The 'Music is Objective/Subjective' lol thread

[Ħ]

Cauliflower is objectively better at being worse.

[ariich]

Hayden, I am sure I listen to at least as much music as you do, and also know a lot of music theory.

If you and I disagree over whether a song or album is good or bad, which of us is right?

[Adami]

Hayden, I am sure I listen to at least as much music as you do, and also know a lot of music theory.

If you and I disagree over whether a song or album is good or bad, which of us is right?

You are boss.

[Ħ]

Hayden, I am sure I listen to at least as much music as you do, and also know a lot of music theory.

If you and I disagree over whether a song or album is good or bad, which of us is right?

It's like...a confidence interval thing, maybe.  Like you have your bounds and area of expertise and I have mind.  So there's some overlap and some disagreement.

[ariich]

Hayden, I am sure I listen to at least as much music as you do, and also know a lot of music theory.

If you and I disagree over whether a song or album is good or bad, which of us is right?

It's like...a confidence interval thing, maybe.  Like you have your bounds and area of expertise and I have mind.  So there's some overlap and some disagreement.

We could both have the same area of expertise and experience and still disagree. It happens to me all the time. If it is objective, then there must be a right and a wrong. So which would it be? And why?

[Ħ]

We'd have to pick a song to discuss as an example.  I dunno how we'd do it in just general terms.

[skydivingninja]

Let me ask if I'm getting this.  Back to the SSBM example, it would be incorrect to say "Marth is 'better' than Roy", but it would be correct to say "Marth is better at winning than Roy".  Is this along the lines of what you're saying?

Nnnnnope.  Its incorrect to say either.  Especially since, if you're a good enough player, you can beat someone using Meta Knight when you're using Peach. 

Also this analogy makes no sense.

[Sigz]

Dude, all of this is irrelevant until you can actually prove that 'true knowledge' of music actually exists. You've yet to directly answer my point, and I'm on the verge of just giving up after having repeated it four times.

Okay, I'm latching on to what you are saying.  Nothing can be "better" than anything else without a "better"-determining standard, even though X could be objectively more harmonious/melodic/whatever than Y.

Let me ask if I'm getting this.  Back to the SSBM example, it would be incorrect to say "Marth is 'better' than Roy", but it would be correct to say "Marth is better at winning than Roy".  Is this along the lines of what you're saying?

Essentially, yes. I mean, I'm not really sure how you'd be able to truly judge whether Marth is better at winning than Roy, since so much of it is player skill and style and such, but that's the idea.

[Ħ]

Dude, all of this is irrelevant until you can actually prove that 'true knowledge' of music actually exists. You've yet to directly answer my point, and I'm on the verge of just giving up after having repeated it four times.

Okay, I'm latching on to what you are saying.  Nothing can be "better" than anything else without a "better"-determining standard, even though X could be objectively more harmonious/melodic/whatever than Y.

Let me ask if I'm getting this.  Back to the SSBM example, it would be incorrect to say "Marth is 'better' than Roy", but it would be correct to say "Marth is better at winning than Roy".  Is this along the lines of what you're saying?

Essentially, yes. I mean, I'm not really sure how you'd be able to truly judge whether Marth is better at winning than Roy, since so much of it is player skill and style and such, but that's the idea.

The way tier lists are constructed is mostly just by looking at tournament results.  It is assumed that on a tournament level, the characters are being played to their fullest potential.  Since people that play as Marth place higher than people that play as Roy, this is used to support the argument that Marth should be higher on the tier list than Roy.

Of course, the assumption itself is flawed, and that's why tier lists are constantly changing.  For example, Jigglypuff used to be in the above-average tier around 11th place or something, but now she's in 3rd because pros figured out how to be better with her.

But back to the music discussion, I guess we can come to the agreement than it is silly to say one song is better than another.  In fact, I think we can even agree that it's silly to say that anything is better than anything else.  Simply because the word "better" needs to be addressing some kind of purpose. 

And if that's settled, my follow up question would be, can we make objective claims regarding the specific qualities of music?  Like, "X is more rythmic than Y"?  Or even as far as "X is better to dance to than Y"?

[Sigz]

But back to the music discussion, I guess we can come to the agreement than it is silly to say one song is better than another.  In fact, I think we can even agree that it's silly to say that anything is better than anything else.  Simply because the word "better" needs to be addressing some kind of purpose. 

And if that's settled, my follow up question would be, can we make objective claims regarding the specific qualities of music?  Like, "X is more rythmic than Y"?  Or even as far as "X is better to dance to than Y"?

If you're gonna say something like a song in 4/4 is better to dance to than one in an odd meter, than yeah why not. But beyond that I don't really see how.

[Ħ]

What about "X is better to feel depressed to than Y"?  Or other emotionally charged statements?

[73109]

No. What if I get insanely happy when listening to Agalloch?

[zxlkho]

How is emotion not subjective? Everyone feels differently about different things.

[ZBomber]

Even the 4/4 thing... someone could prefer dancing to a waltz. And there are some people out there who might prefer dancing to less common time signatures so.... I don't think that works either.

[Zantera]

How is emotion not subjective? Everyone feels differently about different things.

This, oh god this.

[Sigz]

Why are you so focused on trying to make all these objective statements about music? Just enjoy it, who cares about anything else?

Even the 4/4 thing... someone could prefer dancing to a waltz. And there are some people out there who might prefer dancing to less common time signatures so.... I don't think that works either.

Yeah that's very true.

[Ħ]

How is emotion not subjective? Everyone feels differently about different things.

Kind of.  I mean, biologically we're all 95+% the same.

[ZBomber]

Why are you so focused on trying to make all these objective statements about music? Just enjoy it, who cares about anything else?

This. The great thing about music is practically nothing about it is objective. It is a very personal thing that can mean a million things to a million different people. I honestly think it is one of the most fascinating things in life because of that depth and variety. If music was objective, places like this would be boring as fuck. 

[zxlkho]

How is emotion not subjective? Everyone feels differently about different things.

Kind of.  I mean, biologically we're all 95+% the same.

Holy shit dude.

[Ravenheart]

This thread makes me hate music.

[zxlkho]

This thread makes me hate music.

Stop saying that. It's not objective.

[Ravenheart]

This thread makes me hate music.

Stop saying that. It's not objective.

I'LL SHOW YOU OBJECTIVE.

[Tripp]

This thread makes me hate music.

Stop saying that. It's not objective.

The meaning of this post is subjective.

[zxlkho]

This thread makes me hate music.

Stop saying that. It's not objective.

The meaning of this post is subjective.

I subjectively will objective your face until is is objectively subjective.

[Tripp]

This thread makes me hate music.

Stop saying that. It's not objective.

The meaning of this post is subjective.

I subjectively will objective your face until is is objectively subjective.

I will objectively shove a can of tuna up your left nostril because pain is subjective.

[ACID_FOX]

My brain is bleeding from this topic.

[Bedwetting Cosmonaut]

this topic makes my ballsack shrink

BC

[MasterShakezula]

good

[Xanthul]

this topic makes my ballsack shrink

BC

You can use it to counter the ballsack explosion from getting Grace for Drowning.

[Zook]

There a lots of things that are objective, but there is no way that things like music, movies or food can be considered objective IMO, because it all depends on the individual's taste.

That's how I see it at least.

I disagree about foods, Lima Beans are objectively worse than things that aren't Lima beans.

[Ħ]

Black licorice, guys, black licorice.  Worst "food" in existence.

[MasterShakezula]

Nickleback is black licorice, then?

[ACID_FOX]

No, Nickelback are a band.

[lateralus88]

All opinions are wrong guys everyone shut the fuck up

[ACID_FOX]

Lulu is objectively bad, everything else is up for debate.