Author Topic: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism  (Read 9491 times)

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Offline ZBomber

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #105 on: September 12, 2011, 06:54:34 PM »
This is about America the nation, not about the slaughtering of American Indians. If were going to go there, its not worth discussing. Don't make it seem as if the Indians were peace loving pacifists. Yes we came to claim this land, but don't think the Indians wouldn't have killed every white man in there path with no apologies if they were able to do so. I'm sure they tried. There were plenty of Indians who were savages, and put quite a few arrows into as many as they could. Its a savage world, and it has always been survival of the fittest.

Now if were discussing the worst atrocity on America the nation, it would be 9/11, imo.

That's crazy talk. You want me to believe that the Native Americans would actually try to fight off European invaders? Why would anyone ever fight back if their people are being killed and their land is being taken from them?

Oh yeah.... to try and defend themselves, their family, and the land they lived on.

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #106 on: September 12, 2011, 06:56:02 PM »
I got an idea Tick, if you rephrase your statement as "9/11 was the worst atrocity on legal citizens of the united states of america" then this entire argument could be avoided.
Hell, if he just would have said "on" America, then I would have left it alone.  I was just razzing him over his vaguely written premise.   :lol
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Offline bosk1

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #107 on: September 12, 2011, 06:59:05 PM »
That's not what this thread is about.  Thanks, S.D. and others for taking it so far off track that there's not point in letting it continue.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #108 on: September 12, 2011, 08:19:50 PM »
Would a mod/admin consider unlocking it under the agreement that we abandon the whole Native American issue?

I think there is still very interesting discussion to be had on the subject, and it would be a shame if it went to waste just because the thread veered slightly off topic for a few posts. 

Yes.  And also under the condition that people stop baiting Tick.  Just because his beliefs may be unpopular with certain members, or because he tends to be "bull in a china shop" in the way he articulates them sometimes, doesn't give people the right to bait him.

Everyone understand?  Good.  Let's try again.

...and although it goes without saying, I'll just add:  Tick, the fact that I'm slapping others on the wrist for the way they treated you, doesn't give you a free pass to act out either, okay?  Everybody, just let's let past infractions in the thread go. 
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Offline Tick

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #109 on: September 13, 2011, 06:36:01 AM »
Before I continue on track may I just say(as the bull in a China shop that I am)I was just playing devils advocate with the native American thing to take an opposing view. My apologies to those I offended.

Back on track. Some here have said, America makes a bigger deal out of 9/11 than it should be, when we don't make a big deal of of tragedy's like the Earthquake in Haiti. As many have said, its not the same thing to compare a terrorist attack to a natural disaster, but if you think that's the case, realize we don't hold our own natural disasters such as Katrina even close to the level of 9/11. Those kinds of events are ones where the response and outpouring comes initially when the victims are hurting and in need. We don't tend to memorialize those events years into the future.
America does suffer from a feeling of exceptionalism. I have a always felt that way. The whole pride comes before a fall thing is so taking place in this country. That being said, I don't think too much is made out of 9/11 every year. Any event that changes a nation forever and the way it conducts itself in every way is a very big deal. The greed of the richest 1% in this country is ultimately what is destroying us, and that at this point is irreversible.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2011, 07:06:02 AM by tick »
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Online Chino

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #110 on: September 13, 2011, 07:26:07 AM »
Another thing I think people need to remember.... While there have been many other events that some may rank higher than 9/11, this is one of the first times such an event was captured from so many angles. Not only did mayhem take place, but Americans watched it unfold live, and in good quality too. If a bomb goes off in a train station, odds are the only footage you will see is from a security camera, and then news report footage of the aftermath. I think that's the key, seeing the destruction after the fact. Watching the events of 9/11 unfold before our very eyes, the uncertainty of whether or not you were safe, and fearing how many more may be killed in the coming hours, leaves a much stronger memory in someone's mind. Lets just say the towers were around in the 50's and the same event took place, I don't think it would have impacted Americans the way it did ten years ago. Knowing a serious event happened, and watching a serious event happen will greatly affect how people will remember the day.

Offline Bedwetting Cosmonaut

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #111 on: September 13, 2011, 07:27:36 AM »
I think my biggest issue with this whole thing is how shocked many people were, and how "shocked" the people who run this country seemed to be. The CIA has a word for this, "blowback". I said it before, and I will say it again. 9/11 was not a random attack; it was just simply another event in an ongoing series on conflicts that has been going on since the 1970s. To pretend that America was sitting by idly and minding its own business when BAM, we were hit out of no where is simply laughable.

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #112 on: September 13, 2011, 07:35:44 AM »
But that doesn't mean it shouldn't bother anyone....

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #113 on: September 13, 2011, 07:57:25 AM »
I think my biggest issue with this whole thing is how shocked many people were, and how "shocked" the people who run this country seemed to be. The CIA has a word for this, "blowback". I said it before, and I will say it again. 9/11 was not a random attack; it was just simply another event in an ongoing series on conflicts that has been going on since the 1970s. To pretend that America was sitting by idly and minding its own business when BAM, we were hit out of no where is simply laughable.

BC

This.  It bothers me somewhat when people call it unexpected, unprovoked, or even say that we unintentionally provoked terrorists to react, especially considering it was more than a simple situation of military bases in their countries.  We did all the things necessary to provoke a violent response (see Somalia in the early 90s and Iraq throughout that entire decade), and only naivete can explain our surprise.
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Offline Bedwetting Cosmonaut

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #114 on: September 13, 2011, 08:03:56 AM »
But that doesn't mean it shouldn't bother anyone....

I didn't say that. You can be bothered all you want. I will however say that the more bothering thing is the disgusting limits that this country has taken the event to in order to pass policy, write laws and start wars.

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #115 on: September 13, 2011, 08:14:02 AM »
I think my biggest issue with this whole thing is how shocked many people were, and how "shocked" the people who run this country seemed to be. The CIA has a word for this, "blowback". I said it before, and I will say it again. 9/11 was not a random attack; it was just simply another event in an ongoing series on conflicts that has been going on since the 1970s. To pretend that America was sitting by idly and minding its own business when BAM, we were hit out of no where is simply laughable.

BC

This.  It bothers me somewhat when people call it unexpected, unprovoked, or even say that we unintentionally provoked terrorists to react, especially considering it was more than a simple situation of military bases in their countries.  We did all the things necessary to provoke a violent response (see Somalia in the early 90s and Iraq throughout that entire decade), and only naivete can explain our surprise.

Well that's because the majority of Americans are uneducated about our place in the world.

But that doesn't mean it shouldn't bother anyone....

I will however say that the more bothering thing is the disgusting limits that this country has taken the event to in order to pass policy, write laws and start wars.

BC

That I agree with.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #116 on: September 13, 2011, 08:16:28 AM »
Right, although I think that's a problem that can't be simply waved away.  Considering the large role we did have in the world (and still do, in spite of recent troubles), we really can't afford to be ignorant of the extent of our reach and the consequences thereof (it seems a little too obvious to point out that that is, after all, how we ended up in this mess in the first place).
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Offline Tick

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #117 on: September 13, 2011, 08:34:24 AM »
I think my biggest issue with this whole thing is how shocked many people were, and how "shocked" the people who run this country seemed to be. The CIA has a word for this, "blowback". I said it before, and I will say it again. 9/11 was not a random attack; it was just simply another event in an ongoing series on conflicts that has been going on since the 1970s. To pretend that America was sitting by idly and minding its own business when BAM, we were hit out of no where is simply laughable.

BC

This.  It bothers me somewhat when people call it unexpected, unprovoked, or even say that we unintentionally provoked terrorists to react, especially considering it was more than a simple situation of military bases in their countries.  We did all the things necessary to provoke a violent response (see Somalia in the early 90s and Iraq throughout that entire decade), and only naivete can explain our surprise.

Well that's because the majority of Americans are uneducated about our place in the world.


Most Americans are too busy trying to keep there head above water in rough times to be thinking about terrorist attacks.
Of coarse its unexpected to the average hard working person. Who would have thought...
 "Hey honey, come look at the TV. Its that all out terrorist attack we've been waiting for. Wow, its just what I expected and more."
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Offline Bedwetting Cosmonaut

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #118 on: September 13, 2011, 08:35:42 AM »
I think my biggest issue with this whole thing is how shocked many people were, and how "shocked" the people who run this country seemed to be. The CIA has a word for this, "blowback". I said it before, and I will say it again. 9/11 was not a random attack; it was just simply another event in an ongoing series on conflicts that has been going on since the 1970s. To pretend that America was sitting by idly and minding its own business when BAM, we were hit out of no where is simply laughable.

BC

This.  It bothers me somewhat when people call it unexpected, unprovoked, or even say that we unintentionally provoked terrorists to react, especially considering it was more than a simple situation of military bases in their countries.  We did all the things necessary to provoke a violent response (see Somalia in the early 90s and Iraq throughout that entire decade), and only naivete can explain our surprise.

Well that's because the majority of Americans are uneducated about our place in the world.


Most Americans are too busy trying to keep there head above water in rough times to be thinking about terrorist attacks.
Of coarse its unexpected to the average hard working person. Who would have thought...
 "Hey honey, come look at the TV. Its that all out terrorist attack we've been waiting for. Wow, its just what I expected and more."

The summer/early fall of 2001 was not hard times.

BC

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Offline Tick

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #119 on: September 13, 2011, 08:43:49 AM »
I think my biggest issue with this whole thing is how shocked many people were, and how "shocked" the people who run this country seemed to be. The CIA has a word for this, "blowback". I said it before, and I will say it again. 9/11 was not a random attack; it was just simply another event in an ongoing series on conflicts that has been going on since the 1970s. To pretend that America was sitting by idly and minding its own business when BAM, we were hit out of no where is simply laughable.

BC

This.  It bothers me somewhat when people call it unexpected, unprovoked, or even say that we unintentionally provoked terrorists to react, especially considering it was more than a simple situation of military bases in their countries.  We did all the things necessary to provoke a violent response (see Somalia in the early 90s and Iraq throughout that entire decade), and only naivete can explain our surprise.

Well that's because the majority of Americans are uneducated about our place in the world.


Most Americans are too busy trying to keep there head above water in rough times to be thinking about terrorist attacks.
Of coarse its unexpected to the average hard working person. Who would have thought...
 "Hey honey, come look at the TV. Its that all out terrorist attack we've been waiting for. Wow, its just what I expected and more."

The summer/early fall of 2001 was not hard times.

BC
Says who? Because we weren't deeply  rooted in recession you think the country was riding the gravy train? No, I don't think so. People were still struggling 10 years ago to make ends meet. They certainly were not obsessing about a major attack on there country.
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Offline Bedwetting Cosmonaut

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #120 on: September 13, 2011, 08:46:50 AM »
I think my biggest issue with this whole thing is how shocked many people were, and how "shocked" the people who run this country seemed to be. The CIA has a word for this, "blowback". I said it before, and I will say it again. 9/11 was not a random attack; it was just simply another event in an ongoing series on conflicts that has been going on since the 1970s. To pretend that America was sitting by idly and minding its own business when BAM, we were hit out of no where is simply laughable.

BC

This.  It bothers me somewhat when people call it unexpected, unprovoked, or even say that we unintentionally provoked terrorists to react, especially considering it was more than a simple situation of military bases in their countries.  We did all the things necessary to provoke a violent response (see Somalia in the early 90s and Iraq throughout that entire decade), and only naivete can explain our surprise.

Well that's because the majority of Americans are uneducated about our place in the world.


Most Americans are too busy trying to keep there head above water in rough times to be thinking about terrorist attacks.
Of coarse its unexpected to the average hard working person. Who would have thought...
 "Hey honey, come look at the TV. Its that all out terrorist attack we've been waiting for. Wow, its just what I expected and more."

The summer/early fall of 2001 was not hard times.

BC
Says who? Because we weren't deeply  rooted in recession you think the country was riding the gravy train? No, I don't think so. People were still struggling 10 years ago to make ends meet. They certainly were not obsessing about a major attack on there country.

It's almost irrelevent to even make a point like that though. Everyone in America was shocked that it happened on the day it happened. No one in their right mind sits around waiting for a terrorist attack to happen. You are taking what I said and rewording it to say something entirely different. Of course we were shocked that it happened on 9/11/01. But, in the aftermath of the attack, after figuring out who was responsible, it should have shed light on most people. "Hey, maybe they attacked us because we've been messing around with them for the last 30 years." A thought like that should enter most people's minds. Again, obviously on the DAY it happened EVERYONE was shocked.

BC

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Offline GuineaPig

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #121 on: September 13, 2011, 08:59:15 AM »
A comparison to Pearl Harbour in that respect is apt.  That the attack happened when it did (during negotiations) and where it did (much nearer to the US mainland than thought possible) was the surprising aspects.  The American military anticipated a strike in the near future via military intelligence, and any person with a basic knowledge of foreign relations knew that cutting off Japan's oil supply would draw the two countries into conflict.
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Offline Orion1967

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #122 on: September 13, 2011, 09:26:42 AM »
Wait, are we talking about the Indians or African slaves?

Well 400 years of slavery was africans, legalized torture and murder I guess applies to both.

Who kept african slaves for 400 years?  Not baiting, just genuinely curious where you are draving the number from.  Not disagreeing with you either.  But bear in mind, African's do not have the monopoly on having been slaves, just remember that.
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Offline GuineaPig

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #123 on: September 13, 2011, 09:29:56 AM »
Yeah, that number seems out of wack.  Slavery only lasted for about two hundred years (I think the first widespread slavery for means of tobacco production started in Virginia fifty or so years after the establishment of Jamestown).  If you want to be really loose with the definition (extend it to when all minorities were afforded the un-infringed right to vote) you can get another 100 years.
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Offline Orion1967

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #124 on: September 13, 2011, 09:38:28 AM »
Yeah, that number seems out of wack.  Slavery only lasted for about two hundred years (I think the first widespread slavery for means of tobacco production started in Virginia fifty or so years after the establishment of Jamestown).  If you want to be really loose with the definition (extend it to when all minorities were afforded the un-infringed right to vote) you can get another 100 years.

I wouldnt be that loose...   slavery implies ownership of a human being by another.  Not some existential definition based upon a class, race being "kept down by the man".  Did blacks have it bad, of course they did.  Just like immigrating Irish did, Immigrating Italians did and of course just like the Native Americans that we European based immigrants pretty much cheated and fucked out of their country. :-\ 
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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #125 on: September 13, 2011, 09:45:51 AM »
Obviously American slavery can only have started when America did, but we merely continued the practice of the Brits who'd been kidnapping Africans since the 1500s.  From that standpoint,  while America couldn't have been directly involved before we were standing on our own two feet, we certainly owe our existence to that point in large part to African slaves. 
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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #126 on: September 13, 2011, 11:09:28 AM »
Obviously American slavery can only have started when America did, but we merely continued the practice of the Brits who'd been kidnapping Africans since the 1500s.  From that standpoint,  while America couldn't have been directly involved before we were standing on our own two feet, we certainly owe our existence to that point in large part to African slaves.

This, and the Dutch as well.
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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #127 on: September 13, 2011, 02:13:31 PM »
(I think the first widespread slavery for means of tobacco production started in Virginia fifty or so years after the establishment of Jamestown).

Not being a dick here, but I just learned this today. It was 1619. 12 years after the initial founding.

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Re: 9/11 and American Exceptionalism
« Reply #128 on: September 13, 2011, 03:59:12 PM »
Obviously American slavery can only have started when America did, but we merely continued the practice of the Brits who'd been kidnapping Africans since the 1500s.  From that standpoint,  while America couldn't have been directly involved before we were standing on our own two feet, we certainly owe our existence to that point in large part to African slaves.

This, and the Dutch as well.
And the arabs too, who had been taking slaves from Africa for centuries and centuries before the Europeans started doing it.