Author Topic: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism  (Read 9492 times)

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Offline Orion1967

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #70 on: September 12, 2011, 12:19:28 PM »
@Chino and El Barto:  Again, I'm not saying character flaws should be disregarded, and I'm not necessarily talking about having a strong sense of patriotism.  I'm just saying, (1) to me, it is understandable that we in America should react more strongly to an attack on our home turf than a natural disaster somewhere else because we share a more direct common bond with those in this country, and (2) to me, it is sad that some (not all) don't see that bond as valid.  Barto, you raise good points about that bond, but I am not making it out to be as black and white as what you are indicating.  I merely say that it exists and, to me, should be acknowledged--not that it should blind us from problems that need fixing. 
Oh I agree with you.  As I've said,  I think it's human nature, and not exclusive to America.  I also wasn't directing that at you.  Really, the only difference is that while you think it's sad that so many don't feel the connection,  I think it's sad that so many feel it so strongly, to the exclusion of common sense.
Well that is the connundruum isn't it?  Those that feel the patriotic pull and pride in our great and (yes at times, seriously flawed) wonderful nation are equally puzzled at how people that live here, enjoy the benefits of living here, yet feel no sense of belonging or pride of being a part of this country...
  Look at it this way, if you had a sister who had some flaws, but was still your sister, yet someone else was calling her a whore I would hope that you would still have strong enough feelings to defend her and stand up for her.   Perhaps not the most ideally or eloquently stated analogy but one that I feel is similar. 

For those of us old enough to have been alive and in the workforce in America (not in elementary school and not really capable of grasping the full ramifications of the attack) 9/11 is one of those days that gripped us and is one we will never forget.  It is one of those defining moments in every generation where people stop and reflect and thank their god for family, freinds and freedom and grieve the losses of fellow Americans.
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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #71 on: September 12, 2011, 12:32:49 PM »
@Chino and El Barto:  Again, I'm not saying character flaws should be disregarded, and I'm not necessarily talking about having a strong sense of patriotism.  I'm just saying, (1) to me, it is understandable that we in America should react more strongly to an attack on our home turf than a natural disaster somewhere else because we share a more direct common bond with those in this country, and (2) to me, it is sad that some (not all) don't see that bond as valid.  Barto, you raise good points about that bond, but I am not making it out to be as black and white as what you are indicating.  I merely say that it exists and, to me, should be acknowledged--not that it should blind us from problems that need fixing. 
Oh I agree with you.  As I've said,  I think it's human nature, and not exclusive to America.  I also wasn't directing that at you.  Really, the only difference is that while you think it's sad that so many don't feel the connection,  I think it's sad that so many feel it so strongly, to the exclusion of common sense.
  Look at it this way, if you had a sister who had some flaws, but was still your sister, yet someone else was calling her a whore I would hope that you would still have strong enough feelings to defend her and stand up for her.   Perhaps not the most ideally or eloquently stated analogy but one that I feel is similar. 

makes enough sense.

but because your sister is your sister isn't a reason to like her at all. she's some girl who came out of the same general mess of genes as you. if you happen to like her then great. if she's got some serious flaws then why not dislike her?

too often i hear people say "well if you don't like it then get out" (not that i've heard it here) (also i am talking about america now and not my sister you SICK FUCK) but that's not really what most, er, "unpatriotic" people such as myself want. we want to stay and either change things or just bitch about stuff on forums forever

either one

Offline Scheavo

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #72 on: September 12, 2011, 12:42:38 PM »
I think the reason why 9/11 hit Americans so hard was the element of surprise. We were not really at war with anyone. There wasn't really any indication that we were in danger. Had there been threats, or small events leading people to believe we were at risk, I don't think it would have been as big of a shock. Other countries with heavy casualties from attacks, usually have it in the back of their minds that it is a possiblitly. An attack like the ones on 9/11 were not even thought possible by most Americans. It wasnt just the attacks themselves, but the way they were carried out. Had a bomb been brought into the country, that would be one thing. But these attacks were carried out by people who used our schools to learn their dirty work. Got through what Americans thought was tight security. Took control over one of the hardest vehicles to stop. Then proceeded to slam them into the most iconic buildings in our country. Then the fact that a tradgedy happened, only to be repeated minutes later was very moving to some. Having the same attack happen twice and having double the destruction made it seem much more devistating than say if the emire state building was struck.

I'm sorry, but you can only say this if you ignore world events leading up to 9/11. First of all, the WTC had been bombed in '93 (I'll ignore Oklahoma City just because it was done by different people / movement ), there was the USS Cole, there were numerous embassy bombings around the world. We weren't technically at War with anyone (hell, we're still not technically at war with most people!), but it's blind and ignorant to think that 9/11 happened out of nowhere, and that no one should have seen it coming. We had the intelligence on the issue, we just ignored it.

THere were threats, there were smaller events... Americans were just too ignorant and blissfully unaware to notice, or to care.

Offline El Barto

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #73 on: September 12, 2011, 12:47:44 PM »
Well that is the connundruum isn't it?  Those that feel the patriotic pull and pride in our great and (yes at times, seriously flawed) wonderful nation are equally puzzled at how people that live here, enjoy the benefits of living here, yet feel no sense of belonging or pride of being a part of this country...
  Look at it this way, if you had a sister who had some flaws, but was still your sister, yet someone else was calling her a whore I would hope that you would still have strong enough feelings to defend her and stand up for her.   Perhaps not the most ideally or eloquently stated analogy but one that I feel is similar. 

For those of us old enough to have been alive and in the workforce in America (not in elementary school and not really capable of grasping the full ramifications of the attack) 9/11 is one of those days that gripped us and is one we will never forget.  It is one of those defining moments in every generation where people stop and reflect and thank their god for family, freinds and freedom and grieve the losses of fellow Americans.


But what if she is a whore?  You see, that goes both ways.  Would you tell your sister to just go on being what she is because she's your sister and you lover her, or would you tell her to quit being a fucking whore?

In the end, though,  it's just a simple matter of some people being wired differently than others.  I for the life of me can't figure out why the hell the rest of the Earth doesn't see that I'm right in all things,  but I accept that they have their own views.  As for my wiring,  I'm the ultimate pragmatist and I'm quite adept at compartmentalizing.  As for my views on 911, I see a ton of different issues, reflecting good and bad on a lot of different parties, and I find it annoying that any view that isn't up and down patriotic is greeted with the "go back to Iran" mentality. 

And I'm certainly old enough to appreciate the gravity of what happened, but that doesn't mean that it has to affect me the same way as anybody else.  In my case, it provided me with a much improved view of existentialism.  I'd say that it improved me in that regard. 
« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 01:15:53 PM by El Barto »
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #74 on: September 12, 2011, 12:56:31 PM »
You know what bothers me? It seems like the people who advocate patriotism, and how we're in this together, or often (not always) the same people who think Universal Health Care is a bad thing.

Offline bosk1

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #75 on: September 12, 2011, 01:07:08 PM »
Well that is the connundruum isn't it?  Those that feel the patriotic pull and pride in our great and (yes at times, seriously flawed) wonderful nation are equally puzzled at how people that live here, enjoy the benefits of living here, yet feel no sense of belonging or pride of being a part of this country...
  Look at it this way, if you had a sister who had some flaws, but was still your sister, yet someone else was calling her a whore I would hope that you would still have strong enough feelings to defend her and stand up for her.   Perhaps not the most ideally or eloquently stated analogy but one that I feel is similar. 

For those of us old enough to have been alive and in the workforce in America (not in elementary school and not really capable of grasping the full ramifications of the attack) 9/11 is one of those days that gripped us and is one we will never forget.  It is one of those defining moments in every generation where people stop and reflect and thank their god for family, freinds and freedom and grieve the losses of fellow Americans.


But what if she is a whore? 

Then...  :eyebrows:
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Offline Tick

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #76 on: September 12, 2011, 05:03:19 PM »
Really though, why wouldn't America make a huge deal out of the most devastating attack on the country in its history? What do really think should happen every year? Seriously.

This isn't true either. I would argue that the British storming our country and burning the Capital to the ground was a bit more devastating to such a young country. The President had to flee the White House for crying out loud! :D

BC
I don't agree. We were fighting to be independent. It really wasn't totally our country at that point. That's why it was a fight for independence.

We were already the United States of America by that point.

I'm not really sure if you are trolling here, but your knowledge of History is a little frightening if you think that the so called War of 1812 was a war for Independence, or that there was a White House during the Revolutionary War.

BC
Really, dude? I get confused thinking your talking about the revolutionary war and you get all condescending and ask if I'm trolling?
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #77 on: September 12, 2011, 05:17:40 PM »
Bedwetting Cosmonaut, the tone of your posts is incredibly condescending and belittling.  You are free to argue whatever points you wish based on your knowledge of history.  But to belittle what you perceive to be others' lack of knowledge of history is just a personal attack, plain and simple.  That needs to stop.

Actually bosk, if you don't mind me saying, while I agree about your call on his tone, BC was correct that the British storming the capital and burning the White House down was during the War of 1812, which is a totally separate conflict from the Revolutionary War, and that it would be wrong to think either a President or White House existed during the actual Revolutionary War.  I can see why he'd be surprised (and perhaps a little :facepalm:) by tick's response.  I'm not saying his way of handling it was that great, but factually he was spot-on and there's no arguing against what he said without contradicting the facts.

Why is 911 called a terrorist attack and Pearl Harbor isn't?

BC
9/11 wasn't committed by a state, and was intentionally designed to kill civilians.  The attack on Pearl Harbour was an attack by a state on military targets. 

Though Pearl Harbour (not really the attack itself, but rather how American society before it is remembered) is another example of a whitewashing of American history.

Yeah Barto sorry to say it, but it has nothing to do with FDR not having a label like 'terror.' Terror is an attack carried about by non-state actors on non-military targets with the intention of achieving political effects, and Pearl Harbor is only one of those things.

Although GP I'm curious as to what you're referring to with that latter comment?  The one about how American society before PH is remembered, I mean.
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Offline Tick

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #78 on: September 12, 2011, 05:26:49 PM »
Bedwetting Cosmonaut, the tone of your posts is incredibly condescending and belittling.  You are free to argue whatever points you wish based on your knowledge of history.  But to belittle what you perceive to be others' lack of knowledge of history is just a personal attack, plain and simple.  That needs to stop.

Actually bosk, if you don't mind me saying, while I agree about your call on his tone, BC was correct that the British storming the capital and burning the White House down was during the War of 1812, which is a totally separate conflict from the Revolutionary War, and that it would be wrong to think either a President or White House existed during the actual Revolutionary War.  I can see why he'd be surprised (and perhaps a little :facepalm:) by tick's response.  I'm not saying his way of handling it was that great, but factually he was spot-on and there's no arguing against what he said without contradicting the facts.



Actually, you don't have to be a prick because someone misunderstands you. I made a mistake.
and considering America now has a history of nearly 250 years under its belt, I would contend 9/11 is the biggest atrocity in its history.
Bosk was right, as usual.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #79 on: September 12, 2011, 05:30:13 PM »
Yeah Barto sorry to say it, but it has nothing to do with FDR not having a label like 'terror.' Terror is an attack carried about by non-state actors on non-military targets with the intention of achieving political effects, and Pearl Harbor is only one of those things.
I agree that Pearl didn't constitute terrorism.  I was mostly editorializing about the reaction to 911.

I don't think I agree with your definition, though.  There's nothing that says it can't be state sponsored, and I don't think military targets are off the table, either.  Regardless, 911 qualified and Pearl didn't. 

and considering America now has a history of nearly 250 years under its belt, I would contend 9/11 is the biggest atrocity in its history.
I think there are some black-skinned and red-skinned people who might disagree with you.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #80 on: September 12, 2011, 05:34:03 PM »
Yeah Barto sorry to say it, but it has nothing to do with FDR not having a label like 'terror.' Terror is an attack carried about by non-state actors on non-military targets with the intention of achieving political effects, and Pearl Harbor is only one of those things.
I agree that Pearl didn't constitute terrorism.  I was mostly editorializing about the reaction to 911.

I don't think I agree with your definition, though.  There's nothing that says it can't be state sponsored, and I don't think military targets are off the table, either.  Regardless, 911 qualified and Pearl didn't. 

Dude I think there are a few international relations theorists who would disagree with you. :P  I just took a college course about the future of war, one of those points being the operational definition of a terror attack.  To take your military target exception for example, just war lawyers and international theorists would usually call that an assassination and a legitimate target.  That's why in California back in like 1999 or something when Al Qaeda blew up a military vessel, it was considered a legitimized non-terror attack.

tl;dr It's not my definition.
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Offline Tick

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #81 on: September 12, 2011, 05:37:16 PM »
Yeah Barto sorry to say it, but it has nothing to do with FDR not having a label like 'terror.' Terror is an attack carried about by non-state actors on non-military targets with the intention of achieving political effects, and Pearl Harbor is only one of those things.
I agree that Pearl didn't constitute terrorism.  I was mostly editorializing about the reaction to 911.

I don't think I agree with your definition, though.  There's nothing that says it can't be state sponsored, and I don't think military targets are off the table, either.  Regardless, 911 qualified and Pearl didn't. 

and considering America now has a history of nearly 250 years under its belt, I would contend 9/11 is the biggest atrocity in its history.
I think there are some black-skinned and red-skinned people who might disagree with you.
Really, Barto, yer gonna play that card? Ok.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #82 on: September 12, 2011, 05:37:55 PM »
And why not?  The near-genocide of an entire group of indigenous people is a terrible tragedy.
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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #83 on: September 12, 2011, 05:39:44 PM »
And why not?  The near-genocide of an entire group of indigenous people is a terrible tragedy.

Not to mention 400 years of slavery, torture and legalized murder.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #84 on: September 12, 2011, 05:40:23 PM »
Wait, are we talking about the Indians or African slaves?
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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #85 on: September 12, 2011, 05:41:22 PM »
Wait, are we talking about the Indians or African slaves?

Well 400 years of slavery was africans, legalized torture and murder I guess applies to both.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #86 on: September 12, 2011, 05:43:21 PM »
Not to mention segregation and isolation of both, and I don't even know whether that's still true or not for either.
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Offline j

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #87 on: September 12, 2011, 05:54:22 PM »
Yeah, it's pretty unbelievable how such a monumental atrocity can so often be selectively overlooked.

That said, trying to compare two tragedies by body count is totally nonsensical too.

-J

Offline Super Dude

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #88 on: September 12, 2011, 05:56:33 PM »
Who's comparing by body count?
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Offline SPNKr

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #89 on: September 12, 2011, 06:16:42 PM »
and considering America now has a history of nearly 250 years under its belt, I would contend 9/11 is the biggest atrocity in its history.
I think there are some black-skinned and red-skinned people who might disagree with you.
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Offline j

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #90 on: September 12, 2011, 06:17:57 PM »
@SD: I thought it was being sort of alluded to by some people on the first page of the thread, unless I'm remembering incorrectly.  I read the thread the other day but didn't have a chance to post.

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Offline Tick

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #91 on: September 12, 2011, 06:25:38 PM »
This is about America the nation, not about the slaughtering of American Indians. If were going to go there, its not worth discussing. Don't make it seem as if the Indians were peace loving pacifists. Yes we came to claim this land, but don't think the Indians wouldn't have killed every white man in there path with no apologies if they were able to do so. I'm sure they tried. There were plenty of Indians who were savages, and put quite a few arrows into as many as they could. Its a savage world, and it has always been survival of the fittest.

Now if were discussing the worst atrocity on America the nation, it would be 9/11, imo.
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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #92 on: September 12, 2011, 06:26:25 PM »
Wow.
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Offline Tick

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #93 on: September 12, 2011, 06:28:34 PM »
Yup. Tick is dead on.  She's not your type.  Move on.   Tick is Obi Wan Kenobi


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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #94 on: September 12, 2011, 06:33:29 PM »
Just to make a more substantial reply, I will repeat your overall point in a different situation.


Sure I broke into my neighbors house, but don't think for a second that if I hadn't walked up to him and shot him in the eye that he wouldn't have tried to kill me first, and his wife was very savage toward me, now if you ask me the greatest tragedy I have ever faced was when the someone threw a firebomb through the house I stole from my neighbor after murdering him".
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #95 on: September 12, 2011, 06:35:25 PM »
Adami, is your universal translator broken again?
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Offline El Barto

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #96 on: September 12, 2011, 06:36:50 PM »
Christ, Tick.  I was really just screwing with you over your shaky use of the word atrocity.  A spirited defense of the genocide of indigenous peoples was about the last thing I was expecting. 
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Offline Tick

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #97 on: September 12, 2011, 06:37:52 PM »
Just to make a more substantial reply, I will repeat your overall point in a different situation.


Sure I broke into my neighbors house, but don't think for a second that if I hadn't walked up to him and shot him in the eye that he wouldn't have tried to kill me first, and his wife was very savage toward me, now if you ask me the greatest tragedy I have ever faced was when the someone threw a firebomb through the house I stole from my neighbor after murdering him".
Nah, I aint buying that analogy. Do you think from the moment America was discovered there weren't arrows flying into the backs of anyone spotted by an Indian? Do you think they weren't out to kill us whether we came in peace or not? Do you?
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Offline Tick

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #98 on: September 12, 2011, 06:40:28 PM »
Christ, Tick.  I was really just screwing with you over your shaky use of the word atrocity.  A spirited defense of the genocide of indigenous peoples was about the last thing I was expecting.
Surprise!
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Offline El Barto

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #99 on: September 12, 2011, 06:44:33 PM »
Well for one thing,  I think quite a few of the Injuns were quite friendly and welcoming.  Part of the basis for the first American Thanksgiving was that the local Indians kept the Plymouth colonists from starving to death.

The bigger issue though is the situation you're presenting.  If somebody breaks into your home, you're going to feel inclined to shoot him dead.  Yet you're now suggesting that he'd be justified in killing you first, preemptively. 
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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #100 on: September 12, 2011, 06:46:29 PM »
Just to make a more substantial reply, I will repeat your overall point in a different situation.


Sure I broke into my neighbors house, but don't think for a second that if I hadn't walked up to him and shot him in the eye that he wouldn't have tried to kill me first, and his wife was very savage toward me, now if you ask me the greatest tragedy I have ever faced was when the someone threw a firebomb through the house I stole from my neighbor after murdering him".
Nah, I aint buying that analogy. Do you think from the moment America was discovered there weren't arrows flying into the backs of anyone spotted by an Indian? Do you think they weren't out to kill us whether we came in peace or not? Do you?

It doesn't matter. If you go to a neighbors house and he screams "GET OUT OR I'LL KILL YOU!" do you leave? Or do you shoot him and live in his house?


And yes, I know this is quite ironic coming from an Israeli.
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Offline zxlkho

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #101 on: September 12, 2011, 06:46:45 PM »
This is about America the nation, not about the slaughtering of American Indians. If were going to go there, its not worth discussing. Don't make it seem as if the Indians were peace loving pacifists. Yes we came to claim this land, but don't think the Indians wouldn't have killed every white man in there path with no apologies if they were able to do so. I'm sure they tried. There were plenty of Indians who were savages, and put quite a few arrows into as many as they could. Its a savage world, and it has always been survival of the fittest.

Now if were discussing the worst atrocity on America the nation, it would be 9/11, imo.

I normally wouldn't post here, but I've been following this thread because it's been an interesting read. I'd just like to say that this is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read on the internet. You just defended the slaughtering of thousands of Native Americans. What the actual fuck.
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You're a fucking stupid bitch.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #102 on: September 12, 2011, 06:47:21 PM »
Well for one thing,  I think quite a few of the Injuns were quite friendly and welcoming.  Part of the basis for the first American Thanksgiving was that the local Indians kept the Plymouth colonists from starving to death.

The bigger issue though is the situation you're presenting.  If somebody breaks into your home, you're going to feel inclined to shoot him dead.  Yet you're now suggesting that he'd be justified in killing you first, preemptively.

It's too bad I don't have my book Before the Revolution with me, which could actually provide some empirical evidence that proves you right.  In fact, there were chiefs that tried to open kin-group relations with some Europeans via gift-giving, which operated in the same way giving your daughter as a local chieftain to marry worked in medieval Europe.  It was a way of establishing level-to-level political ties.
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Offline lateralus88

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #103 on: September 12, 2011, 06:48:34 PM »
This is about America the nation, not about the slaughtering of American Indians. If were going to go there, its not worth discussing. Don't make it seem as if the Indians were peace loving pacifists. Yes we came to claim this land, but don't think the Indians wouldn't have killed every white man in there path with no apologies if they were able to do so. I'm sure they tried. There were plenty of Indians who were savages, and put quite a few arrows into as many as they could. Its a savage world, and it has always been survival of the fittest.

Now if were discussing the worst atrocity on America the nation, it would be 9/11, imo.
Yeah, tell that to the handful of remaining Indians who's heritage, culture and people have been wiped out by capitalist greed. To this day we are still screwing the Natives. And there is literally not a single way to pay them back for it all, not even if we could afford, monetarily speaking, to pay reparations because of how much money we have taken right from underneath their noses.

Yeah, nice one man. Classy.
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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #104 on: September 12, 2011, 06:50:33 PM »
I got an idea Tick, if you rephrase your statement as "9/11 was the worst atrocity on legal citizens of the united states of america" then this entire argument could be avoided.
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