Author Topic: 9/11: Did the US foreign policy unintentionally provoke the attacks?  (Read 3690 times)

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Offline MetalMike06

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Re: 9/11: Did the US foreign policy unintentionally provoke the attacks?
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2011, 03:16:43 PM »

Here's something that I've tried to ponder.  If the US suddenly renounced all of it's interventionist ways, and adopted a policy of strict isolationism,  would we cease to be a target?  Personally,  I don't think so.  I think our policies certainly foster resentment, but I also think that there are many other factors.  We are a target if for no other reason than our status.  If it's not propping up Israel or installing puppet governments,  it's going to be our rampant consumerism,  our hogging of natural resources or some other quality.  Just as likely,  it's going to be the exceptionalism we're discussing in the other thread.

Just because we stop providing justifications doesn't mean we'll stop being hated for any number of reasons.


I think isolationism would be impossible for the US... Unless we somehow managed to produce everyhing in house and supply all that we need to sustain us energy wise. As long as we do business with the rest of the planet, we will have enemies. And, as long as we keep depending on the Saudis for oil, we can never really fully retaliate to anyone over there, regardless of the damage done to us.
I agree that it's not possible, but that's not relevant to my hypothetical scenario, and therefore the question at hand.  We're discussing whether or not our foreign policy provoked the attacks, and I'm questioning whether or not people think we would cease being targets if we adopted the most isolationist policies imaginable.

Cease being targets completely? Impossible to say with certainty, but FAR less than we are now. I don't think anything like 9/11 would have been carried out just because we have Budweiser and women in the workplace. There are many much more culturally/socially liberal countries out there that don't face the magnitude of foreign threats we do.

Bear in mind the US actually had a pretty good reputation in the middle east prior to the 1950s or so.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: 9/11: Did the US foreign policy unintentionally provoke the attacks?
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2011, 03:41:12 PM »
Here's something that I've tried to ponder.  If the US suddenly renounced all of it's interventionist ways, and adopted a policy of strict isolationism,  would we cease to be a target?  Personally,  I don't think so.  I think our policies certainly foster resentment, but I also think that there are many other factors.  We are a target if for no other reason than our status.  If it's not propping up Israel or installing puppet governments,  it's going to be our rampant consumerism,  our hogging of natural resources or some other quality.  Just as likely,  it's going to be the exceptionalism we're discussing in the other thread.

Would it stop right away? Hell no, but it's the only way to stop a perpetual cycle of hatred and violence. I think Praxis is wrong to say that we have to say we'll fight back if attacked - as much as I would love to - history has shown through Ghandi and MLK that the only way to break the cycle is non-violence. If terrorists did attack us, and we basically just fucking ignored the thing, then terrorism wouldn't work, and it would quickly fade away. It's psychological, and it's effective.

Do you honestly think Arabs would sit around all day thinking about how evil America is and how they want to destroy us? I'm sorry, but people everywhere are going to think about what's in their daily lives, what they have contact with, their job, what they're going to eat, who they want to fuck. When you're country is run by a US-propped up dictator, and when you have relatives and loved ones who die as a result of US invasions, and US policies, it gives someone a reason to think about how much they hate America. We give them reasons to hate us, and they hate us, and pointing out that this is a natural outcome doesn't mean that the outcome is necessary.

Also, we couldn't hog the natural resources like we do without our military and our intervention in the area.


Offline jsem

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Re: 9/11: Did the US foreign policy unintentionally provoke the attacks?
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2011, 03:55:49 PM »
This video explains the situation pretty well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NJLzfscMrg

Of course US foreign policy had to do with it. Going back all the way to stuff like the 1953 coup of Iran, when the Kermit Roosevelt-led CIA installed the Shah. This was also backed by Britain. Why? Because their democratically elected leader wanted to nationalize the oil resources in Iran, and with British oil companies futures being uncertain the governments stepped in. Of course, such actions create blowback. This has happened all over the world with the US. Guatemala (1954 coup orchestrated by CIA), propping up the Saudi house, propping up Mubarak in Egypt - plus all the money thrown at Israel.

It's no wonder there is hatred towards the US and the western world. What you see in countries like Venezuela, anti-Americanism, is actually a result of decades of terrible interventionist foreign policy (it may also have contributed to the hate of capitalism and free enterprise in South America, which supposedly is what the US stands in their eyes).

This is also the obvious reason why there are terrorists aiming to destroy the US. They couldn't care less if there was freedom in the US, women in the workplace and stuff like that. It's because the US has a history of intervention and regardless of motive, it's seen as invasive - this has stirred up the hate towards the US and indeed the western community as a whole.


Do you honestly think Arabs would sit around all day thinking about how evil America is and how they want to destroy us? I'm sorry, but people everywhere are going to think about what's in their daily lives, what they have contact with, their job, what they're going to eat, who they want to fuck. When you're country is run by a US-propped up dictator, and when you have relatives and loved ones who die as a result of US invasions, and US policies, it gives someone a reason to think about how much they hate America. We give them reasons to hate us, and they hate us, and pointing out that this is a natural outcome doesn't mean that the outcome is necessary.
Also this. Glad you said that.

Offline El Barto

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Re: 9/11: Did the US foreign policy unintentionally provoke the attacks?
« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2011, 04:03:25 PM »
Do you honestly think Arabs would sit around all day thinking about how evil America is and how they want to destroy us? I'm sorry, but people everywhere are going to think about what's in their daily lives, what they have contact with, their job, what they're going to eat, who they want to fuck. When you're country is run by a US-propped up dictator, and when you have relatives and loved ones who die as a result of US invasions, and US policies, it gives someone a reason to think about how much they hate America. We give them reasons to hate us, and they hate us, and pointing out that this is a natural outcome doesn't mean that the outcome is necessary.


Think about all of the people clamoring to run off and explode themselves for Allah, though.  They're doing it based on principle rather than as a result of our actions.  I suspect that a helluva lot of the people fighting against us have never been directly affected by us.  They're doing it because they're young, stupid and idealistic, and those qualities aren't going away.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: 9/11: Did the US foreign policy unintentionally provoke the attacks?
« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2011, 06:50:22 PM »
Do you honestly think Arabs would sit around all day thinking about how evil America is and how they want to destroy us? I'm sorry, but people everywhere are going to think about what's in their daily lives, what they have contact with, their job, what they're going to eat, who they want to fuck. When you're country is run by a US-propped up dictator, and when you have relatives and loved ones who die as a result of US invasions, and US policies, it gives someone a reason to think about how much they hate America. We give them reasons to hate us, and they hate us, and pointing out that this is a natural outcome doesn't mean that the outcome is necessary.


Think about all of the people clamoring to run off and explode themselves for Allah, though.  They're doing it based on principle rather than as a result of our actions.  I suspect that a helluva lot of the people fighting against us have never been directly affected by us.  They're doing it because they're young, stupid and idealistic, and those qualities aren't going away.

No, those qualities aren't going away, but the way they are expressed would change. Are young, stupid and idealistic Muslims any different then young, stupid and idealistic Christians? No, not really. There will always be teen angst, but to think that this means there will always be people in the Middle East who will literally blow themselves up to get a few of us is just plain absurd. Also, those people are taken up into a cause by a leader, in this case Osama, whom it seems unlikely would have had a problem with America if it wasn't for our meddling in Saudi Arabian affairs. Perhaps the same young people would do some bad things in their own area, but they would have no reason to have problems with America. Maybe they'd go rob the local convenience store, or blow up someone they have a problem with - but they would not target America. You're pragmatism seems too far-reaching in this case, you're right to point out that the human emotions would not change, but the venting of those human emotions would.

It's ridiculous to think that people would have such hatred for no reason. Even if someone isn't directly affected by our actions, our actions and our meddling influences and penetrates the entire culture and media. When kids grow up, US is talked about as the great evil, and so kids grow up believing that kind of thing. Without our meddling, there would NOT be the impetus or the catalyst for the vitriolic hatred some people have for us, nor the organized fight against our imperialism. If I go punch a punk kid in the face, that's going to start a fight. What you would be doing is looking at the punk after I punched him in the face, and said that his emotions are natural, so that it's inconceivable that no matter if I punched him in the face or not, he would be angry at me.

Think about all of the people clamoring to run off and explode themselves for Allah, though. 

Specifically regarding this, look at the reasons they give. Jihad's imply a sense of a lesser power fighting off a greater power, like David fighting of Goliath. In every case, when people go off and explode themselves for Allah, they're doing it because of some form of repression, some form of a Goliath, and they're David.






Offline Nick

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Re: 9/11: Did the US foreign policy unintentionally provoke the attacks?
« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2011, 07:14:12 PM »
Here's something that I've tried to ponder.  If the US suddenly renounced all of it's interventionist ways, and adopted a policy of strict isolationism,  would we cease to be a target?  Personally,  I don't think so.  I think our policies certainly foster resentment, but I also think that there are many other factors.  We are a target if for no other reason than our status.  If it's not propping up Israel or installing puppet governments,  it's going to be our rampant consumerism,  our hogging of natural resources or some other quality.  Just as likely,  it's going to be the exceptionalism we're discussing in the other thread.

Just because we stop providing justifications doesn't mean we'll stop being hated for any number of reasons.

Of course we will never be completely secure, but it would go a long way towards protecting American lives and money I believe. We have the largest and best military on earth, by far, and we can make it clear that an attack on America or its vital interests would result in severe action. If we actually live by those policies it would practically kill any serious threats to America. Sure, there will be other reasons to hate America, most likely other nations continuing to use the US as a scapegoat or such, but without solid and local reasons to hate America I don't think you could motivate people to accomplish something like 9/11.

At the end of the day what choice do we have? American Empire, especially since WWII has clearly weakened our image in the eyes of the world I think, and at the same time it has taken a large toll on our resources. If places ask for our help in non-military ways and the American people are willing to give it (as in many African countries where we feed and help prevent disease amongst millions), then go for it. But from a military standpoint we need to cut the bleeding that's slowly killing America and let the rest of the world handle themselves for awhile.
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Offline emindead

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Re: 9/11: Did the US foreign policy unintentionally provoke the attacks?
« Reply #41 on: September 14, 2011, 09:00:40 AM »
This video explains the situation pretty well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NJLzfscMrg

Of course US foreign policy had to do with it. Going back all the way to stuff like the 1953 coup of Iran, when the Kermit Roosevelt-led CIA installed the Shah. This was also backed by Britain. Why? Because their democratically elected leader wanted to nationalize the oil resources in Iran, and with British oil companies futures being uncertain the governments stepped in. Of course, such actions create blowback. This has happened all over the world with the US. Guatemala (1954 coup orchestrated by CIA), propping up the Saudi house, propping up Mubarak in Egypt - plus all the money thrown at Israel.

It's no wonder there is hatred towards the US and the western world. What you see in countries like Venezuela, anti-Americanism, is actually a result of decades of terrible interventionist foreign policy (it may also have contributed to the hate of capitalism and free enterprise in South America, which supposedly is what the US stands in their eyes).

This is also the obvious reason why there are terrorists aiming to destroy the US. They couldn't care less if there was freedom in the US, women in the workplace and stuff like that. It's because the US has a history of intervention and regardless of motive, it's seen as invasive - this has stirred up the hate towards the US and indeed the western community as a whole.
From all the great answers we've got here, I think this response is the most accurate I've read. (I can't see the video right now, I'm just basing on what it was said in the post)

Offline rumborak

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Re: 9/11: Did the US foreign policy unintentionally provoke the attacks?
« Reply #42 on: September 14, 2011, 09:50:12 AM »
Think about all of the people clamoring to run off and explode themselves for Allah, though.  They're doing it based on principle rather than as a result of our actions.  I suspect that a helluva lot of the people fighting against us have never been directly affected by us.  They're doing it because they're young, stupid and idealistic, and those qualities aren't going away.

That is true, and there will always be violent and fanatical individuals, but what counts is the environment those individuals are in. In an environment where the United States is just another country really far away that you get braindead blockbuster movies from, any attempt by those fanatical individuals will be met by the social surroundings with "dude, shut the fuck up". However, if the US is a country that people blame a lot of bad things on, those fanaticals hit fertile soil.
That's the subtlety Bush never understood in my opinion. Terrorism is like a brushfire; you can't keep the flames from flaring up unless you lower the ambient temperature.

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Offline El Barto

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Re: 9/11: Did the US foreign policy unintentionally provoke the attacks?
« Reply #43 on: September 14, 2011, 10:01:00 AM »
It just seems to me that there will always be resentment as long as we're doing better than them.  I suppose if we completely lose super-power status, then the Chinese might become the beneficiary of world-wide resentment, but as long as we're one of the top countries (in their eyes, at least),  people will still be bitter about it. 
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Offline rumborak

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Re: 9/11: Did the US foreign policy unintentionally provoke the attacks?
« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2011, 10:17:55 AM »
In my judgment, social envy is just not strong enough to create those feelings. For the longest time there was exactly that situation where there was not a lot of resentment towards the US but a good amount of social envy. The result: Lots of immigrants. People try to move to where it's better, not destroy it.

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Offline Implode

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Re: 9/11: Did the US foreign policy unintentionally provoke the attacks?
« Reply #45 on: September 14, 2011, 11:18:35 AM »
its called 'THE JIHAD'...  it is ingrained into to muslim culture.. only a fool would think otherwise.

I know this was a while back, but I just had to say this. The Jihad that tells people to kill nonbelievers is a misinterpretation of Jihad.

Offline jsem

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Re: 9/11: Did the US foreign policy unintentionally provoke the attacks?
« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2011, 12:05:33 PM »
its called 'THE JIHAD'...  it is ingrained into to muslim culture.. only a fool would think otherwise.

I know this was a while back, but I just had to say this. The Jihad that tells people to kill nonbelievers is a misinterpretation of Jihad.
This.

I know it's a terrible analogy, but it' like claiming that killing abortion doctors is ingrained into christian culture.

Offline El Barto

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Re: 9/11: Did the US foreign policy unintentionally provoke the attacks?
« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2011, 01:13:10 PM »
In my judgment, social envy is just not strong enough to create those feelings. For the longest time there was exactly that situation where there was not a lot of resentment towards the US but a good amount of social envy. The result: Lots of immigrants. People try to move to where it's better, not destroy it.

rumborak

Social envy combined with distortion of facts due to the influence of a few bad apples is.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't social envy a major component in one of the more unpleasant eras of your country's history?
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Offline rumborak

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Re: 9/11: Did the US foreign policy unintentionally provoke the attacks?
« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2011, 01:21:09 PM »
France imposed massive reparation costs on Germany after WWI. That is, according to Versailles, Germany would have bled close to anemia for 20 years or so. I think that's a very different league. And even then still, it still took a lot of side factors (the desire of a significant portion of the population to return to a king for example) to facilitate WWII.

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Offline El Barto

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Re: 9/11: Did the US foreign policy unintentionally provoke the attacks?
« Reply #49 on: September 14, 2011, 01:39:30 PM »
Czechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark, Norway?  I realize that we're talking apples and oranges here, but my point is that what you've labeled social envy is a massive component of Nationalism, and that's exactly the sort of thing that turns the envious into killers. 
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: 9/11: Did the US foreign policy unintentionally provoke the attacks?
« Reply #50 on: September 14, 2011, 05:05:29 PM »
We don't boarder the Middle East. Right now, Sunni's may be fighting Shi'ites, but there wouldn't be some huge attack on America.