Racism: Evil or just Ignorance?

[Orbert]

I've love it if we could keep the discussion civilized, but I went ahead and started the thread here in P & R, just in case.

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As many of you are aware, I'm a full-blooded Asian, all four grandparents born in mainland China.  I also like to keep my hair long, and yeah, I've got that evil facial hair going on, too.



So I'm going through the lunch line at work, and the girl at the counter says "I've meant to tell you, I really like your hair.  It's awesome."  Cool.  It's always nice to get a compliment, especially from a girl.  Then she goes on to say "Yeah, I had a boyfriend who was really into Kung-Fu movies, and your hair reminds me of that.  I always think of Kung-Fu movies when I see your hair..." and she actually goes on for a while about how great Kung-Fu movies are, and my hair, etc., and do I know Kung-Fu?  Because I could be in Kung-Fu movies.

Really?  Seriously?  Personally I think Kung-Fu movies are pretty fucking stupid, but that's beside the point.

This girl is black; should I have told her about this great movie about slavery I saw, and how much I love movies about slavery, and how I think of slaves whenever I see her?  How well do you think that would've gone over?

So apparently I'm okay with the compliment, but not the stereotype it comes with.  But the more I thought about it, the more I realized that she really was trying to be positive about it, it was a compliment, after all.  I only perceived it as racist because I'm sensitive to it, having grown up with it.  And I guess my feelings about Kung-Fu movies added to it.  If I liked Kung-Fu movies, maybe the whole thing would've been positive.  Sweet, I could be in Kung-Fu movies!

And I realized that she wasn't trying to knock me down with her comments, she just didn't know how I'd take them.  Not evil, just ignorance.  And let's be clear: ignorance it not stupidity.  Ignorance simply means that you don't know any better.  She's not stupid; she's well-spoken and seems quite intelligent.  And isn't that the root of racism?  Racists don't know any better, it's just the way they were raised, etc.  Although IMO you'd had be stupid to think that that's okay, so maybe it is stupidity and not ignorance.  Does that make it evil?

Anyway, I'm not sure what the point here is, but this is what I've been thinking about ever since it happened.

[Adami]

Well in this case I would go as far as to say it's 100% ignorance, and not in the least bit racism. Stereotyping isn't always racist, I figure there has to be at least a hint of malicious intent to racism. Like when I was much younger I referred to asian people as oriental. Was it racist? No, I just wasn't told differently, until of course I was and then I stopped.


But racism itself, is not always just ignorance. Many very very well educated people are racist.

[El Barto]

Well,  stereotypes exist, and often times for good reason.  While I certainly wouldn't assume you're a kung-fu master,  you certainly do look the part.

Honestly,  I find the whole reconciling of stereotypes/racism to be quite a pain in the ass.  Consider if you will:  I think walking down the street with your pants around your knees to be fucking stupid--there's all the Sun Cannon test dummies you'll ever need as far as I'm concerned.  Here in Dallas, at least,  I've never seen a white guy do this, and I pay attention.  I have no trouble with my conscience because there are just as many white folk that I'd like to see turned into solar flairs as any other group.  Still,  it's hard no to notice the racial component of despising an entire group of people who are all black. 

[Var]

This case is certainly ignorance, but honestly, I think that it's more of a fun, cheerful ignorance than the kind of dumb, mean ignorance.

I mean, "you could be in Kung Fu movies!" is a kind of funny, positive stereotype.  If you could be in Kung Fu movies, I'd think that that would be pretty cool.  There's nothing negative about the stereotype, and it's actually one of the few that makes people look better than they actually are instead of worse.  I mean, obviously, it can be seen as negative if they see it as making a fool of yourself, but it's more likely that she was thinking about you karate-chopping a concrete block in half, which would be a pretty neat thing to do.  The average chinese person can't karate-chop a concrete block in half, so, it's making you look better than you actually are, to a degree.

On the other hand, "you could be in slavery movies!" is more of a mean, rude, "evil" stereotype.  People are more than slaves, but saying that they're not is just mean.  The average black person isn't a slave, and saying that they are would mean that you're insulting them and saying that they're lesser than they actually are.


I honestly could imagine getting really annoyed at things like that if they happened over and over, but really, I'm sure that she said it in more of a positive way.  More like "wow, you're chinese?  That's really cool!" instead of "wow, you're black?  You're a stain on society!"

[PowerSlave]

This reminds me of the late-great Reggie White (an american football player in the late 80's and 90's). He made a speech before the wisconsin state legislature while he was playing for the packers. In the speech he noted a bunch of racial stereo types and started a bit of a shit-storm. He was trying to point out the positives of different cultures but, it was horribly painfull to watch. The man simply didn't know any better and he had the best of intentions so, I think many people ended up giving him a pass because of the lack of hate.

If you encounter the girl again in the future maybe consider letting her know that you are offended by her comments but, be diplomatic about it because she wasn't being hatefull towards you.

[Orbert]

Yeah, I know she was trying to give a compliment, with no malicious intent.  I guess after 40+ years of having Kung-Fu being the first thing people think of when they see me, I've gotten pretty tired of it.  Come to think of it, this may also be why I think those movies are so stupid.  I'd dealt with it for years before I'd even see a Bruce Lee movie.  A lot of people think they're great fun, so like I said, it was surely meant in a positive way.

[j]

But racism itself, is not always just ignorance. Many very very well educated people are racist.

Many very well educated people are ignorant, as well.

I think racism in itself boils down to ignorance for the most part, although there are certainly exceptions I think.  It's human nature to make assumptions based on what data we have, however limited, and frankly a large majority of people have little to no experience with races other than their own, beyond just looking at them and hearing various stereotypes parroted by others.  That said, it doesn't make it right.

As for the common stereotypes, I think that some of them are based on a "kernel of truth", while others seem to be completely fabricated myths.  And it also depends on the degree to which they're supposed to reflect some kind of cultural attribute versus just a racial attribute.

-J

[Adami]

Sometimes people just have an immense hatred that no amount of education will get rid of.

[PowerSlave]

Yeah, I know she was trying to give a compliment, with no malicious intent.  I guess after 40+ years of having Kung-Fu being the first thing people think of when they see me, I've gotten pretty tired of it.  Come to think of it, this may also be why I think those movies are so stupid.  I'd dealt with it for years before I'd even see a Bruce Lee movie.  A lot of people think they're great fun, so like I said, it was surely meant in a positive way.

I can definately understand your frustration. I can only imagine that I would be tired of it also if I was in your situation.

A question for you. Do you ever feel offended if a friend or someone that you know or work with makes a light hearted joke about your race? As in them saying something offenses just for a laugh without meaning for it to be damaging to you?

[Silver Tears]

I definitely think racism stems from ignorance, even among intelligent or well educated people. Really smart people can still be completely blind when it comes to certain aspects of life or can just be victims of an upbringing where principles that we would regard as ridiculous and stupid are so ingrained into them it's part of who they are.

In my opinion the girl wasn't being racist at all because there was no malicious intent behind her words and she clearly wasn't thinking negatively about you because of your race. She was stereotyping a bit and maybe lacked tact in thinking that her words might be offensive, but I wouldn't call that racist. Maybe that's just my definitions of words being different though.

[Adami]

When I said that even educated people can be racist.....I meant that those people aren't ignorant of the people they hate. Ignorance isn't always the reason they hate, and educating them about the people they hate won't always bring about peace and understanding.

Yes, lots of racism is based in ignorance, but the two aren't necessarily binding.

[chknptpie]

So would an equivalent for a white person be, someone assuming I like country music because I'm white and a girl? I dunno, I don't really see this as a bad conversation, maybe I'm ignorant as well?

[Silver Tears]

When I said that even educated people can be racist.....I meant that those people aren't ignorant of the people they hate. Ignorance isn't always the reason they hate, and educating them about the people they hate won't always bring about peace and understanding.

Yes, lots of racism is based in ignorance, but the two aren't necessarily binding.

I see what you're saying, but I think ignorance in a more basic sense is always the cause, not just ignorance of culture/other people's feelings etc that can be fixed by educating them about others. The way I see it the people who are educated in these aspects but continue to be hateful and racist despite having an understanding are still ignorant, not in the sense of other people's cultures and things, but in the sense of leading a good and moral life and what will benefit their lives.

I'm kind of calling upon Socrates here with the whole "evil is the result of ignorance" thing. But I'll completely digress and rant on for ages if I carry on with that train of thought so I'll just say in my opinion, racism/bad things/evil stem from ignorance of one form or another.

[Adami]

I don't believe in evil.

But what about the people who know, but just don't care?

[Silver Tears]

The whole argument is that it all comes from ignorance, no matter how much they know yet still do bad things, it's always due to ignorance of some form. Whether it's ignorance of other people's cultures which is easily remedied, or ignorance of the virtues in leading a good life and not harming other people, that's what it all boils down to.

And not to totally derail the thread but what do you mean by you don't believe in evil? I just use the word to describe bad things/acts and I don't really see how you can not believe in that, so I'm guessing you mean something else by it? Hope that didn't sound really antagonistic by the way, I'm just curious as to what you mean 

[Orbert]

If they know, but just don't care if they offend or hurt someone's feelings, to me that makes them an asshole, a bad person in general.  So it kinda falls into the "evil" category.  Not like there's some evil force in the universe making them act that way or anything, but if they're a bad person, they're evil.

A question for you. Do you ever feel offended if a friend or someone that you know or work with makes a light hearted joke about your race? As in them saying something offenses just for a laugh without meaning for it to be damaging to you?

Almost never, because it's understood that it was meant in jest.  Like if we have new clients are that being a bit of a pain, and we're setting up a meeting with them, one of my co-workers might say "I'm pretty busy. Why don't we just have Bob go and scare the shit out of them?"  No problem, we laugh.  I've literally had little kids in the mall look at me and run and hide behind mommy or daddy.  One reason why I've chosen to look this way is so people will leave me the hell alone.  I'm actually not a people person.  The way I look got me teased mercilessly when I was a kid, so if I can use it to keep people away from me, I'm okay with that.

That's one reason why I'm better on message boards than in real life.  Yeah, people have seen my picture now, but it was years before I posted a picture of myself.  I chose the tiger avatar here and on every message board I visit.  I'm Orbert, just another poster.

[Adami]

Well you did sound antagonistic, and you have personally convinced me of evil.



j/k. I just don't believe in evil as some 100% pure bad force or something. I think bad things happen, but not evil things. But yea, wrong topic for this thread.



However from a psychological point of view, there are people out there with anti-social personality disorder. Those people know exactly what morals are and everything else, they just literally lack a sense of conscience or guilt. You could call that ignorance I guess, but then you could say being good is caused by ignorance as well.

[obscure]

I hear you Orbert... Both stereotyping and racism exist.. unfortunately! 
However in your case it sounds a bit more like stupidity or ignorance.... whichever one you prefer...
On such occasions, I always try to apply Hanlon's razor...

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

it helps...

[Silver Tears]

Well you did sound antagonistic, and you have personally convinced me of evil.



j/k. I just don't believe in evil as some 100% pure bad force or something. I think bad things happen, but not evil things. But yea, wrong topic for this thread.



However from a psychological point of view, there are people out there with anti-social personality disorder. Those people know exactly what morals are and everything else, they just literally lack a sense of conscience or guilt. You could call that ignorance I guess, but then you could say being good is caused by ignorance as well.

Ah ok I see what you mean. And probably agree with it actually.

And good point there. I think the name says it all there, it's a disorder. It's still ignorance but it's somewhat excused I guess because the actual capability of the virtues are lacking. Sort of like kids with severe Down's who can't comprehend a world outside themselves; it's ignorance of other people's existence as entities of their own but it's due to chromosomal abnormalities which limit their ability to comprehend such things; the potential for their understanding isn't there. So I'm not really sure where I stand on that, you raise an interesting point!

I'm getting fairly off topic now though, my bad.

[Adami]

The disorder part just means it's not normal, it's out of order this a disorder, it's not a genetic lacking or anything like that.

[Silver Tears]

I know these things are on a spectrum that everyone varies on without having anything wrong with them at all, but to be completely lacking in one of the aspects that are quintessentially human does suggest that there's something wrong, genetic or otherwise, beyond just being out of the ordinary. (I really hope that doesn't sound like I'm saying antisocial people have a disease or something ridiculous like that, I'm meaning real extremes)

But I think I missed out explaining a step in my thoughts; I wasn't basing that on the people just being towards the antisocial end of a spectrum, I was meaning a very extreme case where such things are absent which I think is beyond that spectrum of ordinariness. I was just taking an example of the extreme and didn't explain myself 


Now I'll keep shtum, carry on with racist talk!

[Adami]

I know these things are on a spectrum that everyone varies on without having anything wrong with them at all, but to be completely lacking in one of the aspects that are quintessentially human does suggest that there's something wrong, genetic or otherwise, beyond just being out of the ordinary. (I really hope that doesn't sound like I'm saying antisocial people have a disease or something ridiculous like that, I'm meaning real extremes)

But I think I missed out explaining a step in my thoughts; I wasn't basing that on the people just being towards the antisocial end of a spectrum, I was meaning a very extreme case where such things are absent which I think is beyond that spectrum of ordinariness. I was just taking an example of the extreme and didn't explain myself 


Now I'll keep shtum, carry on with racist talk!

I just read all of that in a Scottish accent, and it was awesome.


But Orbert, I can somewhat identify with you. I don't have 40 years experience, and I don't have such an obvious look as you do, I can easily pass off as a random white person. But I do wear a very obvious Jewish star on me at all times, which has gotten me some really dumb comments from people I didn't know. Like when I moved back to St. Louis, and was at the airport renting a car the guy saw my star and "Oh you must be moving to U-City" which is a heavily Jewish area, sometimes known as Jew city. And I was taking a bit back, I had no plans to move there and felt a bit like "Oh...so you'll be moving into the Jewish area, away from the rest of us right?". But he didn't mean it rudely or anything. And I'm glad you don't let things your friends might say get you down. Personally while I know it's in jest, I can't hang out with any male friend of mine ever without a Jewish remark coming up. And while it doesn't sound insulting to me, sometimes I get the idea that I'm just thought of as "the Jew" as opposed to an actual person. You know? Sorry for ranting.

[Silver Tears]

I'm afraid I don't have a very strong Scottish accent, and I'm certainly no weegie which seems to be the accent everyone thinks of when they think Scotland 

As for your friends seeing you as "The Jew", I can't properly relate and obviously don't know them but I'm sure if they are your friends then they do see you as a person first. In my group of friends at uni one of the guys is Irish and it's such a big part of him that it's always brought up (we even call him Irish most of the time cos we had another friend with the same first name as him and now calling him Irish has just stuck) but we hundred percent see him as a person first and not just as the Irish guy, and he has no problem with it. Weirdly enough I kind of have the reverse happen to me, I always feel my friends completely forget that I'm half Colombian (probably cos I don't speak spanish properly so it's not like I'm totally immersed in the culture and feel Colombian) which is a shame cos although I view myself as Scottish, I still feel the Colombian is an important part of me. They always remember when the topic of drugs or rebels comes up though 

[Scheavo]

Honestly, as for the OP, I don't really get why this needs to be considered racism. As you relate it, the woman in question didn't really comment upon your race, only that your hair reminded her of Kung Fu movie. Ya, you'd have to be Asian for this association to be made, but she's simply making a visual connection with something she likes. People do it all the time, in a variety of ways, and for a variety of reasons. Like you, I have long hair; with that comes the assumption that I must have a vast amount of marijuana, and other drugs, on my possession at all times, as well as being interested in all drugs at all times. While this is technically prejudiced of them, it's also simply how humans work and think.

1.
1.
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races  determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race  is superior and has the right to rule others.
2.
a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.
hatred or intolerance of another race  or other races.

I just honestly don't think what you're describing is racism; it's important to remember that racism is extremely phenotypical in American society, but that it's not that way in all cultures. Taking this the opposite, way, I think it means that associating two things becuase of their appearance is not automatically racism.

[sneakyblueberry]

I agree with Scheavo.  I personally think its unfair to label your workmates comment as 'racist', as racism surely needs to have some sort of malice behind it.  But in no way does that mean that you don't have a right to take offence.

[Horatio]

racism surely needs to have some sort of malice behind it.

Nah. Affirmative action has no malice behind it (overtly, at least; subconsciously there's a lot of guilt and self-loathing involved), for example, and it's a hugely discriminatory and anti-meritocratic artificial construct.

1.
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races  determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race  is superior and has the right to rule others.
2.
a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.
hatred or intolerance of another race  or other races.

I think the root of this overtly malicious kind of racism is also ignorance and self-loathing (not "evil," because universal good and evil doesn't exist). Basically, the most hateful people need to feel superior to others in spite of all their unsavory individual qualities (which they're always aware of on some psychological level), so they end up defining themselves by their "race," and go on to claim that their "race" makes them superior to all individuals of "lower 'races'" (which becomes an incredibly hilarious claim once you think about the vast number of wildly different peoples and geographic locations that comprise each "race," and also once you note that great individuals of whatever race are the exception, not the rule). Nowadays a similar kind of process about people completely defining themselves by their "race" seems to happen on the opposite end of the scale too, in the form of people blaming their own individual weaknesses on the history of their "race" (meanwhile normal well-adjusted people of all minorities are doing perfectly fine).

The above paragraph doesn't apply much to the girl in the OP of course, since she seemed fairly benign, but it's really up to you whether you're offended by what she said or not. It's not like you have to register all slights against your race as slights against you personally (since you're not hugely defined by your race as an individual), but if you were really disturbed by it and she brings the topic up again then let her know tactfully I guess.

[sneakyblueberry]

racism surely needs to have some sort of malice behind it.

Nah. Affirmative action has no malice behind it (overtly, at least; subconsciously there's a lot of guilt and self-loathing involved), for example, and it's a hugely discriminatory and anti-meritocratic artificial construct.

Not if its done properly in the way it was intended to.  The whole purpose of it is to be anti-discriminatory.

[Orbert]

That is its intended effect, to counter discrimination.  But to do it, action is taken which gives artificial preference to persons based on race, attempting to fight fire with fire.  Just as discrimination is wrong, affirmative action is wrong, because it's really doing the same thing.

[sneakyblueberry]

Ah okay, I see.  I read up on it a little and there definitely seems to be an undertone of guilt there, like Horatio said.  My apologies.

[Perpetual Change]

I actually think that in the US we're way too sensitive about racial stereotypes. The PC attitude is probably a back-draft from the very real racial problems we have and have had in the past. For some reason, people think not bringing up the fact that someone is a different race as their own will help end actual problems with different races being treated unfairly. I disagree, but I'll get into that below.

For example, I've spent the last year in Hong Kong where I've met not just Chinese but plenty of other people from all over the world. Whenever I meet new people, they always have a ton of stereotypes about my race, or nationality. It doesn't really bother me, because these people mostly come from places that aren't as big of a "melting pot" as the US and genuinely haven't spent a lot of time with people of different skin color. When I first came here, every kept telling me I didn't have to worry about the price for anything because I'm white and thus, by extension, have a lot of money. Usually I just let things like this slide, but if they do bother me it always helps to just laugh and say, "that's a stereotype!". Once you point that out, it seems to *click* with people that they're not being open minded and they stop.

In your case, Orbert, I'll bet you could have just told the lady at some point "Nah, that's just a stereotype," and not only would she have gotten it immediately, but she'd also be more thoughtful about it in the future.

[Orbert]

That's probably true.  Telling someone that what they've implied is "just a stereotype" could come across as condescending, but really, someone needed to enlighten them sooner or later.

My problem is that I tend not to respond quickly enough.  Upon reflection, what she said was clearly not meant in a negative or racist way, but it just surprised me so much that I couldn't think of anything to say.  I was already on my way out, the next customer was stepping up, so I just moved on.  Usually I say "Have a nice day" or something generic like that, but in this case I think I was literally silent as I walked away.

One time I was in a public restroom, and this guy looked at me, gave me the thumbs up, and said "Hey, great facial hair!"  I smiled and said "Thanks!"  He asked "Are you Chinese?" and I said "Yes".  Then he seemed to realize that he may have actually crossed a line.  It was indeed a strange conversation thus far.  He lowered his voice just a bit and said "Hey, I hope you're not offended. I was just... curious, I guess."  And I said "Hey, it's what I am.  No problem."  At which point we'd both finished what we were there to do, so that conversation was over.

I don't know.  I have intentionally chosen to look the way I do, fully aware of the stereotype, and in a way, because of it.  In that sense, I've actually invited people to comment on it; I just need to learn to react better, and all will be fine.

[MasterShakezula]

I don't know if this completely fits in the topic; it is about racism, though.

At my school, amongst the band kids, I've noticed a disturbing trend.

People (usually males) love to constantly refer to others as (n-word)s, usually as a synonym for idiot/dumbass/person-who-screwed-up/annoying-person.  And this is regardless of race; I've seen blacks use it on blacks, whites on blacks, blacks on whites, and whites on whites (the most common, it seems).  I am rather shocked and a bit disgusted that a word with such a well-documented history being a horrendously racist term for blacks is being used so much by my peers.  I'm betting it isn't limited to my peer group, either, most likely. 

Your thoughts on this observation?

[Scheavo]

I don't know if this completely fits in the topic; it is about racism, though.

At my school, amongst the band kids, I've noticed a disturbing trend.

People (usually males) love to constantly refer to others as (n-word)s, usually as a synonym for idiot/dumbass/person-who-screwed-up/annoying-person.  And this is regardless of race; I've seen blacks use it on blacks, whites on blacks, blacks on whites, and whites on whites (the most common, it seems).  I am rather shocked and a bit disgusted that a word with such a well-documented history being a horrendously racist term for blacks is being used so much by my peers.  I'm betting it isn't limited to my peer group, either, most likely. 

Your thoughts on this observation?

Ya, black comedians and artists have effectively neutered the word, which was explicitly a reason why some of them used it so much. Words are not static meanings, they always change, and it's their intended meaning that matters.

[slycordinator]

That's probably true.  Telling someone that what they've implied is "just a stereotype" could come across as condescending, but really, someone needed to enlighten them sooner or later.

That's why you don't put it that way. Someone asks you if you're a martial arts master, you simply say "No. But just so you know, lots of us Chinese people don't know Kung Fu at all." And maybe add "But I am a medical Qigong master" with a wink?

[Orbert]

Or I could just look her dead in the eyes and say "Yes, and I will kill you if you mention it again."

Heh heh.