for their actions an anywhere else, why should we when it comes to education and long term goals? By the time someone is capable for this kind of thing, in high school, it's probably a little too late to start addressing it.

I'd say it's probably around the end of middle school/the beginning of high school, when students' grades really start having an effect on their ability to be accepted into a college. 

I also bet that more students would understand and embrace personal accountability had

A. their primary education before this point included more emphasis on this to sort of ease students into it,

and B. the students' parents done their jobs as parents to make known to them the importance of education, its ultimate effect upon one's path in life after high school, and the great role of personal responsibility in success in school.

[Riceball]

I've sorta been following this thread and thought I'd chime in here because I think Shakeman makes a pretty good point.

...the students' parents done their jobs as parents to make known to them the importance of education, its ultimate effect upon one's path in life after high school, and the great role of personal responsibility in success in school.

Schools, in my opinion, can't be responsible for developing a student's motivation to learn; that has to come from within. I suppose being out of high school now for five (fuck where'd that go) years and now working in a job I've strived/studied/worked-my-arse-off for, I'm a good example of what can come about from the combination of schooling and motivation. I was always told by my parents that to get a decent job with good pay and conditions and in a field that I wanted to be in, that I needed to work hard for it. It was never a case of being tied to the chair and being forced to do 4x9 until my eyes bled, it was that knowledge that I wouldn't get where I wanted to go without working for it. My parents always ensured that I knew where a good education would get me, rather than blindly saying "do your homework" and leaving the rest up to the school, which is what I think a lot of parents expect of schools these days.

Schooling should be secondary to what you learn at home and socially. I mean, have I ever needed to use any of the shit I learnt in my last two years of high school directly? Besides economics (durp I wonder why) and probably critical thinking from english classes (although I think you either have it or you don't when it comes to this), I struggle to think of anything. What has put me in good stead in the motivation and work ethic which I developed at home, applied at school (and then work, and then uni).

My two bobs on why this has occured? The focus on exams as the means of entry into higher education. From my experience, these were an excercise in memorisation - if you could regurgitate a pre-prepared essay on "what did the second world war mean for Australia", you win. Ask the same students who got really high scores (I got a high score, btw, I'm not just trying to piss on people who are megabrains lol) to stand up in front of a room and articulate and defend their position on said topic - which is what, IMO, constitutes intelligence; they'd flounder. I guarantee that.

Options for reform? Make entry into higher education more wholistic rather than a pure emphasis on your grades. I don't know what the answer is to that, though, as it would be impractical to hold interviews or something similar for every student wanting to enter higher education. But relying solely on a student's performance in a make-or-break exam is too narrow and too focussed on those who can memorise.

/rantyrantrant. Education policy sometimes really gets me fired up, not that you can tell.