MP about I&W and ADTOE connection

[TJPNET]

Structurally speaking, I listened to the album tonight with the intent of hearing these similarities. I won't deny that the idea was probably planted in my head from all of this discussion, but I do see the connections between LNF and UAGM, the intros to Outcry and Metropolis, and OTBOA and PMU. I feel that there are too many similarities to be a coincidence, but for MP to suggest that Dream Theater is simply trying to "rewrite history" is absurd. I think of it as an homage, or a literal return to their roots. It doesn't detract from the quality of the music at all. In fact I think it's a rather brilliant "nugget."

[MetalJens]

And also, I don't think there are many who thinks this is a negative thing, it's just fun to notice the similarities.

Sorry I think that's naive.  This will be scrutinized to no end IMO.  I guess we will see.  I hope you're right.

I just don't understand why anyone should react negatively if they reused some song structures. I mean, so what? Everyone else does that... pretty much every song on the radio has more or less the same song structure these days

[gm5k]

And also, I don't think there are many who thinks this is a negative thing, it's just fun to notice the similarities.

Sorry I think that's naive.  This will be scrutinized to no end IMO.  I guess we will see.  I hope you're right.

I just don't understand why anyone should react negatively if they reused some song structures. I mean, so what? Everyone else does that... pretty much every song on the radio has more or less the same song structure these days

I pretty much agree with this.  I don't see it as a big deal at all.  Others will rage 

[bosk1]

This is me not caring much about any of this:



Please notice the complete lack of caring in my facial expression.

[Peter Griffin]

cared so little that you had to post in this thread, huh?    sure are a heck of alot of posters who proclaim their lack of interest for such topics. well sir, this is me, caring! 

[Pols Voice]

The endless scrutinizing is fun.  It's when people get too emotional that it's annoying.

ENDLESS SCRU-TI-NIZE!

[farsight]

aaaaah, I miss the days when dream theater invented some really revolutionary song structures like A-B-A-C-B2-A-C-D-ROROROROR-HA-E1-E2-E3-E4-E-E-E-E-E-E 

[Orthogonal]

I don't get why everyone is going ape over this. On any other DT release we would all be going "OMG NUGGETZ!!1!"

If they did try to re-imagine or nod back to I&W, then that is just an awesome thing to do and something that just becomes a fun fact for the hardcore DT fans. The funny thing is if you really look over all the posts here I don't see anyone complaining about it sounding like I&W (Most people thing that's a good thing), it's just people complaining about others pointing out that it sounds like I&W

If they didn't deliberately nod I&W, then we are just trying to find patterns where none exist and it's just all in good fun and another day in the life of a prog fan.

[chrisbDTM]

I don't get why everyone is going ape over this. On any other DT release we would all be going "OMG NUGGETZ!!1!"

if you are refering to us going apeshit, i would say its over the obvious dig at the band in MP's post

[Xanthul]

I was 100% sure this Thiago guy was right, I was listening and it felt exactly the same as I&W but then I remembered that I don't have ADTOE yet and I was actually listening to I&W. Maybe the same happened to him.

[BlobVanDam]

What MP said was not appropriate to say. He should realize by now that passive aggressive digs are not subtle, and do not get past anyone. A lot of stuff MP has done since the split has been over analyzed and blown out of proportion, but this is one of those times when I don't see any justification. I appreciate that MP is an open honest guy, but this crossed the line into pissy. If he really expects that there could ever be a reunion (even a one off line WDADRU), he has to stop burning his bridges. Congratulate DT and move on. It doesn't matter if you believe it, just say it anyway, because it will make things easier over time.

I've had the album for a while now, and I noticed that OTBOA had obvious similarites to PMU, and after a few listens I noticed some clear similarities between LNF and UAGM. Then there are the obvious similarities between BAI and LTL and a couple of other songs. That's about it. For a band that has just released their 11th album, you're going to find similarities between some of their own songs. Not a big deal!
They are mere similarities, just as a lot of the other similarities that people are so quick to attack MP for were. I didn't have a problem with those either (with a couple of extreme exceptions, but they're not worth giving more blame specifically on MP for).

What MP did here was undeniably wrong, no argument from me there. But yet again this thread has turned into little more than attacking MP to the extreme.

[The Silent Cody]

Another MP issue... I don't even want to get into this

[j]

After listening to the album I did not hear one bit of structure similarity in songs. I love me the shit out of some Images And Words and there was no song on ADOTE that even resembled songs off that album at first listen, like some people have suggesting. You wanna say OTBOA mirrors "Pull Me Under", well that has more to do with your unnecessary overanalyzing than what is actually presented in both songs. The music is so different between both albums that there is no point in comparing the two.

This, for the most part.

Petrucci's pre-choruses in OTBOA and PMU don't really sound alike, but they both exist, so I guess that's a similarity.

A couple of very small parts of LNF's guitar solo are reminiscent of UaGM's guitar solo.  The rest of the song has absolutely nothing in common with the rest of UaGM.

Breaking All Illusions is similar to LtL in structure, but so is half of DT's back catalog.  I think this comparison stems from people knowing Myung wrote the lyrics, and both songs being "progressive, melodic" fan favorites.  I love them both, but they don't really remind me of each other at all.

But regardless of whether or not there's actually anything to this stuff, Portnoy's immaturity continues.  Surprise, surprise.

-J

[?]

My opinion is that if you try hard enough (read: overanalyse), you can find some similarities between almost any 2 DT albums. I've only heard OTBOA and the snippets, and like most people, I'd say OTBOA is similar to Pull Me Under and most people have compared Far from Heaven/Breaking All Illusions to Wait for Sleep/Learning to Live. However, I think one could also compare A Rite of Passage to Pull Me Under; both songs were singles from their respective albums and are in the same mid-tempo rhythm. Vacant/Stream of Consciousness could also be considered similar to WFS/LTL (mellow under-3-minute song followed by an 11-minute song and both share a melody).

[ReaPsTA]

However, I think one could also compare A Rite of Passage to Pull Me Under; both songs were singles from their respective albums and are in the same mid-tempo rhythm.

And you named the only meaningful similarity between the songs right there.  OTBOA follows PMU's structure almost exactly.  The added chorus at the end, keyboard solo before guitar solo, guitar leads before choruses, and on and on and on.

Vacant/Stream of Consciousness could also be considered similar to WFS/LTL (mellow under-3-minute song followed by an 11-minute song and both share a melody).

I think this is 100% fair to say though.

[?]

However, I think one could also compare A Rite of Passage to Pull Me Under; both songs were singles from their respective albums and are in the same mid-tempo rhythm.

And you named the only meaningful similarity between the songs right there.  OTBOA follows PMU's structure almost exactly.  The added chorus at the end, keyboard solo before guitar solo, guitar leads before choruses, and on and on and on.

Note:

if you try hard enough (read: overanalyse), you can find some similarities between almost any 2 DT albums.

I said that someone could find AROP and PMU similar, not that I find them very close to each other, apart from the rhythm.

[ReaPsTA]

The rest of the song has absolutely nothing in common with the rest of UaGM.

Not true.  To cite one example of many, the choruses are structured exactly the same.  It's a four part chorus.  Parts 1/3 and 2/4 share similar progressions, and each part is broken up by a very short and tight groove section.  I can't think of any chorus in any DT song except the ones in UAGM and LNF that are done like this.

The Thiago Campos thing has tons of other similarities.

f you try hard enough (read: overanalyse)[/b], you can find some similarities between almost any 2 DT albums.

But what you're implying is that the I&W/ADTOE comparisons are the result of over analysis.  I don't think that's true.  A couple of the LNF/UAGM connections I noticed the first time I heard it.  The FFH/BAI WFS/LTL connection takes less than a connection to see.

[Bertielee]

I read that comparison, and listened to the songs.  And while some of the things he said had merit, some others are very forced.  And frankly, I think MP is being somewhat disingenuous when he says that he noticed it right off the bat.

Possibly, but given what we know of his personality and his situation, it's very possible and even possibly likely that he listened to the album with the intent of finding something wrong with it.

I think it's more likely that he didn't notice anything until reading that guy's article, and then he used that for artillery.

Well, you know, Hef, from what I've seen and read , Thiago seems to be a good guy BUT he shouldn't have published his analysis of the songs, IMo of course :

1- He commented on an album that was not even released.
2- I understand he is a guitarist and a very good one for that, but I am NOT a musician. I am not able to see these similarities and frankly don't want to. It will kind of ruin the experience for me.
3- Well, he should have known that MP would jump on his comments to blow a cheap shot at DT (and MP is very dishonest here as you said, probably he hadn't noticed all that)

B.Lee

PS : and MP should have really learned by now to STFU, by Jive!

[Daso]

I feel that Portnoy intended to say that I&W is their best album, and he played there. They need to go back, listen to the best of what they did when he was around, follow some patterns so that it sounds similar and they will be succesful, and that he noticed they did it. I mean, he noticed according to his thoughts and some invalid proofs.

[orcus116]

I know JP had championed some of the nu-metal stuff but does anyone think Portnoy might be a bit dismissive of the way the band went away from the overtly newer metal path they were going down? As far as heavy stuff this album doesn't really touch a whole lot on being balls to the wall, which seems to be something he was all over and is still evident in his side projects.

[Enc3f4L0]

Some of you guys need to take chill pills, have a beer, smoke pot, get a massage or something (maybe all at once) to calm down.

Drop the pitchforks cuz no one is attacking our (yes, mine too) favorite band!!!

Geez, has this been blown out of proportion!

When I wrote this text I thought most DT fans would find it interesting. I had no intention to slam DT, or judge them in anyway.
I like the new album and will continue to like it regardless of all the structure matches I've noticed.

Where I think most of you are making a BIG mistake and getting worked up about is by confusing "people who agree on the I&W similarities" with "people who are trying to demerit the album and slam DT because of the I&W similarities". I am part of the first group of people, while the 2nd group barely exists (I might've seen 1 or 2 people so far). You are all (those of you with the pitchforks) basically fighting an imaginary enemy.

If you read my text you will notice that I haven't said anything negative about the album at all! Just because I've observed the nearly identical arrangements in those songs doesn't mean I'm trying to "make a point" about anything. It's amazing how many angry "WHAT'S YOUR POINT!!??" messages I got... The point is to INFORM and DISCUSS, and just that! Whatever negative things you've assumed as being "MY POINT" are the work of your brain, filling in the gaps created by itself.

There are no "In between the lines" to be read on that article. I'm a very straight-forward person. If I wanted attach anything negative to the ADToE-I&W association I would've done it flat out, and not "implied" it like a 13 yo girly in love for all of you to dig up. Give me a break!

Where I did say I'd be left with a bitter after-taste, was if DT never came forward to publicly assume this whole "nugget" (or whatever you wanna call it) - mind you this is hypothetical (and IMO unlikely). Even then what I meant was that I'd be a bit disapointed in them with regards to their conduct, more as people than musicians (we're straying away from music territory and getting into ethics here). It wouldn't change my appreciation for "A Dramatic Turn of Events", or any of their music one bit! It's just that I admire them as people and would expect them to assume such a thing. This, along with saying I liked the album, was as subjective as I got on the note.

Which leads me to this next paragraph... You might say, "THERE'S NOTHING TO ASSUME" or anything else that implies that all of this is a coincidence, or that there might be a couple of scattered similarities, or whatever (I've read them enough).

I have more than enough reasons to believe that at least 6 of these songs on ADToE were done based off of 6 I&W charts. Not just 1 or 2 parts, but entirely recreated from those charts, top to bottom. By no coincidence either! If you can't hear it, don't want to hear, get pissed off with those who say they can, that's fine by me. I was getting upset with the negative feedback on this article, but just realized that the variety of people (ages, education, culture, tastes) these DT related forums are comprised of simply won't allow for us to agree unanimously on anything, even on something that's as clear as daylight to me (and a few others). You don't have to take my word for it, I'm not trying to "stuff it down people's throats". Most of you don't know me, nor my qualifications, so it would be naive of me to expect you to.

For those of you who do agree with my theories or are slowly figuring this out, awesome! If you wanna discuss about it I'm up for it. In fact, I might just write "my charts" for the Outcry - Metropolis, Breaking all Illusions - Learning to Live, On the Backs of Angels - Pull me Under comparisons next week. I was hoping not to, so people could do it themselves (and because it is time consuming, and I'm busy finishing preproduction with my band), but this case got so blown out of proportion that these might be interesting to include as exibits.

Regarding Mike Portnoy, give the guy a break!
I knew that out of all people he would be the first to agree with me. Not because he's feeling bitter (which IMO he rightfully is), but because I feel strongly about my conclusions and he was in the band for 25 years and knows their music more than any one of us. Like he said, he immediately noticed the similarities upon listening to the album for the 1st time. I can only imagine his itch to come out in public and say so, but I guess he thought it would backfire, so he contained himself. The moment a fan brought it up (namely myself) he got excited and exposed his opinion to us all. WRONG MOVE! Even if he didn't start "the conspiracy" (as some of you are enjoying labelling it) he'd obviously be crucified for commenting he agrees with it. After all that has happened in the last year, the timing, and being his 1st comment acknowledging he heard the album, it was bound to hit Blabbermouth in a bad way. His choice for words didn't help it also, but like I said, give the guy a break. Regardless if he fucked up (and I think he did in more ways than one) or not, he's been through an emotional rollercoaster ride. I do think he is and has been very childish about the whole "divorce" thing, and I think he needs some sort of PR assistant in the form of a wristwatch or something (cuz he sucks badly at making bad things worse by being impulsive online), but whenever I get a little annoyed by him (posts, tweets, or whatever) I just think about the amazing music he's made and the fact that he is still my favorite drummer and I chill out. I dunno about the rest of you, but I appreciate his work with DT/TA/LTE so much that he's got some fat to burn with me. His immature behaviour, revealed more easily by his fragile emotional state caused by the recent events, pale in comparison to how much he's contributed to my musical life.

I hope this post clears any misunderstandings. Let's all enjoy the album and discuss it without the pitchforks!

- Thiago Campos

[orcus116]

If you read my text you will notice that I haven't said anything negative about the album at all! Just because I've observed the nearly identical arrangements in those songs doesn't mean I'm trying to "make a point" about anything. It's amazing how many angry "WHAT'S YOUR POINT!!??" messages I got... The point is to INFORM and DISCUSS, and just that! Whatever negative things you've assumed as being "MY POINT" are the work of your brain, filling in the gaps created by itself.

Probably because when someone brings up painfully over analyzed similarities between two things they're trying to downgrade or even outright dismiss the validity of the latter element. I mean, what else is the purpose? Especially if you're into that much detail. You're going from simply enjoying and noticing a few small things to breaking it down into a science and turning it into a boring uninteresting discussion devoid of anything the song was trying to do, and if you truly like the song taking the entertainment value out of it by breaking it down. At the end of the day no one gets any satisfaction out of it outside of the "I told you so" tin-foil types, which doesn't do anyone any good.

[chrisbDTM]

Thiago, i think the only thing you did wrong was release the analysis way earlier than the release date. its putting the idea in people's heads before they have even heard the album. i personally dont care about the simalarities, im still excited for the album.

i can only talk for myself in that i was angered by the 'desperate attempts' part of mike portnoy's post

[Enc3f4L0]

Orcus, if you look at it from the perspective I presented, that people are different, you wouldn't think it this way.

I ENJOY breaking down music. Besides being a listener, I am also a guitarist, composer, producer, mixer, and architect.
We learn by breaking down the work of the greats that came before us.

How do you learn how to build a computer? You break it down first. Learn what's a hard-drive, a motherboard, a cpu, RAM, etc. Learn what everything does and where everything goes. Eventually you'll be building your own cool computers, and commenting on the build of others once you've been doing it for a while.

With music (or any art for that matter) it's no different. Except that the craft involves people's emotions. Maybe that's the reason people are getting so... emotional about this whole thing. It's like people are being told there's no Santa Claus when someone comes up and tells them the music they love can be broken down into building blocks, with different forms and roles. Sorry if I busted anyone's bubble in that way. I had no intention to. Being that I love breaking down music I got excited with my discoveries and thought all DT fans (who are famous for being musicians and computer geeks) should know and dissect even more.

[Enc3f4L0]

For those of you who enjoy the musical breakdown, here's an interesting video of Jordan Rudess to add to the pile of clues on the matter:

https://vyou.com/jcrudess

[farsight]

Hi Tiago! So how long and how many times did you listen to the album before you were absolutely sure that the similarities between A Dramatic Turn of Events and Images and Words weren't just a coincidence?

[tri.ad]

Well, I followed this thread a bit and I thing that Portnoy's biggest issue is that he doesn't really know when it's best to keep quiet (and granted, it's really a hard thing to learn when you're as talkative as he is). Judging from interviews, forum posts etc, it's pretty obvious that keeping a diplomatic tone isn't his thing. Of course, it's kind of understandable to jump on something like that with this kind of history. But he does so by completely disregarding his ideas/notions in the last ten years he was in DT (inspiration corner, TSF etc), which doesn't surprise me, but makes me go quite a bit.

That said, it doesn't really matter to me if DT borrowed some structures from songs on I&W. As it has been said several times, bands borrow from themselves all the time. What I like about ADTOE is that the songs are incredibly diverse structurally - it isn't limited to two or three constructions - and that the few references to other bands (influences like Yes or Rush) are mostly subtle and well-placed.

[Metabog]

I bet he's a little jealous that this is the best DT album in years.

I like how now that there are no though guy vocals or silly lyrics to complain and tear apart, we're all nitpicking tiny things like "omg Dream Theater are following their established formula, oh noes".

But I guess he can say whatever he wants, it's not Soviet Russia,  though I was kind of hoping his first ever comment about the album wouldn't be this, not to mention bringing Thiago into this by quoting him. That Blabbermouth article is lol.

[Enc3f4L0]

Hi Tiago! So how long and how many times did you listen to the album before you were absolutely sure that the similarities between A Dramatic Turn of Events and Images and Words weren't just a coincidence?

Maybe 2 or 3 times before I started to A/B. I did spend a whole lot of time listening to "Beneath the Surface" on repeat in in-between (I really liked this ballad).
The thing is, I had learned how to play "On the Backs of Angels" in June/July so I was very aware of how similar it was structure-wise to Pull me Under, so I didn't require many similarities to jump out at me for me to get curious about the whole album and investigate.

On the Backs of Angels/PMU was already pretty evident, and later on Lost Not Forgotten just gave it away.

[tjanuranus]

Re:SANCTIONED : DT - ADTOE Discussion 6 hrs. ago (permalink)

Portnoy

Well done Thiago....great post and spot on!
I *immediately* noticed everything you wrote about upon my first listen...
and found it all incredibly strange... 

If they are indeed intentional "nuggets", then I guess that's a pretty cool idea...
However, if they were desperate attempts of secretly re-writing the past...hmm, maybe not so much...
I guess only they will know the real reason for it....

 
 
u mad, bro?

Username: Todd

Trolling MP on his own forum   

Seriously though, I don't think Mike was bashing ADTOE, just commenting on the other member's analysis. For all we know, MP might dig the new DT (Never'd admit it though.)

What you just posted right there.... Just brought the biggest joy to my heart. I'm laughing in tears over here. That's the greatest thing i've seen in a long time on the net. I really want to shake that persons hand.

[gabeh1018]

I love this album, great work boys!

[Bertielee]

Thiago, I know you're a good guy and that you wrote NOTHING negative. Cheers!

B.Lee

Damn! I lost a few posts in the revamping!

[Moonchild]

MP is extremely childish and the Dave Mustaine of the internets.

@ Thiago: we all know you play covers 1 hour after the song is released (my opinion of that is highly negative).. but making reviews without even being an "official journalist" is wrong.

[Chrissalix]

I have more than enough reasons to believe that at least 6 of these songs on ADToE were done based off of 6 I&W charts. Not just 1 or 2 parts, but entirely recreated from those charts, top to bottom. By no coincidence either! If you can't hear it, don't want to hear, get pissed off with those who say they can, that's fine by me. I was getting upset with the negative feedback on this article, but just realized that the variety of people (ages, education, culture, tastes) these DT related forums are comprised of simply won't allow for us to agree unanimously on anything, even on something that's as clear as daylight to me (and a few others). You don't have to take my word for it, I'm not trying to "stuff it down people's throats". Most of you don't know me, nor my qualifications, so it would be naive of me to expect you to.

First off, I agree with the comparisons in principle. The songs do bear some similarities, especially LNF and UAGM and OTBoA and PMU. In fact, I noticed them too. However, some of your comparisons were VERY far fetched (BMU, BMD and Surrounded? Do me a favour mate...) and to present them as gospel like that was a bit too much. I also don't think the band sat down and said, ok, let's take these songs from 'Images' and write them again. No way. They probably just went back to what they consider their best work (Images...), listened to it again, then what came out came out. It happens to me. if I listen to some mathcore, what I write for a while afterwards will be noticeably more math influenced. To say the band sat down with the arrangements from 1992 is downright presumptious. I also appreciate you coming on here to clear up any confusion. The majority of the people here really dig the album regardless of what influenced it and that will continue to be the case.

However, please, please, please remove the chip from your shoulder about your "qualifications"! It's very condescending and comes across as very high and mighty and is why people have taken issue to what you have said in the way you have said it. While your DT covers are very, very good, it does not make you a divine authority on Dream Theater any more than the next fan. And this comes from a bass player who really enjoys picking apart JMX's basslines. So please tone that down mate, because no one wants to hear it. The rest of us, whatever our qualifications may be, don't go around saying "as an sales exec I can confirm that the band's sales strategy is a rip of this band's sales strategy" or whatever. It's tiresome.

p.s. do some more covers with Will Shaw. The Metropolis one ripped.

[Addy]

Ok, first of all I love the new album. It's their best in 9 years and maybe it'll grow in me to the point where I say that it's better than 6DOIT. Of course I found the similarities between ADTOE and I&W during my first couple of listens (we heard OTBOA earlier and the similarities to PMU were there right away). BUT, even if it's so based on Images and Words, wasn't "I&W 2" what many fans wanted ? Weren't we tired of "experimental" stuff from DT ? Also, I can't see nothing bad about repeating some ideas from the past, especially when it works. And it does.

And MP acts like a child, really. Seems like he is going to take each opportunity to criticize DT, even if he's gonna try to make it diplomatic. He is aware of the fact that they became stronger with him gone, that's for sure. I'm waiting for another one of his lamentations...