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Offline zxlkho

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #105 on: September 17, 2011, 04:12:07 PM »
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Quote from: Ħ on September 15, 2011, 01:19:43 AM
Orion....that's the one with a bunch of power chords and boringly harsh vocals, isn't it?

Offline Sigz

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #106 on: September 17, 2011, 04:13:54 PM »
Quote from: Ħ on September 17, 2011, 04:10:36 PM
Seeing as the laws of everything are objective

wat
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Offline MasterShakezula

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #107 on: September 17, 2011, 04:14:06 PM »
Suppose there's this girl, and she is objectively sexually attractive.  Also, her hair is red.

Next, suppose there are two dudes who see her.  Dude 1 finds her especially attractive because he likes red hair, in addition finding her generally attractive, anyways, disregarding the hair color.  Dude 2 doesn't find her interesting, despite her being objectively sexually attractive, because he doesn't like reds. 

That's my best attempt.  Very good question and interesting point you've brought up, H. 
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Offline Ħ

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #108 on: September 17, 2011, 04:15:52 PM »
Quote from: Sigz on September 17, 2011, 04:13:54 PM
Quote from: Ħ on September 17, 2011, 04:10:36 PM
Seeing as the laws of everything are objective

wat
Nature, basically.
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"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline ClairvoyantCat

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #109 on: September 17, 2011, 04:16:49 PM »
Quote from: Ħ on September 17, 2011, 04:15:52 PM
Quote from: Sigz on September 17, 2011, 04:13:54 PM
Quote from: Ħ on September 17, 2011, 04:10:36 PM
Seeing as the laws of everything are objective

wat
Nature, basically.

What do you mean by this?  I'm not trying to antagonize you here, I'm just curious.   
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Offline Sigz

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #110 on: September 17, 2011, 04:17:08 PM »
That makes no sense. Natural laws determine how something behaves. They make no claim as to whether something is 'good' or not.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #111 on: September 17, 2011, 04:20:10 PM »
Yeah but humans are a product of nature, aren't they?

It's like...a person can eat anything, really.  A person can eat dirt.  But just because they like the taste/texture/whatever of dirt doesn't make it as good as something actually edible.


In other words, a person that calls dirt "better" than apple pie is simply incorrect.
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"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Sigz

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #112 on: September 17, 2011, 04:23:01 PM »
And that relates to music how?
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Offline Ħ

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #113 on: September 17, 2011, 04:24:07 PM »
Just because a person likes "X" band over "Y" doesn't make "X" better.
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"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Sigz

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #114 on: September 17, 2011, 04:26:03 PM »
Okay, but by what metric is music good? There's a natural definition for 'good' food, but no such thing exists for music.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #115 on: September 17, 2011, 04:27:11 PM »
Quote from: Sigz on September 17, 2011, 04:26:03 PM
Okay, but by what metric is music good? There's a natural definition for 'good' food, but no such thing exists for music.
That's the thing.  I don't know what it is, but I believe it exists, simply because it exists for a number of other things in the natural world.  I don't think music is exempt from the pattern.
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"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline orcus116

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #116 on: September 17, 2011, 04:28:59 PM »
Quote from: zxlkho on September 17, 2011, 04:03:52 PM
There is 0 objectivity in music, and everyone who even remotely thinks otherwise is retarded.

I'm pretty sure technical skill is an objective measure, buddy.
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Offline Sigz

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #117 on: September 17, 2011, 04:30:15 PM »
Quote from: Ħ on September 17, 2011, 04:27:11 PM
simply because it exists for a number of other things in the natural world.

It really doesn't though. Things just are, quality is a man-made concept.


Quote from: orcus116 on September 17, 2011, 04:28:59 PM
Quote from: zxlkho on September 17, 2011, 04:03:52 PM
There is 0 objectivity in music, and everyone who even remotely thinks otherwise is retarded.

I'm pretty sure technical skill is an objective measure, buddy.

Yeah, there's objectivity in music (things are in key or not, more complex, etc), but there's no objectivity for the quality of music.
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Offline ClairvoyantCat

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #118 on: September 17, 2011, 04:30:34 PM »
Quote from: Ħ on September 17, 2011, 04:27:11 PM
Quote from: Sigz on September 17, 2011, 04:26:03 PM
Okay, but by what metric is music good? There's a natural definition for 'good' food, but no such thing exists for music.
That's the thing.  I don't know what it is, but I believe it exists, simply because it exists for a number of other things in the natural world.  I don't think music is exempt from the pattern.

Wait, so why is the "burden of proof" on us then, if you just believe it exists.
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Offline orcus116

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #119 on: September 17, 2011, 04:32:30 PM »
Quote from: Sigz on September 17, 2011, 04:30:15 PM
Quote from: orcus116 on September 17, 2011, 04:28:59 PM
Quote from: zxlkho on September 17, 2011, 04:03:52 PM
There is 0 objectivity in music, and everyone who even remotely thinks otherwise is retarded.

I'm pretty sure technical skill is an objective measure, buddy.

Yeah, there's objectivity in music (things are in key or not, more complex, etc), but there's no objectivity for the quality of music.

I dunno, there's definitely some complete crap out there that's the equivalent of a 3 year old's crayon doodle. You know, only the stuff their friends and family like just so they don't make them feel bad.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #120 on: September 17, 2011, 04:32:55 PM »
Quote from: Sigz on September 17, 2011, 04:30:15 PM
It really doesn't though. Things just are, quality is a man-made concept.
Okay, I can get on board with that.  Only problem is that now everything is subjective, and you can claim that dirt is better than apple pie and be "right" about it.  I'd prefer to err on the other end of the spectrum.
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"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline ClairvoyantCat

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #121 on: September 17, 2011, 04:34:13 PM »
Quote from: Ħ on September 17, 2011, 04:32:55 PM
Quote from: Sigz on September 17, 2011, 04:30:15 PM
It really doesn't though. Things just are, quality is a man-made concept.
Okay, I can get on board with that.  Only problem is that now everything is subjective, and you can claim that dirt is better than apple pie and be "right" about it.  I'd prefer to err on the other end of the spectrum.

Why?  Isn't it nicer to think you can have your own opinion on anything and not be considered wrong about it?

That's the main reason I'm so strong on the subjective thing.  I just think it's best to treat music-related things subjectively, even if there are maybe a few objective aspects to it.   
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Offline Sigz

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #122 on: September 17, 2011, 04:35:52 PM »
Quote from: Ħ on September 17, 2011, 04:32:55 PM
Quote from: Sigz on September 17, 2011, 04:30:15 PM
It really doesn't though. Things just are, quality is a man-made concept.
Okay, I can get on board with that.  Only problem is that now everything is subjective, and you can claim that dirt is better than apple pie and be "right" about it.  I'd prefer to err on the other end of the spectrum.

Sure, why not? One can easily claim that nature would be better off without humans, so shitty food would be 'better' by that metric.


Quote from: orcus116 on September 17, 2011, 04:32:30 PM
Quote from: Sigz on September 17, 2011, 04:30:15 PM
Quote from: orcus116 on September 17, 2011, 04:28:59 PM
Quote from: zxlkho on September 17, 2011, 04:03:52 PM
There is 0 objectivity in music, and everyone who even remotely thinks otherwise is retarded.

I'm pretty sure technical skill is an objective measure, buddy.

Yeah, there's objectivity in music (things are in key or not, more complex, etc), but there's no objectivity for the quality of music.

I dunno, there's definitely some complete crap out there that's the equivalent of a 3 year old's crayon doodle. You know, only the stuff their friends and family like just so they don't make them feel bad.

Sure, but I still don't really see any way you can logically claim it's *objectively* bad. I mean, it might be so bad that I can't see any way anyone could possibly like it, but I'm not about to attempt to prove that in any way.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #123 on: September 17, 2011, 04:36:37 PM »
But just saying "it'd be nicer that way" doesn't prove anything at all.
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Offline Sigz

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #124 on: September 17, 2011, 04:39:57 PM »
But in the end that's what you're claiming.

An apple is nutritional, dirt isn't. Since it's better for humans, apples are better.

But what makes 'good for humans' the basis for quality in this?
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Offline ClairvoyantCat

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #125 on: September 17, 2011, 04:41:08 PM »
Quote from: Ħ on September 17, 2011, 04:36:37 PM
But just saying "it'd be nicer that way" doesn't prove anything at all.

I'm just saying that it's better to treat it that way, considering that we have no real proof (which you seem determined to find) in either direction.  Also, aren't you basically saying the same thing in this post?  As in, you'd rather something be this way for personal reasons? 

Quote from: Ħ on September 17, 2011, 04:32:55 PM
Only problem is that now everything is subjective, and you can claim that dirt is better than apple pie and be "right" about it.  I'd prefer to err on the other end of the spectrum.
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Offline Sigz

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #126 on: September 17, 2011, 04:42:31 PM »
I'm sure Joe's gonna love the direction his thread's taken when he wakes up or whatever :lol
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Offline orcus116

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #127 on: September 17, 2011, 04:43:43 PM »
SO HOW BOUT THEM METUL BANDZ?
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Offline Dark Castle

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #128 on: September 17, 2011, 04:46:44 PM »
Anthrax's new album is such a glory  :metal :metal
FIGHT EM TIL YOU CAN'T NO MORE
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Offline Sigz

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #129 on: September 17, 2011, 04:47:19 PM »
Gojira is still the best them.

Objective peeeps go here: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=27939.0
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Offline The King in Crimson

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #130 on: September 17, 2011, 04:49:33 PM »
Quote from: Sigz on September 17, 2011, 04:47:19 PM
Gojira is still the best them.
For the purpose of embodying everything that is metal...

Mastodon > Gojira
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Offline Sigz

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #131 on: September 17, 2011, 04:51:31 PM »
It seems rather silly to me to say that one band 'embodies' a genre more than another.
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Offline Dark Castle

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #132 on: September 17, 2011, 04:52:20 PM »
Quote from: The King in Crimson on September 17, 2011, 04:49:33 PM
Quote from: Sigz on September 17, 2011, 04:47:19 PM
Gojira is still the best them.
For the purpose of embodying everything that is metal...

Mastodon > Gojira
:tup
Still love Gojira though.
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Offline The King in Crimson

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #133 on: September 17, 2011, 04:56:43 PM »
Quote from: Sigz on September 17, 2011, 04:51:31 PM
It seems rather silly to me to say that one band 'embodies' a genre more than another.
Your face seems rather silly to me.

I mean, well, we are talking about the best metal band, which is a pretty silly discussion to begin with. 

Besides, if I were to fight, say, a kraken (which is objectively the most metal thing ever) I'd want Mastodon playing when I skewer its inky-heart with a harpoon. Listening to Gojira would just make me want to hug the damn thing.
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Offline Sigz

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #134 on: September 17, 2011, 04:57:59 PM »
Quote from: The King in Crimson on September 17, 2011, 04:56:43 PM
Quote from: Sigz on September 17, 2011, 04:51:31 PM
It seems rather silly to me to say that one band 'embodies' a genre more than another.
Your face seems rather silly to me.

I mean, well, we are talking about the best metal band, which is a pretty silly discussion to begin with. 

Besides, if I were to fight, say, a kraken (which is objectively the most metal thing ever) I'd want Mastodon playing when I skewer its inky-heart with a harpoon. Listening to Gojira would just make me want to hug the damn thing.

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Offline Ravenheart

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #135 on: September 17, 2011, 05:20:48 PM »
After carefully reading this thread, pondering the argument, and considering the points, there is only one conclusion I can objectively draw:




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Offline Dark Castle

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #136 on: September 17, 2011, 05:21:37 PM »
Quote from: Ravenheart on September 17, 2011, 05:20:48 PM
After carefully reading this thread, pondering the argument, and considering the points, there is only one conclusion I can objectively draw:





:rollin
beautiful
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Kosmo

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #137 on: September 17, 2011, 05:29:20 PM »
Agalloch
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Offline zxlkho

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #138 on: September 17, 2011, 05:32:31 PM »
Quote from: Kosmo on September 17, 2011, 05:29:20 PM
Agalloch

You and I... we can be friends.
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Quote from: Ħ on September 15, 2011, 01:19:43 AM
Orion....that's the one with a bunch of power chords and boringly harsh vocals, isn't it?

Offline LieLowTheWantedMan

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Re: The best metal band?
« Reply #139 on: September 17, 2011, 05:54:34 PM »
I was thinking of saying Agalloch. There's really no other band like them IMO.
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