9/11 and American Exceptionalism

[Orion1967]

I have to say that this thread has pretty much disgusted me through and through. 
Bottom line is this.  America was attacked on 9/11/01, muslim extremists hijacked four civilian airliners and turned them into missiles, destroying two of the most prominant buildings in the world.  They also struck at and did great damage to the Pentagon, and no one will really know for sure I don't think the EXACT target of the airliner that passengers tried to take back and crashed into Pensylvania.  America was not at war with anyone at the time, we did not strike out in a military fashion at Osama or any country that AlQueda was involved with.  Hell, we had no idea as a nation who the fuck AlQueda even was until after 9/11.  So if you are not American then you really have no fucking clue what it means to us as Americans so all your supposition, interpretation and opinions on the matter do not add up to dried shit.  Those of us that lost family members or friends in an un-provoked, cowardly attack (yes it WAS cowardly, taking a few brainwashed jihadists and getting them to fly a plane into a building doesnt mean they are courageous, just stupid and menatlly weak) on Soveregn American soil have every right to have emotional feelings about this day.   Those Americans that did not lose anyone directly have every fucking right to be proud of our country, stand up for for thier belief in freedom.  And those Americans that either think we are completely wrong, or are disgusted by us as a nation, well, I support your right to have those feelings.  American men and women have died to support your right to protest at the private funerals of fallen American soldiers and I for one am glad that you HAVE the freedom to say what I think is disrespectful bullshit.

If you are just an American hater, well as the saying goes, "Haters gonna hate, no matter what" so nothing I can really do to change your mind.

[lordxizor]

There's abolutely nothing wrong with remembering a tragic day in our countries history. Just because it a insignificant in terms of the number dead versus various other attrocities (natural or otherwise) around the world doesn't mean it isn't worth remembering. It's OK for some things to be more personal than others. Hell, a close relative of mine dying is going to affect me more than 300,000 people being killed a world away. That's just the way it is.

However I'm tired of the whole "everything changed on 9/11" thing. I'm tired of using 9/11 as an excuse for military actions, defense spending, crazy security policies, etc. It's been ten years. Let's remember the dead and honor the sacrifices of the heroes on that day. It was a horrible event that I will never forget. But it's time to rise up and show those who wish to harm us that they're not going to take away what makes America so great. Unfortunately in a lot of ways they succeeded in that regard.

[El Barto]

I think the reason why 9/11 hit Americans so hard was the element of surprise. We were not really at war with anyone. There wasn't really any indication that we were in danger. Had there been threats, or small events leading people to believe we were at risk, I don't think it would have been as big of a shock. Other countries with heavy casualties from attacks, usually have it in the back of their minds that it is a possiblitly. An attack like the ones on 9/11 were not even thought possible by most Americans. It wasnt just the attacks themselves, but the way they were carried out. Had a bomb been brought into the country, that would be one thing. But these attacks were carried out by people who used our schools to learn their dirty work. Got through what Americans thought was tight security. Took control over one of the hardest vehicles to stop. Then proceeded to slam them into the most iconic buildings in our country. Then the fact that a tradgedy happened, only to be repeated minutes later was very moving to some. Having the same attack happen twice and having double the destruction made it seem much more devistating than say if the emire state building was struck.

Actually,  that might actually qualify as an aspect of the American exceptionalism that we're discussing.  One of the things that bothered me about what happened was all of these people asking why?  Americans had become highly complacent, based on the misconception that we were too big, bad, strong, whatever, to be attacked.  We'd made plenty of enemies trying to obtain that status, and there's no such thing as big, bad, or strong enough keep somebody from wanting to bust you in the nose.  The fact that so many people couldn't imagine why somebody would want to attack was a big part of the problem, me thinks.

As for act of God vs. deliberate attack that so many people are discussing,  I fail to see how it matters.  Aside from a bit of embarrassment, that is. 

[Chino]

I think the reason why 9/11 hit Americans so hard was the element of surprise. We were not really at war with anyone. There wasn't really any indication that we were in danger. Had there been threats, or small events leading people to believe we were at risk, I don't think it would have been as big of a shock. Other countries with heavy casualties from attacks, usually have it in the back of their minds that it is a possiblitly. An attack like the ones on 9/11 were not even thought possible by most Americans. It wasnt just the attacks themselves, but the way they were carried out. Had a bomb been brought into the country, that would be one thing. But these attacks were carried out by people who used our schools to learn their dirty work. Got through what Americans thought was tight security. Took control over one of the hardest vehicles to stop. Then proceeded to slam them into the most iconic buildings in our country. Then the fact that a tradgedy happened, only to be repeated minutes later was very moving to some. Having the same attack happen twice and having double the destruction made it seem much more devistating than say if the emire state building was struck.

Actually,  that might actually qualify as an aspect of the American exceptionalism that we're discussing.  One of the things that bothered me about what happened was all of these people asking why?  Americans had become highly complacent, based on the misconception that we were too big, bad, strong, whatever, to be attacked.  We'd made plenty of enemies trying to obtain that status, and there's no such thing as big, bad, or strong enough keep somebody from wanting to bust you in the nose.  The fact that so many people couldn't imagine why somebody would want to attack was a big part of the problem, me thinks.

As for act of God vs. deliberate attack that so many people are discussing,  I fail to see how it matters.  Aside from a bit of embarrassment, that is.

I didn't feel though America was big, bad, and strong.... But I did feel safe. But seeing an unprecedented event occur twice, side by side, made me feel not so safe anymore. I think e majority of Americans felt the same way. Remembering 9/11 helps remind Americans that while we may not be as safe as we think, and while we all have or differences with each other, we are still a country that needs to work together. If thousands of memorial services is what it takes, then so be it.

[EPICVIEW]

I have to say that this thread has pretty much disgusted me through and through. 
Bottom line is this.  America was attacked on 9/11/01, muslim extremists hijacked four civilian airliners and turned them into missiles, destroying two of the most prominant buildings in the world.  They also struck at and did great damage to the Pentagon, and no one will really know for sure I don't think the EXACT target of the airliner that passengers tried to take back and crashed into Pensylvania.  America was not at war with anyone at the time, we did not strike out in a military fashion at Osama or any country that AlQueda was involved with.  Hell, we had no idea as a nation who the fuck AlQueda even was until after 9/11.  So if you are not American then you really have no fucking clue what it means to us as Americans so all your supposition, interpretation and opinions on the matter do not add up to dried shit.  Those of us that lost family members or friends in an un-provoked, cowardly attack (yes it WAS cowardly, taking a few brainwashed jihadists and getting them to fly a plane into a building doesnt mean they are courageous, just stupid and menatlly weak) on Soveregn American soil have every right to have emotional feelings about this day.   Those Americans that did not lose anyone directly have every fucking right to be proud of our country, stand up for for thier belief in freedom.  And those Americans that either think we are completely wrong, or are disgusted by us as a nation, well, I support your right to have those feelings.  American men and women have died to support your right to protest at the private funerals of fallen American soldiers and I for one am glad that you HAVE the freedom to say what I think is disrespectful bullshit.

If you are just an American hater, well as the saying goes, "Haters gonna hate, no matter what" so nothing I can really do to change your mind.

Right on.. Let us not forget the first attack on the WTC.. for those of us who work and live in the NYC area we lost so much, and so did our country, if the moron Clinton had done his job it would never havve gotten to the point we were so vulnerable..

GOD BLESS AMERICA...

The comments and ignorance I read by some in this thread makes me sick.. but Im not suprised.. typical..

[Bedwetting Cosmonaut]

I think the reason why 9/11 hit Americans so hard was the element of surprise. We were not really at war with anyone.

I'm sorry, but this is just completely false. Anyone who really knows History should not be shocked or surprised that 9/11 happened.

BC

[Tick]

Really though, why wouldn't America make a huge deal out of the most devastating attack on the country in its history? What do really think should happen every year? Seriously.

[Bedwetting Cosmonaut]

Really though, why wouldn't America make a huge deal out of the most devastating attack on the country in its history? What do really think should happen every year? Seriously.

This isn't true either. I would argue that the British storming our country and burning the Capital to the ground was a bit more devastating to such a young country. The President had to flee the White House for crying out loud!

BC

[Dublagent66]

There's a huge difference between deaths caused by natural disasters and innocence being attacked by terrorists.  9/11 was a deliberate act and affected people from 90 different countries.  I also don't buy into this God Bless America crap either.  What about the other countries that have suffered needless loss due to terrorism?  What about God Bless the World?  God Bless America is stupid, selfish, arrogant bullshit and I'm sick to fucking death of it.

[7StringedBeast]

I feel like people totally forget that we commemorate the anniversary of Pearl Harbor every year as well, and that was about 70 years ago now.  Perhaps we should just get over it and forget about that attack too?  It's ok to reflect and remember and honor those who died.  Nothing wrong with that.

[Tick]

Really though, why wouldn't America make a huge deal out of the most devastating attack on the country in its history? What do really think should happen every year? Seriously.

This isn't true either. I would argue that the British storming our country and burning the Capital to the ground was a bit more devastating to such a young country. The President had to flee the White House for crying out loud!

BC

I don't agree. We were fighting to be independent. It really wasn't totally our country at that point. That's why it was a fight for independence.

[Bedwetting Cosmonaut]

Really though, why wouldn't America make a huge deal out of the most devastating attack on the country in its history? What do really think should happen every year? Seriously.

This isn't true either. I would argue that the British storming our country and burning the Capital to the ground was a bit more devastating to such a young country. The President had to flee the White House for crying out loud!

BC

I don't agree. We were fighting to be independent. It really wasn't totally our country at that point. That's why it was a fight for independence.

We were already the United States of America by that point.

I'm not really sure if you are trolling here, but your knowledge of History is a little frightening if you think that the so called War of 1812 was a war for Independence, or that there was a White House during the Revolutionary War.

BC

[GuineaPig]

Revenge for York!

[bosk1]

Bedwetting Cosmonaut, the tone of your posts is incredibly condescending and belittling.  You are free to argue whatever points you wish based on your knowledge of history.  But to belittle what you perceive to be others' lack of knowledge of history is just a personal attack, plain and simple.  That needs to stop.

[Bedwetting Cosmonaut]

Bedwetting Cosmonaut, the tone of your posts is incredibly condescending and belittling.  You are free to argue whatever points you wish based on your knowledge of history.  But to belittle what you perceive to be others' lack of knowledge of history is just a personal attack, plain and simple.  That needs to stop.

My apologies, Lord Vader.

[bosk1]

Bedwetting Cosmonaut, the tone of your posts is incredibly condescending and belittling.  You are free to argue whatever points you wish based on your knowledge of history.  But to belittle what you perceive to be others' lack of knowledge of history is just a personal attack, plain and simple.  That needs to stop.

My apologies, Lord Vader.

Apology accepted, Captain Needa.

[El Barto]

I feel like people totally forget that we commemorate the anniversary of Pearl Harbor every year as well, and that was about 70 years ago now.  Perhaps we should just get over it and forget about that attack too?  It's ok to reflect and remember and honor those who died.  Nothing wrong with that.

I agree, but,  there's a huge difference between how we remember and honor those who died at Pearl and that shit we had yesterday. 

[Bedwetting Cosmonaut]

Why is 911 called a terrorist attack and Pearl Harbor isn't?

BC

[7StringedBeast]

I feel like people totally forget that we commemorate the anniversary of Pearl Harbor every year as well, and that was about 70 years ago now.  Perhaps we should just get over it and forget about that attack too?  It's ok to reflect and remember and honor those who died.  Nothing wrong with that.

I agree, but,  there's a huge difference between how we remember and honor those who died at Pearl and that shit we had yesterday.

Honestly I didn't watch a thing from yesterday.  I have no idea what went on.  Just didn't catch any of it.  I hate how politicians seem to be using it as fuel for campaigns.  That is my biggest beef.  Actually, my beef isn't with 9/11 and remembering it.  I have no problem with pride for your country and patriotism.  My biggest problem is that our government and politicians are jokes of people.

[GuineaPig]

Why is 911 called a terrorist attack and Pearl Harbor isn't?

BC

9/11 wasn't committed by a state, and was intentionally designed to kill civilians.  The attack on Pearl Harbour was an attack by a state on military targets. 

Though Pearl Harbour (not really the attack itself, but rather how American society before it is remembered) is another example of a whitewashing of American history.

[El Barto]

Why is 911 called a terrorist attack and Pearl Harbor isn't?

BC

Because FDR didn't need to invent a new paradigm with which to exploit the attack. 

[Bedwetting Cosmonaut]

Why is 911 called a terrorist attack and Pearl Harbor isn't?

BC

Because FDR didn't need to invent a new paradigm with which to exploit the attack. 

Good call there, man. He seemingly didn't need justification to lock up the minorities that "happened" to be of the same race/religion of the attackers..

BC

[El Barto]

His justification, right or wrong, was that we were in a formal state of war with Tojo, and by extension Adolph and Benito.  No such state existed after 911, so TPTB invented one. 

[GuineaPig]

Actually, Germany and Italy declared war on the United States.

Which is a good thing, because even after Pearl Harbour, FDR would've had a tough time getting the US public to go along with a war against Germany.

[Perpetual Change]

In fact, it saddens me that there are more and more people in this day and age who do NOT feel that bond and somehow think it is a negative thing for those of us that do.

You can probably blame politics and the government itself. I mean, how can you expect young people to be proud when, no matter who's president, half of the population is screaming that they're the devil incarnate and source of all our woe? When was the last time we had a president who wasn't considered to be that by the other party? I grew up being taught that Clinton was a scumbag, and by the time I was a teenager I was able to tell no one had any respect for Bush either. And now that Obama's in office, it's the same. How can we expect the next generation to be "proud" to be American when are willing to demonize the president in front of them (so long as it's from whatever party we're not a member of). I think we can chalk losing that sense of national pride and faith in the government as another victim of the unending partisan nonsense. Case and point:

Let us not forget the first attack on the WTC.. for those of us who work and live in the NYC area we lost so much, and so did our country, if the moron Clinton had done his job it would never havve gotten to the point we were so vulnerable..

[bosk1]

I'm not saying there isn't blame to be passed around on a lot of different fronts. While that may be true, it still doesn't take away from the fact that it is sad that there are more and more people in this day and age who do NOT feel that bond and somehow think it is a negative thing for those of us that do.

[Perpetual Change]

I'm not saying it's not sad. But I'm having a hard time coming up with other people to blame, tbh.

[bosk1]

To clarify, I'm just saying that I think "blame" is irrelevant.

[Chino]

I'm not saying there isn't blame to be passed around on a lot of different fronts. While that may be true, it still doesn't take away from the fact that it is sad that there are more and more people in this day and age who do NOT feel that bond and somehow think it is a negative thing for those of us that do.

I'm not saying I don't agree with you, because I do. At the same time though, I can understand why people aren't as patriotic anymore. The world has changed so much the last few decades, and your country isn't the only thing you have anymore. Business, communications, everyday purchases, etc... have all become so globalized, it's hard for people to not acknowledge other countries. A few decades ago, the citizens loved this country, we thought we were the best, and in reality to a large degree were the best. It's no secret today that the US has fallen behind in a lot of areas. We don't produce anything anymore. Our kids are lazy. We are no longer ahead of the technology curve. Our education system is so out of whack it isn't funny. I can get why many people (maybe subconciously) aren't praising America and maybe aren't "proud to be an American". It's twisted.

[El Barto]

I'm not saying there isn't blame to be passed around on a lot of different fronts. While that may be true, it still doesn't take away from the fact that it is sad that there are more and more people in this day and age who do NOT feel that bond and somehow think it is a negative thing for those of us that do.

It's not that I don't feel any bond.  I just find that the strength of that bond to be what's so puzzling.  I get that I share a common history with 300m other people, and that we share other similarities.  Yet that doesn't preclude me from seeing them as the type of person that they are.  Some good, others bad.  Some right, others wrong.  Some heroic, others cowardly.  It seems like there are a ton of those 300m who absolutely blinded by that bond, and that bothers me.  My hometown football team are a bunch of assholes.  The majority of my state's population have character issues that trouble me deeply.  Not every single person in the military is deserving of our support.  America isn't always right.  Even in the relatively small sampling that is DTF, we're seeing some of that black/white mentality that can't see the bigger picture beyond that common bond.

[bosk1]

@Chino and El Barto:  Again, I'm not saying character flaws should be disregarded, and I'm not necessarily talking about having a strong sense of patriotism.  I'm just saying, (1) to me, it is understandable that we in America should react more strongly to an attack on our home turf than a natural disaster somewhere else because we share a more direct common bond with those in this country, and (2) to me, it is sad that some (not all) don't see that bond as valid.  Barto, you raise good points about that bond, but I am not making it out to be as black and white as what you are indicating.  I merely say that it exists and, to me, should be acknowledged--not that it should blind us from problems that need fixing. 

[7StringedBeast]

I just want to say these last 3 posts have been very well written and thought out. 

[El Barto]

@Chino and El Barto:  Again, I'm not saying character flaws should be disregarded, and I'm not necessarily talking about having a strong sense of patriotism.  I'm just saying, (1) to me, it is understandable that we in America should react more strongly to an attack on our home turf than a natural disaster somewhere else because we share a more direct common bond with those in this country, and (2) to me, it is sad that some (not all) don't see that bond as valid.  Barto, you raise good points about that bond, but I am not making it out to be as black and white as what you are indicating.  I merely say that it exists and, to me, should be acknowledged--not that it should blind us from problems that need fixing. 

Oh I agree with you.  As I've said,  I think it's human nature, and not exclusive to America.  I also wasn't directing that at you.  Really, the only difference is that while you think it's sad that so many don't feel the connection,  I think it's sad that so many feel it so strongly, to the exclusion of common sense. 

[bosk1]

Cool.  Gotcha.

[Ben_Jamin]

I read Antigoons link and that's exactly how I feel about 9/11. Its an excuse basically, and their using the dead as a crutch. It shoudnt take a day to remember, as they are all in the hearts of their loved ones.