MP about I&W and ADTOE connection

[dongringo]

everyone... I just don't get this MP vs DT anymore... I don't think MP is bashing DT or vice versa... If MP won't say a word, people are saying things like "why won't MP speak up", or "MP be brave and say something", or "I'd really like to hear from MP whether it be good or bad" etc... now that MP says something, everyone is bringing all the hate... i'm just disappointed with how people are reacting... I'm not taking sides... Good luck to MP and DT!  And I thank both sides for all the great music they have given us! 

Props to you for being able to ignore the obvious. 

[ReaPsTA]

-The Shaman's "HUWMM" in BITS

I totally can't believe this hasn't come up yet in the main thread.

[KevShmev]

Let us, for one moment, consider whatever Thiago is saying is 100% true. DT did, in fact, follow the blueprints of I&W songs to the absolute T (though I think it's unrealistic to think that someone in the band would sit down and say, "Hey guys let's follow the song structure of UAGM on LNF."). Ultimately, does that make the album a bad one? Are we, hereby, supposed to conclude that DT have run out of ideas (possibly as MP isn't with them now )? Or is it that Thiago's trying to say that DT were trying so hard to make the album memorable that they ended up resorting to repeating old formulae?

What difference does any of these points make to the overall likeability of the album? If anyone is trying to justify their dislike of the album with such points, I don't think they need to. Don't like it, no problem. The music on the album is quite refreshing to my ears and that's enough for me.

It wouldn't matter the least bit because almost all artists have a blueprint when it comes to song structure that they follow a lot of the time.  The fact that DT might be following some of their very unique song structures doesn't make it wrong, just like there is nothing wrong with the countless artists who almost always used the verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge and/or solo-chorus x 3, 4, 5, etc. structure.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Mike Portnoy being silent or just saying "Good luck to the guys with the new music" is all that's needed to put the situation to rest. (At least, for a bit)

[ReaPsTA]

Mike Portnoy being silent or just saying "Good luck to the guys with the new music" is all that's needed to put the situation to rest. (At least, for a bit)

Nobody on this board was talking about MP until he posted again.  If he didn't bring these things up, no one would talk about them.  It's not like before where the subject was inherently interested and people would talk about it anyway.  At this point, the MP/DT feud is inherently boring to most people, and only takes on new life when new details come out, usually because of MP.

[Vajra]

-The Shaman's "HUWMM" in BITS

I totally can't believe this hasn't come up yet in the mean thread.

Wait, what "mean thread" are you referring to?

[dongringo]

Mike Portnoy being silent or just saying "Good luck to the guys with the new music" is all that's needed to put the situation to rest. (At least, for a bit)

But we now know that won't happen. He left, he's losing money, he's bitter, and he's passive/aggressive. Not a good combination for someone like him. Too bad really because he's the one who left the band. The band didn't decide to continue without him. The band just never stopped.

[ReaPsTA]

-The Shaman's "HUWMM" in BITS

I totally can't believe this hasn't come up yet in the mean thread.

Wait, what "mean thread" are you referring to?

I can't type tonight.  I meant to write "main thread."

[raygun47]

Yeah...he's obviously not about to pull back on the commentary.  He's not going to take the high road.  And I see...in the near future...another post about how this is everyone else coming at him this way and that.  As fans...we aren't entitled to say anything...whatever.

But in his defense...when I read some things Jordan and James have said recently, and I know he's read these things as sure as I have, they aren't pulling any punches.  They've made it relatively clear they are more comfortable without him around.  Everyone seems to be happier.  I know if I left, and my wife and daughter said they were happier without me, and everyone feels free and unencumbered it would hurt my feelings.  He's probably hurt.  I'm betting he's a little bummed that people are digging it. I think he likes what he's heard. 

I'm not in any way condoning the way he does his thing.  I wouldn't...but I think I can see why he does it. 

[ReaPsTA]

Yeah...he's obviously not about to pull back on the commentary.  He's not going to take the high road.  And I see...in the near future...another post about how this is everyone else coming at him this way and that.  As fans...we aren't entitled to say anything...whatever.

But in his defense...when I read some things Jordan and James have said recently, and I know he's read these things as sure as I have, they aren't pulling any punches.  They've made it relatively clear they are more comfortable without him around.  Everyone seems to be happier.  I know if I left, and my wife and daughter said they were happier without me, and everyone feels free and unencumbered it would hurt my feelings.  He's probably hurt.  I'm betting he's a little bummed that people are digging it. I think he likes it. 

I'm not in any way condoning the way he does his thing.  I wouldn't, but I think I can see why he does it.

I sorta know what you mean.  I think JLB has all but said "good riddance" when it comes to MP.  But I think JR's been able to talk about MP while still taking the high road and not demeaning what they did together in the band.  If MP reacted to JR's comments with the same level of tact, I think a lot of people would take his side or at least understand where he's coming from..  When MP takes a cheap shot at the band every couple weeks, it makes JLB's feelings toward MP seem more than justified.

[champbassist]

It wouldn't matter the least bit because almost all artists have a blueprint when it comes to song structure that they follow a lot of the time.  The fact that DT might be following some of their very unique song structures doesn't make it wrong, just like there is nothing wrong with the countless artists who almost always used the verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge and/or solo-chorus x 3, 4, 5, etc. structure.

Exactly.

[raygun47]

Well said.  I agree with that, and in fact...I should have said as much.  There's a difference in the approach that makes all the difference. 

This was in regards to ReaPsTA comments...I forgot to quote him.  It makes no sense where it showed up.

[orcus116]

After listening to the album I did not hear one bit of structure similarity in songs. I love me the shit out of some Images And Words and there was no song on ADOTE that even resembled songs off that album at first listen, like some people have suggesting. You wanna say OTBOA mirrors "Pull Me Under", well that has more to do with your unnecessary overanalyzing than what is actually presented in both songs. The music is so different between both albums that there is no point in comparing the two.

[champbassist]

But in his defense...when I read some things Jordan and James have said recently, and I know he's read these things as sure as I have, they aren't pulling any punches. 

Yeah I agree there. One can criticize MP's comments as much as one wants, but that "DT police" comment was kinda below the belt, even if JR was saying it lightly and without malice.

[Setlist Scotty]

I read that comparison, and listened to the songs.  And while some of the things he said had merit, some others are very forced.  And frankly, I think MP is being somewhat disingenuous when he says that he noticed it right off the bat.

Possibly, but given what we know of his personality and his situation, it's very possible and even possibly likely that he listened to the album with the intent of finding something wrong with it.

I think it's more likely that he didn't notice anything until reading that guy's article, and then he used that for artillery.

Sorry hef - you're wrong in this assumption, and I say that as a fact.

[As I Am]

Mike Portnoy writes this at his forum:

"Well done Thiago....great post and spot on!
I *immediately* noticed everything you wrote about upon my first listen...
and found it all incredibly strange...   
 
If they are indeed intentional "nuggets", then I guess that's a pretty cool idea...
However, if they were desperate attempts of secretly re-writing the past...hmm, maybe not so much...
I guess only they will know the real reason for it.... "

link: https://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/tm.aspx?high=&m=2666577&mpage=100#2706658

After being shocked, mad, sad, etc during the past year with all of the "dramatic events", I think this latest comment from MP has done one thing for me....I've lost all respect for the man I once admired and strictly in a "bro" way...loved!

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

After listening to the album I did not hear one bit of structure similarity in songs. I love me the shit out of some Images And Words and there was no song on ADOTE that even resembled songs off that album at first listen, like some people have suggesting. You wanna say OTBOA mirrors "Pull Me Under", well that has more to do with your unnecessary overanalyzing than what is actually presented in both songs. The music is so different between both albums that there is no point in comparing the two.

This was spot on, Orcus.

[reo73]

And for the flip side of this coin...for me the structural similarities stick out like a big huge throbbing sore thumb.  Sorry Orcas you don't hear them, but the FACT remains they are there (as Thiago pointed out in his break-down) and I am actually in MPs camp on this one, it is a strange thing for DT to do.  For me this album is a big let down on this basis because everything that has been reworked on ADTOE pales in comparison to I&W and that's what I hear when I listen to this album.

[InertSolo]

After listening to the album I did not hear one bit of structure similarity in songs. I love me the shit out of some Images And Words and there was no song on ADOTE that even resembled songs off that album at first listen, like some people have suggesting. You wanna say OTBOA mirrors "Pull Me Under", well that has more to do with your unnecessary overanalyzing than what is actually presented in both songs. The music is so different between both albums that there is no point in comparing the two.

They don't sound very much alike at all but the similarities are definitely there. It wasn't meant to be a jab at the album either it was just a passive analysis that Thiago thought people would find interesting. Give it another listen or two and look out for some general themes that were applied to I&W and you'll probably pick something up.

[ronnibran]

After listening to the album I did not hear one bit of structure similarity in songs. I love me the shit out of some Images And Words and there was no song on ADOTE that even resembled songs off that album at first listen, like some people have suggesting. You wanna say OTBOA mirrors "Pull Me Under", well that has more to do with your unnecessary overanalyzing than what is actually presented in both songs. The music is so different between both albums that there is no point in comparing the two.

Exactly how I feel, and how most probably do.

[ronnibran]

I really wish comments like this would stop from Mike. . .  I've been a huge Transatlantic fan and love his work with Neal Morse. I've reached the point where I am not interested in any of his other projects, that I was interested in because of his involvement. . .  It's pretty sad, but true.  He used to be one of my favorite musicians, now he's just a drummer. . .  Yeah, it's harsh. . . Sorry.

[orcus116]

And for the flip side of this coin...for me the structural similarities stick out like a big huge throbbing sore thumb.  Sorry Orcas you don't hear them, but the FACT remains they are there (as Thiago pointed out in his break-down) and I am actually in MPs camp on this one, it is a strange thing for DT to do.  For me this album is a big let down on this basis because everything that has been reworked on ADTOE pales in comparison to I&W and that's what I hear when I listen to this album.

Now I don't claim to be a huge expert but I'm going to challenge your FACTS by stating that "Images And Words" is far and away one of my favorite albums of all time and after listening to ADOTE I heard absolutely zero connection between the two albums. Trust me, I'd fucking know if any of those songs sounded like the songs off of IAW, which I know back to front. Comparing the two albums as any sort of criticism against the new album just sounds like zany conspiracy bullshit to fill in for any lack of real criticisms about the music and for people who can't get over the fact that Portnoy isn't in the band any more.

[ReaPsTA]

Now I don't claim to be a huge expert but I'm going to challenge your FACTS by stating that "Images And Words" is far and away one of my favorite albums of all time and after listening to ADOTE I heard absolutely zero connection between the two albums. Trust me, I'd fucking know if any of those songs sounded like the songs off of IAW, which I know back to front. Comparing the two albums as any sort of criticism against the new album just sounds like zany conspiracy bullshit to fill in for any lack of real criticisms about the music and for people who can't get over the fact that Portnoy isn't in the band any more.

So I take it you didn't read any of that Facebook article.  Ignore the two ridiculous lines that are even admitted by the author to be ridiculous and read the parts where he very clearly and carefully breaks down two of the songs.  I don't think it should be taken as a criticism of ADTOE, but the similarities are there.

[farsight]

After listening to the album I did not hear one bit of structure similarity in songs. I love me the shit out of some Images And Words and there was no song on ADOTE that even resembled songs off that album at first listen, like some people have suggesting. You wanna say OTBOA mirrors "Pull Me Under", well that has more to do with your unnecessary overanalyzing than what is actually presented in both songs. The music is so different between both albums that there is no point in comparing the two.

Well I think strictly structure-wise, there are some similarities, and it just depends upon the listener if those similarities will bother them or not. But I think nobody really gives a sh!t about repeating song structures until three or four people cared about it now and pretended that music theory was not yet invented maybe just to steal a great album's thunder.
I mean as a band member for quite some time, some song structures really work well and in one way or another you're bound to repeat those just because they sound good. what's the use of a song that has completely original progression but sucks balls because it's a muddled and incongruent frankenstein of a song?

[gm5k]

Hope Thiago got what he wanted here...geez nice way to start off the album release 

[orcus116]

Now I don't claim to be a huge expert but I'm going to challenge your FACTS by stating that "Images And Words" is far and away one of my favorite albums of all time and after listening to ADOTE I heard absolutely zero connection between the two albums. Trust me, I'd fucking know if any of those songs sounded like the songs off of IAW, which I know back to front. Comparing the two albums as any sort of criticism against the new album just sounds like zany conspiracy bullshit to fill in for any lack of real criticisms about the music and for people who can't get over the fact that Portnoy isn't in the band any more.

So I take it you didn't read any of that Facebook article.  Ignore the two ridiculous lines that are even admitted by the author to be ridiculous and read the parts where he very clearly and carefully breaks down two of the songs.  I don't think it should be taken as a criticism of ADTOE, but the similarities are there.

Micro analyze any two songs against each other and I'm sure they'll start to look "the same". It's honestly only good for people who really have nothing better to do than make something from nothing.

[MetalJens]

Now I don't claim to be a huge expert but I'm going to challenge your FACTS by stating that "Images And Words" is far and away one of my favorite albums of all time and after listening to ADOTE I heard absolutely zero connection between the two albums. Trust me, I'd fucking know if any of those songs sounded like the songs off of IAW, which I know back to front. Comparing the two albums as any sort of criticism against the new album just sounds like zany conspiracy bullshit to fill in for any lack of real criticisms about the music and for people who can't get over the fact that Portnoy isn't in the band any more.

I think you need to read Campos' facebook post 

And please note that we are strictly talking about song structure here. That has nothing to do with what the music sounds like (I mean, a classical piece and a black metal tune could have the same song structure...).

And also, I don't think there are many who thinks this is a negative thing, it's just fun to notice the similarities.

[johncal]

And for the flip side of this coin...for me the structural similarities stick out like a big huge throbbing sore thumb.  Sorry Orcas you don't hear them, but the FACT remains they are there (as Thiago pointed out in his break-down) and I am actually in MPs camp on this one, it is a strange thing for DT to do.  For me this album is a big let down on this basis because everything that has been reworked on ADTOE pales in comparison to I&W and that's what I hear when I listen to this album.

You know if the guy doesn't see the similarities leave him alone. If the similarities ruin it for you do you need to ruin it for others to feel better our something? Because that's how it sounds unfortunately.

[ReaPsTA]

Micro analyze any two songs against each other and I'm sure they'll start to look "the same".

Wat?

And also, I don't think there are many who thinks this is a negative thing, it's just fun to notice the similarities.

God, yes, thank you.  Other than MP, I don't understand where the negativity's coming from.  You could imply that DT reused the song-structures as a cheap ploy to write successful music, but no one in the thread is doing that.  Lost Not Forgotten is an awesome song.  It's obviously the same structure as UAGM, but it's an awesome song.

[gm5k]

And also, I don't think there are many who thinks this is a negative thing, it's just fun to notice the similarities.

Sorry I think that's naive.  This will be scrutinized to no end IMO.  I guess we will see.  I hope you're right.

[ReaPsTA]

And also, I don't think there are many who thinks this is a negative thing, it's just fun to notice the similarities.

Sorry I think that's naive.  This will be scrutinized to no end IMO.  I guess we will see.  I hope you're right.

The endless scrutinizing is fun.  It's when people get too emotional that it's annoying.

[johncal]

It's not "fun"once it starts ruining it for the fans. People need to keep all the negativity in check. If I were a DT member I'd have to ask myself why deal with this crap trying to make people happy when this is what happens.

[gm5k]

The endless scrutinizing is fun.  It's when people get too emotional that it's annoying.

Well that's definitely going to happen 

[Peter Griffin]

lulz. the MP/thiago troll tag team got what they wanted -- the ADTOE thread on the MP forum was completely derailed. from near-unanimous praise and good spirits to near-unanimous acrimony. if MP were paid to lob grenades into crowds of positive vibes, he'd be a millionaire this year alone. cue: victim card.  

[SnakeEyes]

I'd rather have DT trying to sound like Images & Words again rather than that lame ass, "inspiration corner."  Remember that?  I remember Portnoy doing a video and going through all these CD's from other bands and literally saying, "SO, we modeled our album after this album and this album....."

NO THANKS.