Dream Theater: In Need of a New Producer?

[Tumdace]

For now, no. If the next album is like this new one, then definately no.

[emindead]

Honestly, I think had you used language like "could have benefitted from" instead of "need," I think you would be seeing very different poll results.

All right. In 90 days I will word it in that tone.

[dongringo]

Hi folks, I'm new here (but I'm a DT fan since 1998 and I was on MP's forum long ago...). ADTOE is perfectly produced by JP. I can't see any reason for an outside producer. And I don't want DT to become more "radio friendly". They should have all the control over what they are doing.

Thank you! And welcome! 

[ariich]

You know which bunch of people will stop the quote pyramid and cease to hijack my thread?

Wait, you just said they're successful.  Why do they need a producer?

Because (arguably) their songs are good but they could be much better. I feel people here are praising too much a B+ album. How many here would they place this new album above I&W, Awake, SFAM or 6DOIT? (Jamesman doesn't count, in the first week he ranked BC&SL as #1 LOL!)

Definitely above Awake.  Quite possibly above I&W, but too early to tell.

For me it's definitely above Awake and way way way above SFAM. I don't think it's going to top SDOIT but it's battling I&W for my second favourite.

[ariich]

Honestly, I think had you used language like "could have benefitted from" instead of "need," I think you would be seeing very different poll results.

All right. In 90 days I will word it in that tone.

That will skew the results and give you the result you want to get. That's cheating, and meaningless.

[emindead]

Honestly, I think had you used language like "could have benefited from" instead of "need," I think you would be seeing very different poll results.

All right. In 90 days I will word it in that tone.

That will skew the results and give you the result you want to get. That's cheating, and meaningless.

First of all... oxford comma.
Second, fine! Next time there won't be a change in the TOOOOOONE. 

[Bandit Manatee]

Yeah!  They should hire me. I could make their Jams sound very fresh. 

[Jaq]

Do they NEED a new producer? No.

Could the right producer make them even better? Yes, of course. Let's look at one band in particular: Iron Maiden. I honestly think that Maiden wouldn't be the band that they were in the 1980s if they hadn't developed such a good relationship with Martin Birch. A band can be good without an outside producer, but find the right one and omg, the sky can be the limit. The thing is, at this stage in their careers, can DT find that guy and make it work in one album? Maiden grew across the course of several Birch produced albums, after all; I don't know if they're going to be hoping they click with a producer in a few years when Jordan is in his 60s, after all.

[Jamesman42]

emindead is such a different poster these days, it's weird

[emindead]

emindead is such a different poster these days, it's weird

I wouldn't say different... maybe disappointed with this new album, and this frustration maybe channeled into the posts you read. But maybe I'm in a phase where there's no single band that fulfills my desires. I feel (musically) in an empty room (in general, with all music).

[Jarzombek]

Absolutely not.

[kirksnosehair]

With the word "needs" there, no. ADTOE showed me they can do fine with a LACK of MP as producer.

Still, as great as ADTOE is IMO, a new producer in the mix would be welcome to see how it would work out.

James is 100% correct.  If the band is open to it, there is no reason not to bring out outside producer in to approach the music from out outside perspective.  But you never know how that is going to work out.  Even with a very seasoned, experienced band, a new producer can come in and create an end result that isn't true to the band's vision and ultimately ends up being disappointing. 

And, again, as James pointed out, using the word "need" is incredibly presumptuous, arrogant, and rude.  Objectively speaking, the growing fan base and album sales show that what DT has been doing has been working.  Could it be improved with things like an outside producer?  That is open to debate, and I'm sure the answers will range across the board.  But the minute you start throwing words like "need" in the mix, you are assuming that you know better than an already-successful band.

That's a very good point, and it's something that I have been guilty of myself at times.  Objectively speaking, you are right, asserting that Dream Theater "NEED" an outside producer is arrogant, and from now on I am going to try to refrain from expressing it in those terms.

With that said, I think Dream Theater would benefit from having some objective ears in the area of production.  I have not always agreed with the mixing choices they have made and their latest album is no exception to this.  I LOVE the new songs and the album sounds decent from a sonic standpoint, but the production could have sharper, imho. 

There was a post on here about how "Images & Words" was used for inspiration for "A Dramatic Turn of Events" a while back.  That post motivated me to put the tracks on my iPod in a playlist arranged in such a way that it played songs from each album band and forth, first a song from I&W, then a song from ADTOE, through both albums.  Triggered snare sound aside, it's pretty amazing how incredible "Images and Words" sounds even now.  If I'm being honest, I can't say that ADTOE has the same sonic quality.  Although I would not say it sounds "bad" at all.  I just think it could sound better.

I'm not an expert at this, which is why I hired an expert to produce and mix my album.  I think there is a myth out there that one has to relinquish some level of creative control in order to have an "outside producer" work on your album.  I can only speak my personal experience, but when I hired an expert to produce and mix my band's album, I didn't give any any creative control at all, and in fact, I got some really, really good quality feedback from him that, I think, ultimately resulted in a better sounding album.   

[Mr. Beale]

As others have stated, need? No. Could benefit from? Perhaps.

[commanderbob]

Yesyesyesyesyesyesyes,yes,yes,yes,yes.  Yes.  Yes.

YES.

After listening to nothing but ADTOE on headphones for 2 weeks, I finally subsumed it into my normal work rotation of "all studio recordings - WDADU + Ytse Jam" on random shuffle; and the difference was stunning.  I don't know the correct words to say, not being an audiophile, but it just sounded..........lifeless compared to some of the others, like Awake and FII.  The music itself is awesome, but audio-wise, just a dead fish. No character.

[PixelDream]

I think ADTOE sounds quite 'boxy' compared to their other albums. SFAM has it a bit too.. but there it isn't as dramatic. And the vocals sound a bit too pumped up for me. Cymbals don't really sound real enough I guess.

[Groundhog]

With the word "needs" there, no. ADTOE showed me they can do fine with a LACK of MP as producer.

Still, as great as ADTOE is IMO, a new producer in the mix would be welcome to see how it would work out.

James is 100% correct.  If the band is open to it, there is no reason not to bring out outside producer in to approach the music from out outside perspective.  But you never know how that is going to work out.  Even with a very seasoned, experienced band, a new producer can come in and create an end result that isn't true to the band's vision and ultimately ends up being disappointing. 

And, again, as James pointed out, using the word "need" is incredibly presumptuous, arrogant, and rude.  Objectively speaking, the growing fan base and album sales show that what DT has been doing has been working.  Could it be improved with things like an outside producer?  That is open to debate, and I'm sure the answers will range across the board.  But the minute you start throwing words like "need" in the mix, you are assuming that you know better than an already-successful band.

That's a very good point, and it's something that I have been guilty of myself at times.  Objectively speaking, you are right, asserting that Dream Theater "NEED" an outside producer is arrogant, and from now on I am going to try to refrain from expressing it in those terms.

With that said, I think Dream Theater would benefit from having some objective ears in the area of production.  I have not always agreed with the mixing choices they have made and their latest album is no exception to this.  I LOVE the new songs and the album sounds decent from a sonic standpoint, but the production could have sharper, imho. 

There was a post on here about how "Images & Words" was used for inspiration for "A Dramatic Turn of Events" a while back.  That post motivated me to put the tracks on my iPod in a playlist arranged in such a way that it played songs from each album band and forth, first a song from I&W, then a song from ADTOE, through both albums.  Triggered snare sound aside, it's pretty amazing how incredible "Images and Words" sounds even now.  If I'm being honest, I can't say that ADTOE has the same sonic quality.  Although I would not say it sounds "bad" at all.  I just think it could sound better.

I'm not an expert at this, which is why I hired an expert to produce and mix my album.  I think there is a myth out there that one has to relinquish some level of creative control in order to have an "outside producer" work on your album.  I can only speak my personal experience, but when I hired an expert to produce and mix my band's album, I didn't give any any creative control at all, and in fact, I got some really, really good quality feedback from him that, I think, ultimately resulted in a better sounding album.

I agree that they don't need a producer. The music on ADTOE is a testament to that, but I do agree with Kirk that they would benefit from having a one with objective ears in the sound production. Ever since 6DOIT I find their sound to be lacking and ADTOE is no exception. My main gripe with the sound is the bad mastering/lack of dynamics. Having heard one fan OTBOA mix from the stems with twice the dynamic range confirms that. Still the mix/production could have been better. I&W still to this day sounds great and has better sonic quality than ADTOE or any of their recent albums for that matter.

[Perpetual Change]

Honestly, I think had you used language like "could have benefited from" instead of "need," I think you would be seeing very different poll results.

All right. In 90 days I will word it in that tone.

That will skew the results and give you the result you want to get. That's cheating, and meaningless.

First of all... oxford comma.
Second, fine! Next time there won't be a change in the TOOOOOONE. 

I'm not sure you know what the oxford comma is.

[Bertielee]

Honestly, I think had you used language like "could have benefited from" instead of "need," I think you would be seeing very different poll results.

All right. In 90 days I will word it in that tone.

That will skew the results and give you the result you want to get. That's cheating, and meaningless.

First of all... oxford comma.
Second, fine! Next time there won't be a change in the TOOOOOONE. 

I'm not sure you know what the oxford comma is.

I'm sure Emindead alluded to Ariich's post, where he used a comma just after the word "cheating" or more precisely before the "and", which is an Oxford comma I guess. May be wrong though...

B.Lee

[coffees for closers]

No, but I think Paul Northfield has done nothing to improve their sound and even lean the other way, I had the same response when he joined the Rush camp. I feel Terry Brown was a much better choice and got better sound out of the mix.

[Perpetual Change]

I'm sure Emindead alluded to Ariich's post, where he used a comma just after the word "cheating" or more precisely before the "and", which is an Oxford comma I guess. May be wrong though...

B.Lee

It's not. An "Oxford comma" is when you put a comma before a conjunction that's part of a series of three words or more, i.e., "Dream Theater is a band founded by John Petrucci, John Myung, and Mike Portnoy" as opposed to "Dream Theater is a band founded by John Petrucci, John Myung and Mike Portnoy." Neither is correct. Depending on what you're writing for, you might be required to omit it (like, if you're writing for a newspaper and space is an issue).

Perhaps if emindead would start focusing on his own English instead of trying to pick apart the English of native speakers all the time (and trying to redefine what "hero" means) he'd finally start showing some progress after all these years   

[Orion1967]

Honestly, I think had you used language like "could have benefitted from" instead of "need," I think you would be seeing very different poll results.

All right. In 90 days I will word it in that tone.

That will skew the results and give you the result you want to get. That's cheating, and meaningless.

This

[Bertielee]

I'm sure Emindead alluded to Ariich's post, where he used a comma just after the word "cheating" or more precisely before the "and", which is an Oxford comma I guess. May be wrong though...

B.Lee

It's not. An "Oxford comma" is when you put a comma before a conjunction that's part of a series of three words or more, i.e., "Dream Theater is a band founded by John Petrucci, John Myung, and Mike Portnoy" as opposed to "Dream Theater is a band founded by John Petrucci, John Myung and Mike Portnoy." Neither is correct. Depending on what you're writing for, you might be required to omit it (like, if you're writing for a newspaper and space is an issue).

Perhaps if emindead would start focusing on his own English instead of trying to pick apart the English of native speakers all the time (and trying to redefine what "hero" means) he'd finally start showing some progress after all these years   

OK, I thought it worked with only 2 words also. So, how do you call that sort of comma : it's not really typical or is it? (I'm not a native English speaker).

B.Lee

[Perpetual Change]

OK, I thought it worked with only 2 words also. So, how do you call that sort of comma : it's not really typical or is it? (I'm not a native English speaker).

B.Lee

Nope, it's gotta be three or more. That's just a normal comma. There might be a special name for it. I dunno. if there is, it's probably not really worth knowing anyway.

[Bertielee]

OK, I thought it worked with only 2 words also. So, how do you call that sort of comma : it's not really typical or is it? (I'm not a native English speaker).

B.Lee

Nope, it's gotta be three or more. That's just a normal comma. There might be a special name for it. I dunno. if there is, it's probably not really worth knowing anyway.

OK, thanks for the heads up; Will say it's not typical for a series of only two words then.

B.Lee

PS : 1/11th of your posts, and I thought 700 was rather high. Pffff....

[ZirconBlue]

OK, I thought it worked with only 2 words also. So, how do you call that sort of comma : it's not really typical or is it? (I'm not a native English speaker).

If you've only got 2 items in your list, a comma is unnecessary and. technically, improper usage.  I think ariich was using it deliberately for effect, though, to add a pause. 

[WildeSilas]

I'm not sure why Northfield is so highly rated to begin with. I wasn't thrilled with most of his Rish mixes either...

[jonny108]

I'm not sure why Northfield is so highly rated to begin with. I wasn't thrilled with most of his Rish mixes either...

 

[ZirconBlue]

I'm not sure why Northfield is so highly rated to begin with. I wasn't thrilled with most of his Rish mixes either...

But his use of commas is impeccable.

[kirksnosehair]

 

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

emindead is such a different poster these days, it's weird

I wouldn't say different... maybe disappointed with this new album, and this frustration maybe channeled into the posts you read. But maybe I'm in a phase where there's no single band that fulfills my desires. I feel (musically) in an empty room (in general, with all music).

I pity you. Really.

[skydivingninja]

With the word "needs" there, no. ADTOE showed me they can do fine with a LACK of MP as producer.

Still, as great as ADTOE is IMO, a new producer in the mix would be welcome to see how it would work out.

This.