MP about I&W and ADTOE connection

[InertSolo]

snip

The thing is, it makes absolutely no sense to get so worked up over this like you are. DT shouldn't take any flak for using a general structure for songs because guess what? Everyone does it. And I mean practically everyone in music. What matters is the actual music and lo and behold, it came out sounding nothing like the songs in Images and Words besides generally being a return to Progressive Rock.

[Adami]

Thiago, here's the problem. There's nothing original or innovative about the song structures on I&W, nothing in the least. Nothing about them constitutes creative art, nothing about them sets them apart as original works of are. They work, with the rest of the aspects of the song to create that unique thing. Sliding octaves is not original, a 4/4 beat isn't original (especially since UAGM wasn't 4/4), a double time double bass chorus that switches between on and off beats isn't original.....TONS of power metal bands do it every song. What is most likely is something called confirmation bias. You noticed something, and then formed your theory and then that created how you viewed everything else, and that could have easily happened to other people. You noticed a similarity, then started noticing other similarities and dismissing differences.....notice how you accuse DT of having a different intro to the song as a way to throw fans off that was written after the rest of the song? Yea, it takes away credibility.

However it didn't end there, you had to go and imply that DT should end their careers for using similar structures to their own songs while stating that using styles of other bands (intentionally) isn't nearly as big of a deal. So basically what it comes down to is your statement is as follows

"Without MP they did something they already did, thus should end their careers, but with MP they did what other bands did.......but that's no big deal". Unfortunately, such a bias and outwardly anti-Mangini Era DT that it can't be taken seriously. I'm sorry.

[ResultsMayVary]

What do you even mean by "step down from the podium, you're not better than anyone else"?
You keep insisting on this!

News flash, you could probably rank everyone in the world by what they're "better at" than others at something. That's what olympics are made of, why there are job interviews, why some bands make it and some don't (well, hopefully anyway). You seem to be very insecure dude.

Having said that, I never said that I was better than anyone at any point in my article. Just because I feel strongly about the things I'm hearing doesn't mean I'm proclaiming I'm "better than others". Many people have heard what I'm hearing in parallel. They might not have written about it (and got spared from all the hate mail), but they are out there and have contacted me showing their support.

Even if I did say I was better than someone at something... So what? If someone says I'm not as good in Spaceship Engineering, guess what? I won't be pissed, cuz I pretty much suck at it.

If by PODIUM you mean Blabbermouth... Believe me, I wouldn't want to be put there (in this context) at all.

By podium, I mean your condescending tone, use of your opinion and displaying it as a fact, the fact you think you're better than everyone else (see your blog where you state DT fans don't know anything about music). Yes, people can be ranked for what they're good at, but ranking an entire fanbase and saying they don't know anything is stupid and ignorant. And I'm not insecure, just enjoying this whole exchange! It's entertaining! 

Your article never said you were better, but your blog you posted after the article did, especially after you received a lot of criticism on MP.com.

See this:

Yeah, definitely somewhere else.
I've received many messages/emails from pissed off fans, and read a few sour posts on other forums.

I was even motivated to write a follow-up note about it with a stab-y attractive title...
Dream Theater fans aren't that knowledgeable about music after all!(?)

I'm glad many fans have now agreed on this theory, and Mike Portnoy himself posted here to back me up on it.

Cut the bullshit, my friend.

[tjanuranus]

Since this is the "connections" thread, I'll post this here: Some impressions after a selective listen.

Build Be Up, Break Me Down: What a terrible attempt at a single. This song makes no sense whatsoever.

Lost Not Forgotten: Did anyone else noticed that the song opens with a piano that resembles the melody of Lawrence of Arabia?

This is the Life: This is the blatantly obvious mash-up of their previous material. After the intro, the guitar leads to a reminiscent vocal melody of Under a Glass Moon. Then "Some of us choose to live gracefully and proclaim that His will be done. Scriptures they heed have misled them..." 1:45 mark: insert Live at Budokan's Hollow Years solo here. "This is the life we belong to..." as a fan one could think this is a direct jab at MP. The vocal melody in this song is good... but the main structure of of TITL reminds me too much of Sacrified Sons. Tasty guitar solo by JP.

Bridges in the Sky: When you finally listen to this song you understand why it was originally called The Shaman's Trance -I remember that I complained with the original title, but I think they should have kept it, "Bridges in the Sky" doesn't make sense with what the story tells- though those kind of titles don't fit with DT's style. The guttural part reminds me of the crazy sex orgy party scene in Eyes Wide Shut: AWESOME. 2:03 riff is very similar to something from System of a Down (you can listen to it again at 2:32), then they go to a safer DT riff. When JLB finally kicks in I start to finally enjoying it for its own merit. The final guttural part brings a smirk to my face, you know its silly but you want it there.

Outcry: Nonsensical song. We get it, you recovered your style, now you need a real producer that can lead you to write something good.

Far From Heaven: Same as above. It has a lame Disney melody vibe. You can imagine the Hunchback of Notre Dame singing it.


Beneath the Surface: This could have been a timeless ballad. Beautiful guitar. Excellent vocals... but it lacks one final, one piece of melody that will make you remember it forever. Had that part existed, we would be looking at DT's biggest hit. All and all it's a beautiful song. After the moog solo I feel the build-up that I felt with In the Presence of Enemies Pt. 2 but it suffer that it couldn't reach a climax. This song lacks a climax. That's it.

These opinions are fucking horrible mostly. 

[Kotowboy]

Lock This Thread

[Heretic]

Well, Marla, I have 600+ posts and joined at the end of 2010. I'm no long-time contributor myself, but at least my introduction into the community wasn't a complete bash of DT, their new album, the hard work they put into that album, the entire community, and what not. I'm glad you're a serious DT fan-- but, being one, can't you realize the foolishness of some of the things you're saying?

I don't give a flying fish if DT decided to re-use certain structures for the most part. Good for them! They've done it before! They'll do it again! Does it really hurt the music? No, in fact, it doesn't change a thing about it, and, honestly, people looking for the most intricate similarities are just mudslinging and looking for reasons to start arguments.

Point is: ADTOE might have some throwbacks to I&W? Did the band already specify that it would be like that? Yes. Do we know for certain whether or not they intentionally used structures from I&W songs on a few of the songs? No, we don't. And until we know for certain whether or not they meant it, it's dumb to be accusing them of being out of ideas. Heck, even if they were rewriting the song, it doesn't mean they're out of ideas. The band is full of geniuses, and if there's proof about the similar structures, then I'm sure there's a genuine, unique reason behind it. I can tell you this, however-- the band is not out of ideas, nor did they copy anything from their work. If they wanted to do that, they could rewrite riffs, vocal melodies, whatnot, and call it an album. They didn't do that. Instead, there's a few similarities on like, what, three songs? Any other similiarities you'd try to point out would be grasping at straws, and by that point, it's useless anyways.

DT should not, will not, and can not be embarrassed over this, nor lose their careers. You can gladly state your disappointment, but don't do it in such a way that you call out the entire community, the band, and their efforts on this new album, especially when you know nothing about the reasoning behind it.

[ReaPsTA]

Lock This Thread

[Perpetual Change]

First of all I'm a guy.

I gotta say, I vehemently disagree with your opinion, especially this "consequences for their careers" nonsense. Most people here will disagree with you as well. But, I've gotta say, with this sentence you've officially lost any chance of people taking your side on this at all 

[Super Dude]

Lock This Thread

[Cranky]

Lock This Thread

[FlyingBIZKIT]

This is stupid.

[Nick]

This has run its course for now. We all need to step back, remember how to disagree on the internet, and hopefully we can continue this discussion again in the future.

Ban count - 1

[hefdaddy42]

Nick, you beat me to it.  I was still reading the thread.

[bosk1]

This thread has devolved to the point where I simply can't let it continue.  The sniping back and forth at each other, the mods, Mike Portnoy, and anyone else I might have missed needs to stop, and it needs to stop immediately.


@Thiago:  You came up with an interesting theory.  Cool.  You want to discuss it.  Cool.  Here are the problems with how you went about it:
1.  The tone of your "analysis" and your posts here are condescending.  Whether you intend them to be or not, they are.
2.  Several items in your "analysis" imply the band is somehow being disingenuous.  Again, giving you the benefit of the doubt, maybe that's not how you intended it.  But that is how it is coming across.  Your tone is incredibly accusatory, and that's not cool.
3.  Your timing is horrible.  As others have said, the timing of your post IS a problem, whether you realize it or not.  You heard a leak and you assume other "hard core fans" must have as well?  That's all well and good, but it doesn't fly here.  We do not allow people to even hint at leaked material on this forum, and I can tell you for a fact I have NEVER sought out leaked DT material (or leaked material from ANY band, for that matter).  Normally, I would not even have allowed discussion of the album until Monday when most people have it.  Unfortunately, since the German site made it available for an extended period of time, it didn't make sense to ban discussion.  So that's fine.  But MOST DT fans will not have heard it and definitely will not have bought it yet.  As others have said, the unfortunate effect of your timing is that it makes it seem like you are indeed trying to poison opinion of the album before it is even out.  Maybe that is also not your intent.  But that is how it looks to an objective outsider.

Thiago, this forum is run based on respect for the band and respect for the other forum members.  You either intentionally or unintentionally displayed neither.  If that continues, you will not be welcome here.  You are welcome to discuss your theories, and others are welcome to call you out on the fact that they think you are reaching.  You are not welcome to post things that are likely to be inflammatory or that accuse the band of dishonesty or lack of integrity.  You can do that on someone else's server space.


@Everyone else:  As most have said, if you think there is are similarities, cool.  You can start a thread and discuss that in a civil way.  Let's start over and do it right without all the outside noise.  That means no bashing of MP (and I am not defending his words or actions; but I am not going to allow personal attacks either).  No sniping at one another.  Etc.  This place functions when people discuss things civilly.  Let's keep it that way.