First Listen -- Off the cuff, I'm a bit underwhelmed...

[Dream Team]

Samsära, I completely agree with you. Thanks for posting my thoughts far more coherently than I ever could.

I'd like to add that the worst thing for me is that like you said, nothing stands out. Most of the times I've listened to the album there have been songs transitions that I didn't even notice. I didn't even know if I was listening to the same song as a minute ago or not, it feels kind of "samey".

Are you guys both saying that awesome chorus in Bridges in the Sky didn't stand out, even after repeat listens?!?!?

[Samsara]

sections of songs stand out.

WHOLE SONGS do not.

[Dublagent66]

I don't usually conclude my feelings about an album until after at least 5 spins.  My impressions of the single release and the teaser were not good, but it's still early.  With all the drama that has happened over the last 12 months, I wasn't very happy about the title they chose.  Too generic and unoriginal.  First, I wasn't looking forward to a new album, then I was and then I wasn't again.  It almost seems like a new album was rushed or forced because of the situation and the band needing to prove that they can move on without a hitch.  Well, with all that in the background and stuff bouncing back and forth from one side of your head to another, how can anyone concentrate on writing music?  Is it possible that this album could be considered filler until all members have a chance to gel into a more creative process?  Seems to me this album was put out just to prove a point.  I dunno, maybe I've just been in a very bad mood for a year.   

[The Silent Cody]

Well I don't know... I think that some songs are great as a whole. On The Backs Of Angels, BMUBMD, TITS, BITS and BTS. Other ones have great sections, but maybe is too early to decide that they are just one big mess... Maybe I listening album not so many times to write some statements, but I will be defender of ADToE

[7StringedBeast]

sections of songs stand out.

WHOLE SONGS do not.

Typically that's how good dream theater albums start out for me.  I can't remember much of what I heard.  That's what makes me know its a deep album with a lot going on.  I keep wanting to listen more and more to get all there is to get.  It took me forever to get into scenes from a memory.  So I'm guessing this album is going to be much like that.

Some people just get so negative over new music, its like they want to not like it.

[Samsara]

Some people just get so negative over new music, its like they want to not like it.

That certainly isn't me. I wanted very much to fall in love with this album right on first listen. I haven't really liked a DT album as a whole, in about a decade, so I was really hoping. Not meant to be with this one.

Unfortunately, "negative" is what I get from this release.

[7StringedBeast]

Some people just get so negative over new music, its like they want to not like it.

That certainly isn't me. I wanted very much to fall in love with this album right on first listen. I haven't really liked a DT album as a whole, in about a decade, so I was really hoping. Not meant to be with this one.

Unfortunately, "negative" is what I get from this release.

What was the last DT album you really liked?

[Samsara]

Some people just get so negative over new music, its like they want to not like it.

That certainly isn't me. I wanted very much to fall in love with this album right on first listen. I haven't really liked a DT album as a whole, in about a decade, so I was really hoping. Not meant to be with this one.

Unfortunately, "negative" is what I get from this release.

What was the last DT album you really liked?

Not sure why that is important for the discussion. From first track to last, with no major complaints, Falling Into Infinity. I thought Scenes was good, but very derivative and Jordan's keyboard playing made me want to vomit (not because he isn't good, because I think he's the best pure player DT has ever had), but his circus act runs make me cringe, as does his tone. But I still liked SFAM. I liked Six Degrees very much, but I did have issues with that as well. ToT started to go downhill. Derivative of other works again, they ruined Endless Sacrifice with the five minute pointless instrumental, etc. From there it was crash and burn.

But my opinions of those works don't really matter, other than to say I really, really, really wanted to love this new record.

[7StringedBeast]

Wow you are super critical of their output.  Well I guess that explains why you don't like this album.  You pretty much don't like Dream Theater's output from the last 10 or so years.  I mean calling 8V crashing and burning is a bit much to me.

I'm not surprised at all that you don't like this album.  If you had told me the last album you liked was 8V or SDOIT even I would have been confused. 

[livehard]

What exactly do you think Scenes was derived from?

[bosk1]

What exactly do you think Scenes was derived from?

The band said that when they decided to write a concept album, they consciously listened to Tommy, Operation: Mindcrime, and I think there was a third concept album they mentioned, but I'm not remembering it at the moment.  The goal was to look at some successful rock/metal concept albums for inspiration and draw from what made those albums successful.  So, in that sense, it was directly derivative of those albums.  What conclusions you want to draw from that, that's up to you.  I think most fans would say that is a logical and commendable approach.  Some would say it's not legit, but that makes no sense to me.  If you want to do something for the first time and have it be a success, one of the best things you can do is do some research and see who else out there did what you want to do, and look at what made them successful.  I think DT did that, and it shows in their product that they definitely did their homework and took some major pointers from those other successful albums, while still being very true to who DT are as a band.  So...derivative?  Yes.  Still original?  Yes.  Successful?  Yes.

[Samsara]

DT blatantly took Mindcrime, looked at the three song intro to the record, and did the same thing. Why? Because it was a perfect way to open a concept album.

There aren't any concept albums that I recall before or after Mindcrime that did this, except for Scenes. The only thing ORIGINAL about Scenes were the actual songs. Even the concept itself, if I remember correctly, is derivative of some movie, right? I forget. Could be wrong on that.

The point is, DT is one of the most derivative bands I have ever heard. Bosk, you agree they are derivative. You say "original," I'll say "to an extent." There is no denying their success. No denying their ability as players.

But ADToE is underwhelming. I just re-listened to Arch/Matheos' new record. Totally wipes the floor with ADToE. Of course people HERE won't agree. Anthrax is better too. And imagine that Mastodon probably will beat this out as well.

Glad you and other DT fans here are loving it. That isn't expected, given this forum.  Time will tell what the masses think. I am sure that in time, the reviews will be mostly positive. But Dream Theater, to me, while a great band, is just not my cup of tea any longer. I've hung with them for 15+ years, from summer 1996 when I first got into them, until now.

Bought every album on release day. I won't be again. Looking forward to the show though. They always put on an engaging live set.

[reneranucci]

They are a derivative band formed by integral musicians.

MP showed the inspiration corner for SFAM. The albums they brought to the studio were:
Tommy
The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway
Amused to Death
Ok computer
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band
Misplaced Childhood (or was it the other Marillion album?)
The Wall
The Final Cut

I felt really excited the moment they showed the albums, I don't know exactly why. Their inspiration resulted in my favorite album of all time so it worked really well IMO. 

[Priest of Syrinx]

What was the last DT album you really liked?

Not sure why that is important for the discussion. <snip>

I know this wasn't directed at me... but I think the question is important WRT your point of view.  Knowing the type(s) of music you do enjoy can only be beneficial to those who are interested in your opinion.  IIRC, in another thread you mentioned that you considered yourself a music critic (please correct me if I'm wrong!) and so we, as you "audience", can use this information about you to color our opinions of your opinions.

[Samsara]

I don't recall ever saying I was a music critic. There is some guy on here that wanted my screen name, and unfortunately made his very confusingly similar. So perhaps that's who you are thinking of.

And I disagree. All understanding or knowing the music I do enjoy then gives people a jaded comparison to use against a point of view. It doesn't matter what I enjoy. I enjoy everything. Prog, metal, hard rock, thrash, pop, film score, etc. I'm an open listener.

I gave in and mentioned where I started to lose it for DT when asked, and I shouldn't have. Because the replies that came in after I did were NOT surprising. People dismissing what I have to say (although they won't admit it) based on my likes and dislikes of the past 10 years.

The bottom line for me, as an open-minded listener is -- this album is not the best thing since sliced bread. It is a tolerable, middle of the catalog record for me.

Glad folks love it and disagree.

But all asking me for my DT likes and dislikes does is give ammunition to the folks that want to tell me why I feel the way I do, as replies have very clear shown (as I expected). 

reneranucci -- they took Mindcrime. It was said by MP. it may not be on the list, it was said. And the opening sequence was an OBVIOUS lift.

7String -- people are allowed to be critical of output. I was a huge fan of Dream Theater. Steadily, for the last decade, I have found that output to be severely lacking. As a fan, I keep hoping and keep supporting them by buying records and going to shows. As a fan and supporter, I am allowed to be critical. Just because one is a "fan" doesn't mean he/she has to automatically love and gush over every piece of music the band does. I enjoy Dream Theater. I still like them. I used to be a HUGE fan. They've disappointed me in recent years. Life goes on.  But I'll be critical when I feel I want to be critical.

[Millais]

I've listened too it one complete time so far.  While not instantly falling in love with it, I can tell it's gonna grow on me.  It's a pretty fucking complex album, with a whole lot going on.

keep on listening. it gets so much better with increased amounts of listens!

[Priest of Syrinx]

I don't recall ever saying I was a music critic. There is some guy on here that wanted my screen name, and unfortunately made his very confusingly similar. So perhaps that's who you are thinking of.

Thanks for clearing that up for me!


And I disagree. All understanding or knowing the music I do enjoy then gives people a jaded comparison to use against a point of view. It doesn't matter what I enjoy. I enjoy everything. Prog, metal, hard rock, thrash, pop, film score, etc. I'm an open listener.

I gave in and mentioned where I started to lose it for DT when asked, and I shouldn't have. Because the replies that came in after I did were NOT surprising. People dismissing what I have to say (although they won't admit it) based on my likes and dislikes of the past 10 years.

The bottom line for me, as an open-minded listener is -- this album is not the best thing since sliced bread. It is a tolerable, middle of the catalog record for me.

Glad folks love it and disagree.

But all asking me for my DT likes and dislikes does is give ammunition to the folks that want to tell me why I feel the way I do, as replies have very clear shown (as I expected). 

I'm always a fan of perspective, and the more you know about a commentator's tastes, the better chance you have of putting his commentary in the right perspective.  It's the difference between "talk" and "understanding".

Anyway, more to the point of DT & ATDOE and how it fits in the DT oeuvre... if an album doesn't tickle you (or my) fancy, then I don't think anyone should be derided for saying so.  If you think it's "average", then that's what it is.  I think ATDOE is excellent, but I do wonder how much of that is because of the contrast to BC&SL and SC, both of which left me mostly cold.  Plenty of bands I like, from The Beatles to Mastadon to Zappa and all points in between have put out songs/albums that have sucked.

[bosk1]

Yeah, Mindcrime was definitely on the list.  Whether they physically had a copy in the studio or not, I don't recall.  But I do recall them mentioning it as an influence in writing SFAM.  And why wouldn't it be?  It was a fantastic album for its time and was considered one of the quintessential concept albums.

But as far as the beginning tracks of SFAM being "lifted" from Mindcrime, I doubt it.  I mean, sort of indirectly, yeah.  But they've said they were going for a broadway show type of vibe, which is, structurally, what Mindcrime had.  It's pretty standard broadway musical structure to start with an intro, and then an overture (which Overture 1928 is, and Anarchy X is not), and then a big, bombastic start to the storyline.  The rest of the album similarly mimics a broadway musical structure as well (which they hinted at by dividing the album into "acts"). 

Bosk, you agree they are derivative.

Depends on what you mean by "derivative."  That's not a word I would use to describe them.

[jsem]

Wait. How did this turn into a Mindcrime->SFAM nugget conversation?

I think SFAM pays homage to Mindcrime in its layout though, nothing to point fingers at judgementally - I don't find anything wrong with DT's inspiration for SFAM, the result was a fantastic album.

[KevShmev]

I am pretty sure DT said that they brought a handful of concept albums into the inspiration corner for Scenes. 

But I don't see the first three tracks as being a direct ripoff of Mindcrime per se.  Plenty of other bands start off with an overture and then a regular song, and Regression is quite different from I Remember Now musically.

[yorost]

If it's Dream Theater and remotely similar to anything else is a disgraceful rip off.  End of story.

[bosk1]

I think SFAM pays homage to Mindcrime in its layout though, nothing to point fingers at judgementally - I don't find anything wrong with DT's inspiration for SFAM, the result was a fantastic album.

Yes and no.  Again, I don't think it was as much "Hey, let's use the structure of Mindcrime as a blueprint" as much as "Mindcrime (and a couple of other concept albums on that list) loosely follow the Broadway musical structure, which is the structure we're after."

[ReaPsTA]

Using structure is not necessarily the same as ripping off.  Every Hollywood movie, even the ones you think are good, all use the same structure, yet you wouldn't say The Dark Knight is the same movie as Star Wars.

[N4Player]

Definitely keep listening. I was mildly disappointed on first pass, but no other DT album has got me as quickly as this one has. There is a sameness to the feel of this album, but I look at that as a result of all the members being very focused and on the same page. I personally love this album and cannot get enough of it. I don't even have the desire to touch the iPod controls to skip anything. It is easily a top 3 for me. 

[Dream Team]

For most (not all) of the old fans who don't like DT any more, it's because they want focused 6-minute songs like Awake had. Well, DT is NEVER going back to that style, never. If you buy a DT album today, it's going to have insane instrumental passages as part of the product. Don't expect anything different, if you do you won't like the record.

IMO on ADTOE they combined insane playing with awesome choruses, great melodies, some really good lyrics, and James Labrie sings beautifully.

[Mebert78]

Sorry to hear you're not digging ADToE yet, Brian.  Hopefully, it grows on you with time!

[MirzekDT]

This album needs many many listens because of the unpredictability of the music and the song structure. It was very confusing and I wasn't impressed from first listen at all but now after 7 full listens I'm falling in love with it casue I finally know what's coming and I'm starting to be able to really pay attention and appreciate it.

[Lowdz]

DT blatantly took Mindcrime, looked at the three song intro to the record, and did the same thing. Why? Because it was a perfect way to open a concept album.

There aren't any concept albums that I recall before or after Mindcrime that did this, except for Scenes. The only thing ORIGINAL about Scenes were the actual songs. Even the concept itself, if I remember correctly, is derivative of some movie, right? I forget. Could be wrong on that.

The point is, DT is one of the most derivative bands I have ever heard. Bosk, you agree they are derivative. You say "original," I'll say "to an extent." There is no denying their success. No denying their ability as players.

But ADToE is underwhelming. I just re-listened to Arch/Matheos' new record. Totally wipes the floor with ADToE. Of course people HERE won't agree. Anthrax is better too. And imagine that Mastodon probably will beat this out as well.

Glad you and other DT fans here are loving it. That isn't expected, given this forum.  Time will tell what the masses think. I am sure that in time, the reviews will be mostly positive. But Dream Theater, to me, while a great band, is just not my cup of tea any longer. I've hung with them for 15+ years, from summer 1996 when I first got into them, until now.

Bought every album on release day. I won't be again. Looking forward to the show though. They always put on an engaging live set.

There is no accounting for taste is there? I love ADTOE and think the Arch/Mattheos has no memorable songs and they all sound the same. And don't even start asking about the singer 'cos he is awful. Not that he can't sing, just it sounds like fingernails down a blackboard to me.
I'm not trying to say you are wrong and I am right, of course, but it never ceases to amaze me how people  with "similar" tastes (We both love original QR for example) can still hear things in such diferent ways.

[livehard]

unbelievable, DT the most derivative band you've ever heard.  Done with thread, caio

[Priest of Syrinx]

DT blatantly took Mindcrime, looked at the three song intro to the record, and did the same thing. Why? Because it was a perfect way to open a concept album.

There aren't any concept albums that I recall before or after Mindcrime that did this, except for Scenes. The only thing ORIGINAL about Scenes were the actual songs. Even the concept itself, if I remember correctly, is derivative of some movie, right? I forget. Could be wrong on that.

The point is, DT is one of the most derivative bands I have ever heard. Bosk, you agree they are derivative. You say "original," I'll say "to an extent." There is no denying their success. No denying their ability as players.

But ADToE is underwhelming. I just re-listened to Arch/Matheos' new record. Totally wipes the floor with ADToE. Of course people HERE won't agree. Anthrax is better too. And imagine that Mastodon probably will beat this out as well.

Glad you and other DT fans here are loving it. That isn't expected, given this forum.  Time will tell what the masses think. I am sure that in time, the reviews will be mostly positive. But Dream Theater, to me, while a great band, is just not my cup of tea any longer. I've hung with them for 15+ years, from summer 1996 when I first got into them, until now.

Bought every album on release day. I won't be again. Looking forward to the show though. They always put on an engaging live set.

There is no accounting for taste is there? I love ADTOE and think the Arch/Mattheos has no memorable songs and they all sound the same. And don't even start asking about the singer 'cos he is awful. Not that he can't sing, just it sounds like fingernails down a blackboard to me.
I'm not trying to say you are wrong and I am right, of course, but it never ceases to amaze me how people  with "similar" tastes (We both love original QR for example) can still hear things in such diferent ways.

I like the new A/M album!  I wish Arch were a bit down in the mix, though.  The fact that the music is highly derivative sounding - at times, even generic - doesn't bother me.

[BFRedrocks]

If you can listen to Bridges in the Sky while driving at night and not have your doors blown off, you probably need to hand in your DT fandom card.

  

[tofee35]

Samsara, based on your comments in this thread, it seems like you simply outgrew DT. Regardless of their output in the last 10 years, I'm not sure you would've liked DT regardless

[Samsara]

For most (not all) of the old fans who don't like DT any more, it's because they want focused 6-minute songs like Awake had. Well, DT is NEVER going back to that style, never. If you buy a DT album today, it's going to have insane instrumental passages as part of the product. Don't expect anything different, if you do you won't like the record.

comments like this are the reason why telling anyone what you like and dislike are pointless. Because then you automatically get lumped into a "group" and your individual opinion is brushed off as being part of that "group."

Sorry Dream Team, but your post is utter bullshit. I like shorter songs, but I LOVE some of the longer songs, both on Awake, I&W, Scenes, Six Degrees, etc. So I don't fit in the grouping you are trying to push my opinion off into.

Your reply is the absolute perfect example of why I said earlier that my tastes or likes shouldn't matter in this discussion. Because once they are out there, my opinion of the current record is brushed off and lumped in with others...

[Herrick]

Samsara, this is off topic but do you ever get people accusing you of not being a "true" Dream Theater fan? I see this all the time in Youtube comments when a fan does not like every damn album/song a band puts out. Very annoying.

[dongringo]

Underwhelming is definitely not the way this album hit me. After 25+ listens I'm as hooked as a fish. I don't remember the last album that grabbed me like this and wouldn't let go. I'd say for those who it doesn't resonate with right away, it could be a grower for them. My brother for example...it took a few more listens than me to really get into it. Now he's on board and won't shut up about it. I told him today, "Where were you a few days ago when I was trying to talk to you about it?"  This really is a great album, in my opinion their best.