Dream Theater: In Need of a New Producer?

[The Dark Master]

They are most certainly not in need of a producer, but depending on who it is, an outside objective opinion on their music making process could be rather beneficial.

[Ħ]

Maybe a secondary producer.  I generally think JP's done a good job, but if a guy was there just to double-check JP's work, I think it'd be  nice.

[Metabog]

The mix and master are good for a modern album. FII-style production would sound a little weird today. It's just really hard to maintain that dynamic range and still compete with modern radio mastering, it would be a bit of a gimmick to mix/master it that way. Can you imagine the new DT album mixed like a Led Zeppelin album? No, that time has gone by. You probably couldn't imagine it sounding like a Nirvana album either.

I love the mixing on the 90's albums to death, but the war for loudness is a slippery slope that you can't climb back on very easily, and even if you do, it ends up being a sort of highly central decision, like Opeth deciding to make their latest album sound like 70's prog. A lot of people can't stand to listen to the new guitar tone, a few people do. If it was mixed AND mastered like a King Crimson album I will bet anything it would not sell half the expected copies.

Face the facts, our future is black, arise we're on the wrong track! 

[?]

No, I don't think they need an outside producer. JP did great job on ADTOE. However, maybe I would've answered differently if I was asked when MP was still in the band.

[Sketchy]

No, but if someone like Adrian Belew or Steven Wilson did do it, the result would be amazing and mildly hillarious.

I love SW's production, but yes, to see if it would fit with DT's sound would be a very interesting experiment.

[Evo]

With the word "needs" there, no. ADTOE showed me they can do fine with a LACK of MP as producer.

Still, as great as ADTOE is IMO, a new producer in the mix would be welcome to see how it would work out.

This.

[hefdaddy42]

No, they don't NEED a producer.

[Perpetual Change]

It seems to me like DT basically go through phases. Like any band, they need to be refreshed from time to time.

For example: when DT started with a producer, they rocked, but eventually conflicts with the producer stopped leading to creativity and the band gave in circa FII, an album many of you like but I think it's quite sterile to be honest.

Then, JP and MP self-producing breathed a lot of creativity into the band for awhile, but that got stale after awhile as the relationship sort of broke down into Mike admittedly winning every battle and his decisions becoming more and more off-the-cuff-yet-final.

Now Mike's gone, and JP doing it himself has brought new energy to the band. I suspect it'll stay that way for another album or two, and then the band will need to mix things up again. Not sure how they'll do it, but they'll need to.

[Juular]

For years I was thinking they desperately need an outside producer but as I am completely satisfied with this new album I say no.

[senecadawg2]

No, I don't think they need a new producer.

It might be a good idea, and really take them to the next level, but ADTOE sounds incredible as is.

[JasonScandopolous]

You should alter (re-do) your poll to reflect the opinions people have expressed here.

"Should DT get a new producer for DT12?

-Yes, JP did a bad job // Yes, someone else could do better
-JP did fine, but I wouldnt mind one
-No, JP was excellent, I dont want anybody else
-No, I dont trust an outside producer"

[ZirconBlue]

"Need"?  No.  "Could benefit from"?  Yes.

[ronrule]

Sounds like the phrasing of your question ("need") maybe be skewing your results towards No.

Maybe try "Dream Theater should bring in an outside producer for DT12" -- Agree or Disagree?

That said, I doubt they will. Their albums have been successful. The band seems happy with this arrangement. I'm betting to do so would essentially be a pay cut for Petrucci, and perhaps a pay cut for all of them, depending on how the pie is sliced.

[Hal Incandenza]

the war for loudness is a slippery slope that you can't climb back on very easily, and even if you do, it ends up being a sort of highly central decision, like Opeth deciding to make their latest album sound like 70's prog.

Yep.  I'm looking forward to this style's time being passed.

[Zydar]

No I think JP did a great job on this.

[johncal]

What they need to do is bring in an EXECUTIVE PRODUCER. The executive producer's roll is more as an overseer. JP can continue to do all of the intricate production, but it put an extra set of ears on the music and the overall flow of the album.

[KevShmev]

I've been saying yes for years, and while I love the new album, I am gonna stick with yes.  I am not saying they need a producer to come in and take over and mess with their whole sound and whatnot, but someone who is familiar with their sound and style and could make certain things even better could make the next album even better (so long as it isn't one who insists on making it sound too modern..see: compression).  But it is not likely to happen.

[bosk1]

With the word "needs" there, no. ADTOE showed me they can do fine with a LACK of MP as producer.

Still, as great as ADTOE is IMO, a new producer in the mix would be welcome to see how it would work out.

James is 100% correct.  If the band is open to it, there is no reason not to bring out outside producer in to approach the music from out outside perspective.  But you never know how that is going to work out.  Even with a very seasoned, experienced band, a new producer can come in and create an end result that isn't true to the band's vision and ultimately ends up being disappointing. 

And, again, as James pointed out, using the word "need" is incredibly presumptuous, arrogant, and rude.  Objectively speaking, the growing fan base and album sales show that what DT has been doing has been working.  Could it be improved with things like an outside producer?  That is open to debate, and I'm sure the answers will range across the board.  But the minute you start throwing words like "need" in the mix, you are assuming that you know better than an already-successful band.

[Infinite Cactus]

Two years ago I said yes. I'm going to go with no now. But a co-producer, if they were open to it, maybe.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

And, again, as James pointed out, using the word "need" is incredibly presumptuous, arrogant, and rude.  Objectively speaking, the growing fan base and album sales show that what DT has been doing has been working.  Could it be improved with things like an outside producer?  That is open to debate, and I'm sure the answers will range across the board.  But the minute you start throwing words like "need" in the mix, you are assuming that you know better than an already-successful band.

I think it depends what they would need the producer for. Do they need a producer to make music that will please their fans? Absolutely not. Do they need a producer to make music that will grow their fanbase? Absolutely not. Do they need a producer to make music that will please me - TOX? Nope.*

The only reason they would need a producer, I think, is if they wanted to transition into making more accessible, radio-friendly music. And even then, maybe they wouldn't. But they would never do that, so...

* But having a producer wouldn't hurt!

[cosmotobe]

Hi folks, I'm new here (but I'm a DT fan since 1998 and I was on MP's forum long ago...). ADTOE is perfectly produced by JP. I can't see any reason for an outside producer. And I don't want DT to become more "radio friendly". They should have all the control over what they are doing.

[InertSolo]

Hi folks, I'm new here (but I'm a DT fan since 1998 and I was on MP's forum long ago...). ADTOE is perfectly produced by JP. I can't see any reason for an ouside producer. And I don't want DT to become more "radio friendly". They should have all the control over what they are doing.

First, welcome to the site! 

But I don't think anyone is insinuating they want anyone besides the band to choose what direction the music goes in, all they want is just someone to go through after John is almost done with the production on the album and giving it a quick a run-through to make sure sonically it isn't too lopsided. This I can definitely get behind.

[yorost]

As has been pointed out, need makes it no.  A new producer might be a good idea, but they'll be fine without.

[cosmotobe]

Thanks for the welcome, InertSolo

After John is almost done with the production on the album they can give it a quick run-through while JLB, JR, JM and MM listen to it!

[Lowdz]

Voted no. I think JP and JR know how DT should sound. An outside ear is going to tighten the songs up and remove the uneccesary instrumental bits, but to me they are essential to the DT sound.

[hacko]

I wouldn't call myself "sonically educated", but I'll say this: imagine you are in a room with 5 people who are all talking very loudly and, despite each person having a distinct-sounding voice, you sometimes can't follow what everyone is saying because they are all talking so loud, almost to the point of cacophony.  Now imagine you are in a room with those same 5 people, and they are all speaking in lively yet conversational tones.  Not only can you better distinguish the tonality of the voices, there is also enough "space" around each voice that they all stand out from one another without actually being loud, except when appropriate, like a burst of laughter.

Am I the only one that can't do this no matter what volume the 5 people are talking in?

[reneranucci]

Hm. I want to say "yes," but the only thing I'd actually want a producer to do with regards to ADTOE would be to 1. listen to the master of Lost Not Forgotten, 2. fast forward to 2:00-2:30, 3. be all "yeah, that's cool," and then 4. "accidentally" trip and set the sound equipment on fire.

I think it'd be cool for them to work with an outside producer again for the 12th album, but I don't think that it's truly necessary, at this point in time.

 

[ariich]

Absolutely not.

This.

Emindead, I swear you just hate everything.

[Samsara]

I think the band needs an outside ear. I have said that ever since Scenes. I don't agree with every move they made on FII (outside writers, for me, are a no-no), but some of the decisions (such as lifting out Hell's Kitchen and making it its own song) were great ones.

To me, FII was the most successful DT album where their core sound and progressive nature were captured, but at the same time, crossed over more to the general metal and hard rock fan. Sure, with I&W and Awake, DT was arguably more popular, but FII was more (IMO) accessible than either of those albums and was a great balance.

But once MP threw his hissy fit and got his way, while many fans loved what came next, I felt the opposite.

It is true, that at least from a wide perspective, it was the right choice for the band. They got Jordan, focused on their virtuoso-type playing, etc., etc. They got mountains of new fans while many other bands crashed and burned (case in point, my favorite, the ORIGINAL lineup of Queensryche, who experimented TOO far in 1997 and obviously, after Degarmo split, haven't really been the same since -- but that's a different story).

But to me, DT lost the plot in that their songs were getting long for the sake of being long. A GOOD PRODUCER recognizes a band's talent, it's expectations, but also focuses on the core elements of "what makes up a good song." They are able to look at something objectively and make suggestions to refine things.

JP, as much as I love the guy, is not the right producer for Dream Theater. He's the primary songwriter. I know there is a history of great songwriters that self-produce their bands' releases. Steven Wilson comes to mind immediately.

But to me, decisions need to be made to make changes to songs to make the song BETTER. Much of that could start by taking out elements that while cool, don't enhance the overall vibe or mood of the song. Not stripping it away, not talking about eliminating solos. But looking at song, cutting a bit there, suggesting a different approach to a solo here, etc., etc.

Dream Theater is missing that. ADToE is missing that.

And I know that opinion is not popular. And that's ok, because opinions are like assholes. Mine stinks after a shit as does yours. 

But yeah, I think DT is in bad need of allowing someone they trust, but perhaps don't always agree with, come in, and really PRODUCE an album with them, and let it roll and see what happens. I don't want DT to be a mainstream hard rock band. But I also think their songs need to be refined...which is something a good producer does.

[livehard]

I don't think at all they need another producer? What is lacking from this production? I think they did a great job and on a side note I think this album was almost perfectly mixed.

[Samsara]

LOL. Re-read, please. A mix is different than production. That's why a lot of bands have an engineer, a producer, and a mixer.

[7StringedBeast]

You know who has outside producers?  Nickleback.

[Samsara]

You know who has outside producers?  Nickleback.

You know who also has outside producers? Megadeth. Soundgarden. Testament, Alter Bridge.

Just because Nickelback cheesed up mainstream rock, doesn't mean having a producer is a bad thing. It's usually a very good thing, because most musicians are too close to their own songs to be objective.

I write for a living. Most of my writing doesn't need a LOT of editing. But when I do a 3,000 cover story, I'm thankful for an editor that steps in, and points out areas that could need some refinement and why. It's a perspective that makes me become a better writer.

The same applies to music and songwriting.

A lot of musicians think they get to a certain level and they don't need a producer. I've heard DT say that. I've heard a lot of bands say that. Sometimes, they are right. Most of the time, their dead wrong.

[emindead]

emindead is quite possibly the worst poster here. not including me.

sig'd.

[ReaPsTA]

But to me, decisions need to be made to make changes to songs to make the song BETTER. Much of that could start by taking out elements that while cool, don't enhance the overall vibe or mood of the song. Not stripping it away, not talking about eliminating solos. But looking at song, cutting a bit there, suggesting a different approach to a solo here, etc., etc.

Dream Theater is missing that. ADToE is missing that.

And I know that opinion is not popular. And that's ok, because opinions are like assholes. Mine stinks after a shit as does yours. 

But yeah, I think DT is in bad need of allowing someone they trust, but perhaps don't always agree with, come in, and really PRODUCE an album with them, and let it roll and see what happens. I don't want DT to be a mainstream hard rock band. But I also think their songs need to be refined...which is something a good producer does.

I dunno man.  I'm not freaking out over ADTOE like a lot of people are.  I think it has its flaws, but truly deficient songwriting isn't one of them.  Like, seriously, what are the problems?  BITS is like the fastest ten minutes of music ever.  My only issue is the repeat of the "and at last the time has come" part, which is more lyrical than musical.  And even then, it doesn't crush me with boredom.  I wish the final chorus of BTS had been bigger, but this isn't a fundamental issue with the songwriting either.  Even Outcry, which I find strange and confusing, at least has a certain feel the whole way through.  It all feels like one song, rather than a song with an instrumental diversion in the middle.

The band's songwriting on certain parts of every album from Scenes to BCSL felt fundamentally deficient to me.  I don't feel the need to hear something like the instrumental section of ANTR again.  But it seems like the person who primarily liked these kinds of things is no longer in the band.  Considering the massive leap upward in quality, why is it reasonable to assume that they can't keep improving?