Dream Theater: In Need of a New Producer?

[emindead]

Respond the answer, that's it. This poll will be open for 90 days.

I'll do another poll next year when the "new" factor has worn off. We'll then compare.

I say that Dream Theater does need a new producer. JP recovered the essential DT sound with this record but they need someone that can guide them and help them develop/mature their ideas better.

Emindead has done his "needs".

[Perpetual Change]

Absolutely not.

[Jamesman42]

With the word "needs" there, no. ADTOE showed me they can do fine with a LACK of MP as producer.

Still, as great as ADTOE is IMO, a new producer in the mix would be welcome to see how it would work out.

[MetropolisxPt1]

It would be cool to try something different but i dont think its a need.

[gm5k]

Not against the idea at all, but they definitely don't need it.

[cramx3]

No, I like the new album very much and would rather not risk a new producer getting in the way of what the band's vision will be for the next album.

[FlyingBIZKIT]

No, I like the new album very much and would rather not risk a new producer getting in the way of what the band's vision will be for the next album.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Yeah, I think the songs reached most of their potential. I wouldn't change that.

[energythief]

Hard to improve on perfect. I vote no.


(If you had asked this one album ago I'd have said absolutely 100% yes.)

[j]

I think if they worked with the right guy, it could be a huge plus.  But I don't think they "need" a producer, particularly now that Portnoy's gone.

-J

[chrisbDTM]

petrucci did the job. if it aint broke dont fix it

[WildeSilas]

I don't see how anyone can listen to FII or Awake from purely a sonic standpoint and argue otherwise. FII is not only the best sounding DT album, I count it among one of the top 5 albums in my entire collection in terms of production quality, mix, and recording technique. It's like a Beatles record for modern times. Nothing against JP but having an outside objective ear who is also familiar with the band's sound can make a world of difference. While ADTOE sounds great, it can be argued that a wider perspective on the drum sound is in order, and although we can suddenly hear JMX, he's still not sitting as comfortably in the mix as he did on any given track from Awake or FII.

[energythief]

I don't see how anyone can listen to FII or Awake from purely a sonic standpoint and argue otherwise. FII is not only the best sounding DT album, I count it among one of the top 5 albums in my entire collection in terms of production quality, mix, and recording technique. It's like a Beatles record for modern times. Nothing against JP but having an outside objective ear who is also familiar with the band's sound can make a world of difference. While ADTOE sounds great, it can be argued that a wider perspective on the drum sound is in order, and although we can suddenly hear JMX, he's still not sitting as comfortably in the mix as he did on any given track from Awake or FII.

I sometimes wish I knew as much as some of the more "sonically" educated posters on the board, but then again, I feel like it might hurt my enjoyment. Does the song really sounds so much different based on the mix?

[Priest of Syrinx]

I'm in a fair amount of agreement with WildeSilas.

In some respects the current production values are pretty fvcked up.  Everything is way too loud, the various instruments compete against each other up to the sonic ceiling.  You could bring everyone down in the mix and allow the music to breathe a bit more.

I think overall JP did a fine job, my gripe aside, so I don't think DT needs a new producer.  But if someone would come in and create better balance for the music, I'd be all for it.

[Jamariquay]

Hm. I want to say "yes," but the only thing I'd actually want a producer to do with regards to ADTOE would be to 1. listen to the master of Lost Not Forgotten, 2. fast forward to 2:00-2:30, 3. be all "yeah, that's cool," and then 4. "accidentally" trip and set the sound equipment on fire.

I think it'd be cool for them to work with an outside producer again for the 12th album, but I don't think that it's truly necessary, at this point in time.

[Priest of Syrinx]

I sometimes wish I knew as much as some of the more "sonically" educated posters on the board, but then again, I feel like it might hurt my enjoyment. Does the song really sounds so much different based on the mix?

I wouldn't call myself "sonically educated", but I'll say this: imagine you are in a room with 5 people who are all talking very loudly and, despite each person having a distinct-sounding voice, you sometimes can't follow what everyone is saying because they are all talking so loud, almost to the point of cacophony.  Now imagine you are in a room with those same 5 people, and they are all speaking in lively yet conversational tones.  Not only can you better distinguish the tonality of the voices, there is also enough "space" around each voice that they all stand out from one another without actually being loud, except when appropriate, like a burst of laughter.

[dongringo]

Absolutely not.

[Fuzzboy]

Yeah, it would help. The ADTOE was fine, but another one that sounds like FII would be dope

[energythief]

I sometimes wish I knew as much as some of the more "sonically" educated posters on the board, but then again, I feel like it might hurt my enjoyment. Does the song really sounds so much different based on the mix?

I wouldn't call myself "sonically educated", but I'll say this: imagine you are in a room with 5 people who are all talking very loudly and, despite each person having a distinct-sounding voice, you sometimes can't follow what everyone is saying because they are all talking so loud, almost to the point of cacophony.  Now imagine you are in a room with those same 5 people, and they are all speaking in lively yet conversational tones.  Not only can you better distinguish the tonality of the voices, there is also enough "space" around each voice that they all stand out from one another without actually being loud, except when appropriate, like a burst of laughter.

This is an interesting way to look at it... I tend to equate what you're describing as just "quieter", but I like to have my music at a certain volume, so I'd typically be turning up the volume until it was as loud as the previous scenario, I think. Is there a difference then?


Do you know of any samples of one style vs. another online anywhere? I know this is off topic, and feel free to PM if you'd like, but I really have a bind spot (deaf spot?) when it comes to this whole concept.

[Jaffa]

Not against the idea at all, but they definitely don't need it.

Pretty much this.

[dongringo]

Yeah, it would help. The ADTOE was fine, but another one that sounds like FII would be dope

Are we talking about producing or mixing?

[WildeSilas]

What Syrinx said. The best way to note the difference is to listen to songs from different albums back to back. In this case I'd recommend setting up a playlist that runs like this:

1. Breaking All Illusions
2. New Millenium (one of the best mixed songs on the planet, IMO)
3. Far From Heaven
4. Anna Lee
5. Lost Not Forgotten
6. 6:00

Pay particular attention to where it sounds like the keyboards and bass are coming from, as well as the background vocals. It's a pretty huge difference. Turning the volume up or down won't matter - it's the distinction of instruments that does.

[Fuzzboy]

I sometimes wish I knew as much as some of the more "sonically" educated posters on the board, but then again, I feel like it might hurt my enjoyment. Does the song really sounds so much different based on the mix?

I wouldn't call myself "sonically educated", but I'll say this: imagine you are in a room with 5 people who are all talking very loudly and, despite each person having a distinct-sounding voice, you sometimes can't follow what everyone is saying because they are all talking so loud, almost to the point of cacophony.  Now imagine you are in a room with those same 5 people, and they are all speaking in lively yet conversational tones.  Not only can you better distinguish the tonality of the voices, there is also enough "space" around each voice that they all stand out from one another without actually being loud, except when appropriate, like a burst of laughter.

This is an interesting way to look at it... I tend to equate what you're describing as just "quieter", but I like to have my music at a certain volume, so I'd typically be turning up the volume until it was as loud as the previous scenario, I think. Is there a difference then?

There would be a difference. The instruments would all be heard at the same loudness as the first scenario, but the detail would stick out and you'd hear them more clearly. Another comparison would be a 200x200 image stretched out to take up your computer screen, compared to a 2000x2000 picture. Yes, they'd both be the same size (volume), and the same image (song), but one would look like a total blur while the other wouldn't. (sorry if that made no sense, i've had a few drinks)

here's an example using Metallica's Death Magnetic album https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRyIACDCc1I

Yeah, it would help. The ADTOE was fine, but another one that sounds like FII would be dope

Are we talking about producing or mixing?

Mixing more than producing. But I think a few of the songs (Outcry, mostly) could use some shortening and/or rearranging.

[dongringo]

Well, I'm out then as this thread was supposed to be about whether or not DT needed someone other than JP to produce, not whether or not DT needed someone other than Andy Wallace to mix.  Have fun! 

[energythief]

What Syrinx said. The best way to note the difference is to listen to songs from different albums back to back. In this case I'd recommend setting up a playlist that runs like this:

1. Breaking All Illusions
2. New Millenium (one of the best mixed songs on the planet, IMO)
3. Far From Heaven
4. Anna Lee
5. Lost Not Forgotten
6. 6:00

Pay particular attention to where it sounds like the keyboards and bass are coming from, as well as the background vocals. It's a pretty huge difference. Turning the volume up or down won't matter - it's the distinction of instruments that does.

I will try this, thanks. Presumably I'm supposed to be noticing that the FII tracks sound better than the ADTOE ones? Just making sure.

[WildeSilas]

Well, it's hard to separate the two. The mixer can only get out what the producer put in. If the guitar is compressed right out of the box, or the selection of sounds all have a similar toooone, then the mixer is stuck with it to some degree. I don't think the problem here is necessarily with Andy Wallace, I would look more to the type of live mix JMX had in the studio, the drum mics that were used (what the hell happened with the ride and overhead mics btw?), etc. A good producer is highly attentive to the original tracks having a diversity of frequencies and tones and being mindful of the space they take up. It's really apparent on ADTOE that JP has not been very involved with the drum sounds until now - it shows up in the mix partly because of the way the drums were originally recorded. That's where having a seasoned producer with a diverse background and objective ear comes in. They can suggest mic-ing instruments differently, tracking various parts differently, or simply tossing out ideas the songwriters hadn't thought of to give strength not only to the writing (not needed in this case) but more importantly in the way the instruments sound from the get go.

[Peter Griffin]

emindead is quite possibly the worst poster here. not including me.

[dongringo]

Well, it's hard to separate the two. The mixer can only get out what the producer put in. If the guitar is compressed right out of the box, or the selection of sounds all have a similar toooone, then the mixer is stuck with it to some degree. I don't think the problem here is necessarily with Andy Wallace, I would look more to the type of live mix JMX had in the studio, the drum mics that were used (what the hell happened with the ride and overhead mics btw?), etc. A good producer is highly attentive to the original tracks having a diversity of frequencies and tones and being mindful of the space they take up. It's really apparent on ADTOE that JP has not been very involved with the drum sounds until now - it shows up in the mix partly because of the way the drums were originally recorded. That's where having a seasoned producer with a diverse background and objective ear comes in. They can suggest mic-ing instruments differently, tracking various parts differently, or simply tossing out ideas the songwriters hadn't thought of to give strength not only to the writing (not needed in this case) but more importantly in the way the instruments sound from the get go.

I'm listening to flac > Musical Fidelity V-Dac > Mapletree Ear+ HD tube headphone amp > Audeze LCD-2 headphones. That's a pretty revealing setup that will pick apart poor recording quality like there's no tomorrow and it sounds better than any DT album other than FII to my ears, so I just don't see a problem with it.  JP did a great job and so did Andy Wallace.

[3xodus]

Absolutely not.

I will say the cymbols sound a little bad at times though.. I just attributed it to the Pearls but maybe it was the micing. I doubt JP miced the drums himself though.

[ResultsMayVary]

Hell no. JP does a great job and this album delivers. If something isn't broken, then don't fix it.

[zipporaid]

not against it, but not sitting around thinking they should.  FII is one of my fav albums, so I'd lean towards outside producer.
They should get Adrien Belew or someone like that to do it.

[WildeSilas]

To be fair, I haven't listened to it on anything other than my car stereo yet. I just know that FII sounds fantastic no matter where/how I listen to it, but ADTOE just doesn't compare. Which is fine - very few albums compare to FII in that department. So yeah, Wallace did great, but could they benefit from a different producer? I look at what someone like Brendan O'Brian did for Mastadon (Crack the Skye) and King's X (Dogman) and I think I'd love DT to get a similar treatment.

[wolfking]

I'm not a huge fan of the album but the sound and production are quite excellent.

[BlobVanDam]

Nope. I think ADTOE is a clear sign that DT are capable of it on their own, and this was the first time they'd done it with this new band dynamic. I see it only getting better on the next album as each member contributes to the process. I think bringing in a producer would only hamper that at this stage.

And my top 2 DT albums were self produced by the band, so that's all the proof I need.

[SnakeEyes]

Up until the last album, yes, they definitely needed an outside producer.  This time, JP did a great job and, although he did an adequate, respectable job, I think an outside producer with years of experience would just make their music even better.  I don't understand why JP "has" to be the producer.  Why can't they just get someone else to help them out?