Leaving MM out of the writing - suspect

[dbrooks22]

Remember when JR said that there was no specific reason that DT was not playing any MP-lyric songs on this tour?  That it was just a coincidence?  Then later we found out about MP's legal moves and realized there was perhaps more behind that decision than we had been led to believe.

Well, the more interviews i read, the more suspect i am of the reasons behind Mangini not being a part of the writing process for the album.  I can't put my finger on it, but i don't think the members of DT are being totally transparent about the rationale for leaving MM out of the writing.

I'm going to post this from Mangini's former colleague at Berkeley - the great Dixie Dregs drummer, Rod Morgenstein:

""With almost every student, I end up having a conversation about how record deals work, because the dream of so many of the students who study with me is to graduate Berklee, get in a band, get a record deal, and be famous. I try to explain to them the reality of how record deals work, how the income is generated. Most drummers are not involved in the creative songwriting process, and the bottom line is that, by and large, that is where the most significant amount of money is made."  


I love Mangini and i love DT.  Curious to hear what the veteran minds at DTF think...

[YtseJam]

I love boobs.

[ReaPsTA]

I think this is our first DTF conspiracy theory.

[Adami]

 Then later we found out about MP's legal moves and realized there was more behind that decision than we had been led to believe.

No we didn't, we just heard there were legal issues. Nothing related to the set lists.

I can't put my finger on it

Because there's nothing to put your finger on.

I'm going to post this from Mangini's former colleague at Berkeley - the great Dixie Dregs drummer, Rod Morgenstein:

""With almost every student, I end up having a conversation about how record deals work, because the dream of so many of the students who study with me is to graduate Berklee, get in a band, get a record deal, and be famous. I try to explain to them the reality of how record deals work, how the income is generated. Most drummers are not involved in the creative songwriting process, and the bottom line is that, by and large, that is where the most significant amount of money is made."  


I love Mangini and i love DT.  Curious to hear what the well-informed minds at DTF think...

A very true but completely unrelated quote.

[Elite]

Then later we found out about MP's legal moves and realized there was more behind that decision than we had been led to believe.

What legal moves? Did I miss something?

[ResultsMayVary]

 The two issues are completely unrelated. JP/JR/JMX/JLB wanted to write without a drummer for this album and then introduce MM to the writing process as time went on (which according to interviews with the guys, they're already jamming on new ideas during soundcheck...).

[hefdaddy42]

What Adami said.  There is enough real drama to go around without creating new drama out of thin air.

[Marion Crane]

Any band can play any song live at anytime with no legal problems. Now if they recorded it and released the live track, that's a different story. DT can play whoever's songs they want live.

[3xodus]

A little off topic but I was under the assumption that all band members just split everything evenly. I wonder how they would divide revenue from ADToE considering JP wrote like 90% of the lyrics?

[millahh]

And the band has already talked about MM being in on the writing next time around...

[theseoafs]

This is hilarious.

[FiberglassMoon]

The evidence speaks for itself. Clearly something is amiss, and DT is covering it up. 

[Ezio]

the more suspect i am of the reasons behind Mangini not being a part of the writing process for the album.

How much did you write of the album?

[MetropolisxPt1]

I think this is our first DTF conspiracy theory.

I came up with this MM session drummer theory remember

[MRix85]

One possible explanation in my mind is, they don't know what MM could bring to the writing or how it could change the music if it would make it different to begin with. So they wrote without him to put together an album that sounded right (and like dream theater) to them without having to turn down anything he might bring and to give him more time - not just two or three months - to get used to everything before asking him to contribute to the writing.

Has he even wrote anything before? I don't know.

[EuropaEndlos]

A little off topic but I was under the assumption that all band members just split everything evenly. I wonder how they would divide revenue from ADToE considering JP wrote like 90% of the lyrics?

Actually he wrote approximately 83 to 89% of the lyrics on the new album...  7.5 of 9 songs on the new album...   

[Gadough]

Any band can play any song live at anytime with no legal problems. Now if they recorded it and released the live track, that's a different story. DT can play whoever's songs they want live.

Is this really true? Can someone confirm? I always thought there were SOME rules for every band concerning what can and cannot be played live.

[Adami]

There are rules about cover songs. No real details that I know though. But when it's not a full cover song, then I have no idea what the rules are.

But plenty of bands have gone through bad splits but still play the same songs. Slash still plays GnR songs, all those 80's singers that went solo still play their old bands songs even when their old band is still out their playing those same songs.

[wolfking]

I don't think there's anything to speculate here.  Mangini is new, if I were in John, Jordan's or James' position, I don't know if I would feel comfortable letting the new guy write material straight away, before he has even really had the chance to gel with the band.  The other four are comfortable with each other, and probably just wanted a writing experience on their own without Portnoy and without having to get to know someone at the same time.  You really can't blame them for not involving MM, wether it is intentional or not.

[DreamTension]

I'm pretty sure, in the US at least, that the venues pay some sort of fee/tax that goes to the record labels. It's like having a liquor license. Any where live music is played, this fee is assessed. I believe this money covers any royalties for playing cover songs. This is why you can go into a local bar and see some no names playing Free Bird. The bar is paying for that.

[wolfking]

Here's a quote from the new interview with James a couple of threads down;

Was Mike Mangini already in the band when you started writing?
We went into the studio with a drummer but before that we decided to write the album without. Because it’s a new personality in the band and we didn’t knew how that would occupy our time. We know where each of us stand in the studio and decided to keep it at that and later we will see how Mike adapts to the songwriting and how he will mash with the band. We wanted to stay in our comfort zone. I’ve known Mike Mangini for thirteen years and I know how he is, after this tour we will see what will happen when we get to work on new stuff, we don’t know. We all have immense respect for the guy. He’s one of the true gems of the drummer world.


Pretty much what I thought.  /thread

[theseoafs]

I'm pretty sure, in the US at least, that the venues pay some sort of fee/tax that goes to the record labels. It's like having a liquor license. Any where live music is played, this fee is assessed. I believe this money covers any royalties for playing cover songs. This is why you can go into a local bar and see some no names playing Free Bird. The bar is paying for that.

Actually, US law doesn't require that any money be paid in royalties at live concerts. Only if the concert is recorded and sold for profit can whoever wrote the song claim royalties.

[Marion Crane]

Any band can play any song live at anytime with no legal problems. Now if they recorded it and released the live track, that's a different story. DT can play whoever's songs they want live.

Is this really true? Can someone confirm? I always thought there were SOME rules for every band concerning what can and cannot be played live.

The venue pays annual ASCAP and BMI fees so they can have music in their establishment. This covers bands, DJ's, karaoke, cover bands, etc. DT could play nothing but the songs Portnoy wrote without a problem. Like when they covered Master of Puppets...playing it is fair game. Releasing it is not.

[Madman Shepherd]

I know bands can't be totally forthright with a lot of stuff, but when it comes to why MM was not involved in the writing, I completely take them at their word. 

[dbrooks22]

Here's a quote from the new interview with James a couple of threads down;

Was Mike Mangini already in the band when you started writing?
We went into the studio with a drummer but before that we decided to write the album without. Because it’s a new personality in the band and we didn’t knew how that would occupy our time. We know where each of us stand in the studio and decided to keep it at that and later we will see how Mike adapts to the songwriting and how he will mash with the band. We wanted to stay in our comfort zone. I’ve known Mike Mangini for thirteen years and I know how he is, after this tour we will see what will happen when we get to work on new stuff, we don’t know. We all have immense respect for the guy. He’s one of the true gems of the drummer world.


Pretty much what I thought.  /thread

This quote from JLB was the instigation for my post.  I've read all the interviews and everyone in the band has said the same thing - OK.  It makes a lot of sense from a business perspective, but not a bandmate perspective.  Here's the new member of our family - the new PERMANENT member - but we don't want you in the studio when we write our new album.  

It's kind of like getting married, but then telling your new wife/husband that you don't want them at your family reunion.

The reason for my post is that I am skeptical of the party line.  Even MM's response to it was diplomatic.  I think it could be that they just weren't sure if it would work out and didn't want to get into another mess with the creative rights to the songs.  DT has to be very sensitive to this right now, given the fact that MP has lawyered up.

[hefdaddy42]

Not another marriage analogy.

It isn't like that all.

[Ezio]

It's kind of like getting married, but then telling your new wife/husband that you don't want them at your family reunion.

I think it's more like telling your new wife/husband that you don't want her/him to tell you what to wear...

..yet.

[dbrooks22]

Not another marriage analogy.

It isn't like that all.

I don't love the marriage analogy either.  But it's the only voluntary way to join a family.  Outside of the mafia, that is.

[snapple]

If my wife told me not to go to a family reunion - why - I'd be fucking THRILLED!

[Madman Shepherd]

It's a business and they wanted to phase MM in since it was a big step to have a new member and they didn't know how that would change the writing dynamic. 

Also, MM said himself he was really busy not only learning the new songs but learning a back catalog of songs, finishing up at Berklee, and getting everything else ready. 

BTW, the marriage analogy only works in a polygamist way. 

[ReaPsTA]

BTW, the marriage analogy only works in a polygamist way. 

What exactly are you trying to say about polygamy?

[dbrooks22]

If my wife told me not to go to a family reunion - why - I'd be fucking THRILLED!

Yeah me too... 

Also, MM said himself he was really busy not only learning the new songs but learning a back catalog of songs, finishing up at Berklee, and getting everything else ready. 

This is MM being the charming and diplomatic person that he is.

[ibosmiley]

Here's how I see it.  I'm in the teaching profession.  Before anyone can have their own classroom, they go through a little process known as student teaching.  They have to observe and repeat what another teacher does, get good at that, get comfortable working with a faculty and the students, and then start adding some new ideas into the mentor teacher's methods once they are comfortable with what they are doing.  After all that is perfected, they are now qualified to go out and get a classroom of their own.

Similar idea here... Mangini needs to observe and repeat (learn the back catalog), get good at that (play a bunch of shows with these songs), get comfortable working with others (gel with the band and in front of an audience), and then start adding in his flair where appropriate when he's comfortable.  Once he gets all this down and he's comfortable with the band, he'll get to participate in song writing and all that.  He wasn't kept out... he's being properly eased in.

Another point... Mangini has waited until now to join a band for the most part.  If he really wasn't happy with the situation, he wouldn't have joined.  He would have kept his professorship and his side projects and waited for the right opportunity to come along.  So, if he's obviously happy with whatever the situation is... and the band is happy also...  what's the issue?

[DreamTension]

Remember when JR said that there was no specific reason that DT was not playing any MP-lyric songs on this tour?  That it was just a coincidence?  Then later we found out about MP's legal moves and realized there was perhaps more behind that decision than we had been led to believe.

Well, the more interviews i read, the more suspect i am of the reasons behind Mangini not being a part of the writing process for the album.  I can't put my finger on it, but i don't think the members of DT are being totally transparent about the rationale for leaving MM out of the writing.

I'm going to post this from Mangini's former colleague at Berkeley - the great Dixie Dregs drummer, Rod Morgenstein:

""With almost every student, I end up having a conversation about how record deals work, because the dream of so many of the students who study with me is to graduate Berklee, get in a band, get a record deal, and be famous. I try to explain to them the reality of how record deals work, how the income is generated. Most drummers are not involved in the creative songwriting process, and the bottom line is that, by and large, that is where the most significant amount of money is made."  


I love Mangini and i love DT.  Curious to hear what the veteran minds at DTF think...

I’m no DTF Veteran, but here is my 2 cents:

I believe everything the guys in Dream Theater have been saying makes perfect sense as to why MM was not included in the writing process.  These guys have been playing music together, very intimately I might add, for the last 25 years (about half of that with Rudess).  Mike Portnoy is a very outspoken person, and no doubt he was a major voice during the writing process when he was a member of the band.  I think when MP left, the band was very excited (after the initial grieving period) to enter the studio without that voice.  I think early on they decided that they needed to push the band forward by going back to the melodic roots of the music.  They were inspired by being able to enter the studio and have a quiet, relaxed, focused atmosphere to create the new album.  They were intent on writing the material without a drummer.  I have high anticipation for ADTOE.  Probably too high.  But I’m hoping this next phase of Dream Theater will start off with something fresh, unique and mindblowing.   One more week and we will all find out.

Mike Mangini may never “write” with the guys in the studio.  He doesn’t need too and I think he knows that.  He will influence riffs and ideas on the next album solely with his drumming, not his voice.

To the OP: The thing that I think you are reading into is that the guys in DT won’t come out and say, “We were so excited to make this album without a drummer.”  It might make both MP and MM feel bad.  So rather than focus on the past and their new musical freedom, they talk about all the other valid reasons why MM was not involved in the writing process.

Sorry for the ramble…too much wine!

 

[Gorille85]

Leaving MM out of the writing - suspect