Does this make me a jerk?

[Adami]

Adami, can you explain how spelling, saying the name or using it in a hymn is a violation of the commandment? Is it banned in all speech or only allowed under certain circumstances? And, if it's banned in all speech then how is the name taught to each generation?

We are allowed to use certain words in prayer. Saying those words out of prayer is what constitutes "in vein" and thus is obviously breaking that commandment. Why we're not allowed to say the actual words in any circumstance I believe is just reverence. Nevertheless, saying it in a hymn doesn't quite qualify no matter what.

[PowerSlave]

Adami, can you explain how spelling, saying the name or using it in a hymn is a violation of the commandment? Is it banned in all speech or only allowed under certain circumstances? And, if it's banned in all speech then how is the name taught to each generation?

We are allowed to use certain words in prayer. Saying those words out of prayer is what constitutes "in vein" and thus is obviously breaking that commandment. Why we're not allowed to say the actual words in any circumstance I believe is just reverence. Nevertheless, saying it in a hymn doesn't quite qualify no matter what.

Gotcha. That makes sense. Thanks for the explanation.

[Adami]

No problem dude.

[BlackInk]

While I don't agree that Jehovah is gods name (as he is given multiple names in the torah), at least you guys came closer to pronouncing it correctly than all those YAWEH or whatever people.

As God's name in the original texts only are "JHWH" we have chosen to pronounce it like that (Jehovah) even though we don't really know what vowels connected them in the original language.

[Perpetual Change]

BlackInk, did you not see this? Interested in your response:

This convo seems fascinating, but I think for it to be really interesting you and Hef will have to give some examples of where the NWT's done this.

Generally, anything related to the trinity or the deity of Christ is changed slightly to remove the emphasis from those two things. Genesis 1:2 is a typical example. The NIV reads, "Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."

The NWT says, "Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of [the] watery deep; and God’s active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters."

[BlackInk]

I dont really see the difference between the spirit of god and gods active force. It means the same thing its just a different translation.

[William Wallace]

I dont really see the difference between the spirit of god and gods active force. It means the same thing its just a different translation.

Then why translate it differently?

[BlackInk]

The translators prrobably felt it was a better description and a closer translation to the original. But this does not mean we believe in the trinity, we don't.

[El Barto]

Yup, just gotta say that probably is the oddest thing I've seen from Adami.  Carry on.

[William Wallace]

The translators prrobably felt it was a better description and a closer translation to the original. But this does not mean we believe in the trinity, we don't.

I don't think so. You actually have to change the Hebrew in order to render the translation "active force." It's not of matter of getting a more accurate wording, but actually altering the wording.

[Adami]

Yup, just gotta say that probably is the oddest thing I've seen from Adami.  Carry on.

I'm not as one dimensional as you might think.

[Perpetual Change]

Yeah, I can totally see how that was translated different to stamp out the idea of the trilogy, WW.

[William Wallace]

Yeah, I can totally see how that was translated different to stamp out the idea of the trilogy, WW.

If they ever come back to my door, I'll have to ask about this and other examples in NWT.

[PowerSlave]

Either someone forgot to turn their sarcasm detector on or, I have the reading skills of a fucking slug...

Either one is possible I suppose.

[Perpetual Change]

I was not being sarcastic at all. Why you would change "God's spirit" to "God's active force" is beyond me, unless you were part of a religion that was trying to actively promote non-trinitarianism. It makes sense.

[PowerSlave]

So, they went back to the creation story and changed a line. Fine.

Is that it? Is the translation of a single line of text the basis for their views? Did they meddle with the translation of any NT texts also? Because, making an allegation like the one that was made against them and presenting a single line of text that may or may not be related to the allegation is fairly weak. Just my opinion but, there has to be more to it than that.

[William Wallace]

So, they went back to the creation story and changed a line. Fine.

Is that it? Is the translation of a single line of text the basis for their views? Did they meddle with the translation of any NT texts also? Because, making an allegation like the one that was made against them and presenting a single line of text that may or may not be related to the allegation is fairly weak. Just my opinion but, there has to be more to it than that.

There are more. Here's another:

Here's the NWT of John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god."

Here's the NIV - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Again, the trinity is an inconvenience for their theology, so they changed this verse to make it more congenial.

This goes on for many passages in both the Old and New Testaments. But I hope I've made my point.

[PowerSlave]

OK, I'll be honest. I don't believe in the trinity either but that doesn't mean that I'm defending their changing of the translation. The reason that I pressed the issue is that sometimes some of you make statements without providing the basis for your views. It's almost like you expect everyone to be aware of the script/text that you're making reference to or, you expect anyone to be able to pick it up easily. It would help sometimes if some of you guys would do a little hand-holding or adding some direction while making a point. It would only tend to strengthen your arguments in my opinion and would help those of us that aren't as educated learn something along the way.

Sorry if I'm coming off like an irritation to you but, I'm only trying to gain some understanding so I can enjoy the debate.

[hefdaddy42]

Adami, can you explain how spelling, saying the name or using it in a hymn is a violation of the commandment? Is it banned in all speech or only allowed under certain circumstances? And, if it's banned in all speech then how is the name taught to each generation?

We are allowed to use certain words in prayer. Saying those words out of prayer is what constitutes "in vein" and thus is obviously breaking that commandment. Why we're not allowed to say the actual words in any circumstance I believe is just reverence. Nevertheless, saying it in a hymn doesn't quite qualify no matter what.

I have never ever understood the Jewish proscription on saying the Name.  The Bible talks multiple times about "calling on the name of the Lord."  How can you do that if you aren't allowed to say it?  Also, how can using it in a hymn of praise to God be an inappropriate use?

Also, "taking the name in vain" is normally understood to be swearing by the name, AFAIK. 

[BlackInk]

Again, Jehova's Witnesses are not interested in altering the Bible to confirm their believes, they ghonestly try to understand the truth of it and if we found texts in the Bible that we thought spoke of a trinity we would accept that, but we haven't and we have found more texts speaking against that so that is what we believe.

[William Wallace]

Sorry if I'm coming off like an irritation to you but, I'm only trying to gain some understanding so I can enjoy the debate.

No problem. Thanks for asking.

[BlackInk]

Something I just thought about, out of all the members on this forum, am I the only Jehova's Witness? I mean there must be thousands of registered users and all of them are of course not active but among those who are and check this forum, are there anyone else, would be fun to know.

[SeventhSon]

I remember a few months ago a couple of people (I think they were Jehovah's Witnesses) came to my door, and started talking about getting sick. They asked if I knew why people got sick, and said it was because our bodies were imperfect due to sin etc etc etc. I, while hardly as well versed in immunology and the biology of disease, told them that viruses spread and adapt due to evolution and so on. I was cordial, but frank about my worldview. Naturally after they left and I had ruminated on the topic for awhile, I came up with a couple things I could have said, but that's life.

I really enjoy discussing religion, and relish just about any opportunity I get to do so.

[Tick]

There are a lot of Jehovah's Witnesses in my neighborhood, and they frequently go door-to-door preaching the good news. When they first came by my house, I decided to talk with them instead offering the customary door slam. Now, they keep coming back to offer me literature, Bibles and try to convert me. I have no intention of attending a service at their local Kingdom Hall and just ask them difficult questions until they leave my doorstep on their own accord.

Does this make me a jerk?

Hell no!
If someone comes knocking on your door and keeps soliciting your private domain, they are fair game for however you choose to handle them. Within reason of course. Assaulting them would be wrong.
They are part of a warped and distorted cult so I have little tolerance for there drivel. Its nonsense to me and I don't accept religion when it knocks on my door no matter what brand name. I'm not rude to them but I am very firm when I make it known I will not have a conversation about there faith. They usually realize fairly quickly, they should move on.

[BlackInk]

They are part of a warped and distorted cult

And what makes you say that?

[Adami]

They are part of a warped and distorted cult

And what makes you say that?

I'd just assume it's because you guys are similar to christians but different enough that they can vehemently disagree with you. That doesn't make what he says true, but it might be where he's coming from. Still not a polite thing for him to say.

[BlackInk]

They are part of a warped and distorted cult

And what makes you say that?

I'd just assume it's because you guys are similar to christians but different enough that they can vehemently disagree with you. That doesn't make what he says true, but it might be where he's coming from. Still not a polite thing for him to say.

Indeed. Quite agressive actually.

[Adami]

By the way, after learning about what your people did during the holocaust, I have gained a good amount of respect for you. (not you personally, since you weren't alive back then, but you seem cool too)

[BlackInk]

By the way, after learning about what your people did during the holocaust, I have gained a good amount of respect for you. (not you personally, since you weren't alive back then, but you seem cool too)

Thank you, it's is nice to hear that. (both things)

[William Wallace]

By the way, after learning about what your people did during the holocaust, I have gained a good amount of respect for you. (not you personally, since you weren't alive back then, but you seem cool too)

This I can agree with. I remember reading that Himmler told the SS that they should be as dedicated to Nazism as the JWs were to their faith. 

[Tick]

They are part of a warped and distorted cult

And what makes you say that?

I'd just assume it's because you guys are similar to christians but different enough that they can vehemently disagree with you. That doesn't make what he says true, but it might be where he's coming from. Still not a polite thing for him to say.

Well you know me, I'm an asshole.

[Major Thirteenth]

There are a lot of Jehovah's Witnesses in my neighborhood, and they frequently go door-to-door preaching the good news. When they first came by my house, I decided to talk with them instead offering the customary door slam. Now, they keep coming back to offer me literature, Bibles and try to convert me. I have no intention of attending a service at their local Kingdom Hall and just ask them difficult questions until they leave my doorstep on their own accord.

Does this make me a jerk?

Not a jerk, but you are dealing with trained and motivated individuals who are consciously disconnected from reality and have little or no interest in your viewpoints, or any alternative viewpoints to the scripts that they have internalized. Jehovah's Witnesses are basically salesmen, and they will tolerate your dissent only until they are certain you are a "loss". It is a numbers game for them. Sooner or later they will encounter a weak soul who is amenable to the comfort they claim to offer. Such a soul is the equivalent of a "lead" - to be converted and closed, much like a car deal.

I have in fact broken a few of them down, in several cases to tears, but I realized the victory was pyrrhic. While I had damaged their faith, their was no real benefit, and in the end I only added to their misery. I did not enjoy that as much as I expected to. So now I just leave them to their business and politely dismiss them. They are lost souls, but they are largely harmless in a free society.

[BlackInk]

I have in fact broken a few of them down, in several cases to tears, but I realized the victory was pyrrhic. While I had damaged their faith, their was no real benefit, and in the end I only added to their misery. I did not enjoy that as much as I expected to. So now I just leave them to their business and politely dismiss them. They are lost souls, but they are largely harmless in a free society.

The one who created this thread may not be a jerk but you certainly are without a doubt.