anyone bummed that there aren't any "epics" in the new album?

[?]

Some of the recent epics felt forced, and long for the sake of being long.  I'm glad that it appears that they're now letting the song determine its own length, rather than having a specific time in mind.

[Jirpo]

Wow, its wierd but because I've seen Blobs sig so many times the woman in that video just looks so familiar, its a wierd feeling


Anyway, I love the track lengths.

[BlobVanDam]

Funnily enough, the 10+ minute songs from IaW and Awake are easily my least favourites from their respective albums. Although for FII, the 2 over 10 minutes are probably my favourites.

Learning to Live?

Yep. Easily my least favourite. That's not to say it's bad, because I'm only talking relatively here. I just feel the rest of the album is much stronger.

[Kyo]

I like it this way. First of all, I feel they were putting out too many of those "epics" recently. That kind of stuff is suppose to be special and it ceases to be if you put something like it on every other album. Also, if they ever end up writing a 20+ minute track again, I hope they think of a good concept for it first. I'm tired of those monster songs like SDOIT or Octavarium where they just throw together some bits of lyrics (by different writers) and pretend like it all hangs together oh so well. It doesn't. If you want my attention for 20 or even 40 minutes, it better be meaningful. And not just cause you failed to keep your song short (as was the case with SDOIT, originally meant to complete the first and only disc of the album).

[robwebster]

Yeah, quite chuffed there's no epic.

With regards to the occasional semantic tussles, I think "epic" means two different things. Yes, Bohemian Rhapsody or Metropolis pt. 1 or even Knights of Cydonia could be labelled as "epic," but in DT-lingo it's a status thing rather than a massively subjective thing. It's the elite. Over twenty minutes, indexed. Change of Seasons, Six Degrees, Octavarium, In the Presence of Enemies. The Count of Tuscany is often considered one, too, for some reason, even though it fits neither category, but it's certainly close enough to be a sort of pseudo-epic. I get why people give it the benefit of the doubt.

There was a time when The Killing Hand was the band's resident epic, and later Learning to Live, but the goalposts have moved. The epic has to be conspicuous by its length - the various centrepieces of the band's career - and LtL and TKH are now way too inconspicuous to be considered epic by any vaguely objective tiering system. So while I get "epic is an ambiguous word," it become a bit more complex than that. Epic as an adjective is ambiguous and can be applied to loads of DT songs. Epic as a noun isn't and can't, as it's definitely acquired its own meaning as part of the DT lexicon. It's become functional rather than descriptive, and it's been that way for so many years that it seems a bit futile to go against the grain, however much you like Bohemian Rhapsody.

I think we're saturated with 'em now, though. They used to be the extra-special songs - that occasional, exciting rush of bonus ambition that makes you go "Whoa! They are seriously pushing the boundaries this time." When you've had two in as many albums, arguably followed immediately by a third (depending on who you ask), they stop being special. The extra-special should never become standard. Which it has. We should be excited by an epic's presence, not disappointed by its absence. It used to be the former, but now it's the latter - we expect epics, which is alone quite a good reason to stop writing them for a while.

[hefdaddy42]

I think we're saturated with 'em now, though. They used to be the extra-special songs - that occasional, exciting rush of bonus ambition that makes you go "Whoa! They are seriously pushing the boundaries this time." When you've had two in as many albums, arguably followed immediately by a third (depending on who you ask), they stop being special. The extra-special should never become standard. Which it has. We should be excited by an epic's presence, not disappointed by its absence. It used to be the former, but now it's the latter - we expect epics, which is alone quite a good reason to stop writing them for a while.

This exactly.  Up until 2001, there was only ACOS.  It was special.  It still is, but not in the same way.

[Metabog]

Nope. The early albums didn't have any epics, and they were better.

[ddtonfire]

BVD hit the nail on the head.

Nope. The early albums didn't have any epics, and they were better.

I'd say you could call LTL, A Mind Beside Itself, and Scarred "epic."

[Gadough]

I voted "meh" because while I would have loved if the album had an epic, and even though I may be disappointed, it also isn't going to make or break the album for me. I guess I'm indifferent.

[Cable]

No. Debatably, I&W had none, Awake none, SFAM none, FII none, WDADU none. See a theme? Sure, I love the epics. But like the metal and solo trade offs, the horse was getting old when used all the time.

[RuRoRul]

I love their epics (using rob's definition - great post by the way, it should be quoted whenever that discussion comes up from now on) and I can't say I wouldn't be happy to see a 20+ minute song on the tracklist as I'm sure it would be amazing. But like rob said, not every album can have one and not every album should. My two favourite DT albums don't have a 20+ minute centrepiece, and in fact the two main ones that do (Octavarium and Systematic Chaos) don't rank particularly high as albums for me because the quality is pretty much all focused on the epics, leaving something to be desired in a lot of the other songs.

So it is good to see an album without one, both because it makes it a little more likely the album as a whole will be better, and because it means that epics still stay something special, instead of something standard. Also, the more epics they make, the more chance there is that there will be one that isn't so good. I know loads of you will say that already happened, but in my opinion the three 20 minute songs are in the top 10 DT (ACOS number 1), TCOT is one of my very favourites and SDOIT, while I don't think it works as well as a single song, is obviously a great piece and full of great music and individual parts.

[KevShmev]

The early albums didn't have any epics

Yes they did.  I dare anyone to listen to Metropolis and tell me that doesn't sound epic.

Song length means almost nothing in this regard.  I can name off the top of my head several epic tunes under 5 minutes!: Muse's Take a Bow and Devin Townsend's Truth.

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

The early albums didn't have any epics

Yes they did.  I dare anyone to listen to Metropolis and tell me that doesn't sound epic.

Song length means almost nothing in this regard.  I can name off the top of my head several epic tunes under 5 minutes!: Muse's Take a Bow and Devin Townsend's Truth.

Exactly. And as I said, it works the other way. Halleluhwah and Bel Air by Can, 18 and 20 minutes respectively, definitely not epics.

[The Letter M]

The early albums didn't have any epics

Yes they did.  I dare anyone to listen to Metropolis and tell me that doesn't sound epic.

Song length means almost nothing in this regard.  I can name off the top of my head several epic tunes under 5 minutes!: Muse's Take a Bow and Devin Townsend's Truth.

Exactly. And as I said, it works the other way. Halleluhwah and Bel Air by Can, 18 and 20 minutes respectively, definitely not epics.

Indeed, and the original, un-cut, full 40-minute version of "Moonloop" by Porcupine Tree, is hardly epic...sure it's trippy and relaxing and atmospheric, but not epic in the "omg proggorz!" sense.

-Marc.

[Jaffa]

I'm confused by the notion that we should be expecting songs longer than 16 minutes.  Unless I'm very much mistaken, there are only five songs in the entire DT discography which are that long.  Six if we count the AMBI suite as one song. 

At any rate, none of my top favorite DT albums have songs that long, so I have no reason to feel bummed about it here.   

[The Letter M]

I'm confused by the notion that we should be expecting songs longer than 16 minutes.  Unless I'm very much mistaken, there are only five songs in the entire DT discography which are that long.  Six if we count the AMBI suite as one song. 

At any rate, none of my top favorite DT albums have songs that long, so I have no reason to feel bummed about it here.   

"The Count Of Tuscany", "A Nightmare To Remember", "In The Presence Of Enemies", "Octavarium", "Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence", "A Change Of Seasons"...seems like 6 to me, 7 counting "A Mind Beside Itself".

Either way, I think some fans have just grown to expect long songs from DT, but to be honest, I miss songs in the length of 10-15 minutes, and I think some of DT's best songs are in that length-range:
"Learning To Live", "Scarred", "Lines In The Sand", "Trial Of Tears", "Home", "The Glass Prison", "The Great Debate", "In The Name Of God".

-Marc.

[Jamesman42]

Reading the above posts, it seems that there should be a distinction made in the word "epic" when used as a noun and as an adjective. Because I think many people would understand what I mean when I say "Hell's Kitchen is epic, even though it isn't an epic."

[Jaffa]

I'm confused by the notion that we should be expecting songs longer than 16 minutes.  Unless I'm very much mistaken, there are only five songs in the entire DT discography which are that long.  Six if we count the AMBI suite as one song. 

At any rate, none of my top favorite DT albums have songs that long, so I have no reason to feel bummed about it here.   

"The Count Of Tuscany", "A Nightmare To Remember", "In The Presence Of Enemies", "Octavarium", "Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence", "A Change Of Seasons"...seems like 7 to me, 8 counting "A Mind Beside Itself".

I forgot to count the two tracks of ItPoE as one song.  But (unless I've gone totally blind) you still only listed six, not seven. 

Reading the above posts, it seems that there should be a distinction made in the word "epic" when used as a noun and as an adjective. Because I think many people would understand what I mean when I say "Hell's Kitchen is epic, even though it isn't an epic."

Just for the record, I do understand that.  I was just responding to the OP's use of 16 minutes as a distinction for what makes a song an epic.

[Metabog]

The early albums didn't have any epics

Yes they did.  I dare anyone to listen to Metropolis and tell me that doesn't sound epic.

Song length means almost nothing in this regard.  I can name off the top of my head several epic tunes under 5 minutes!: Muse's Take a Bow and Devin Townsend's Truth.

Yes, but by that judgement the new album has (or might have) tons of epics...

The OP meant long songs.

[millahh]

In recent years, MP was defining epic by running time, and even seemed to be using it as a target.  So while I don't agree with defining "epic" in that way, I certainly see why some people do, since one of the composers uses that wording.

[fadetoblackdude7]

No epics? Breaking All Illusions will be epic!

And for the record, I voted no.

[BlobVanDam]

In recent years, MP was defining epic by running time, and even seemed to be using it as a target.  So while I don't agree with defining "epic" in that way, I certainly see why some people do, since one of the composers uses that wording.

Didn't he refer to BCASL as an album full of epics? I'd say that would put at least any song 13+ minutes as an epic by that definition. That pretty much opens the field to any of the songs mentioned.

All the more reason why epic is a meaningless word, and an arbitrary line being drawn if you try to judge simply on song length. Looking at my top 20, song length is not at all a deciding factor. Some of DT's very longest songs rank very highly, but so do many of DT's short songs.

[SnakeEyes]

I actually feel excited about that. More cohesive songs with less unnecessary sections.

This is exactly how I feel.  No, I'm not bummed out at all.  I think that DT got a little carried away with the "epics" over the last few albums.  If they were all amazing, that would have been one thing, but the problem is that they were steadily deteriorating in quality.  Twenty minutes is a long time to sit through a crappy song with a bunch of meandering solos and unisons. 

I'd rather have a few really awesome shorter songs than one half assed "epic."

[The Letter M]

I'm confused by the notion that we should be expecting songs longer than 16 minutes.  Unless I'm very much mistaken, there are only five songs in the entire DT discography which are that long.  Six if we count the AMBI suite as one song. 

At any rate, none of my top favorite DT albums have songs that long, so I have no reason to feel bummed about it here.   

"The Count Of Tuscany", "A Nightmare To Remember", "In The Presence Of Enemies", "Octavarium", "Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence", "A Change Of Seasons"...seems like 7 to me, 8 counting "A Mind Beside Itself".

I forgot to count the two tracks of ItPoE as one song.  But (unless I've gone totally blind) you still only listed six, not seven. 

Oops. I meant 6, 7 counting AMBI.

-Marc.

[Jaffa]

I'm confused by the notion that we should be expecting songs longer than 16 minutes.  Unless I'm very much mistaken, there are only five songs in the entire DT discography which are that long.  Six if we count the AMBI suite as one song. 

At any rate, none of my top favorite DT albums have songs that long, so I have no reason to feel bummed about it here.   

"The Count Of Tuscany", "A Nightmare To Remember", "In The Presence Of Enemies", "Octavarium", "Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence", "A Change Of Seasons"...seems like 7 to me, 8 counting "A Mind Beside Itself".

I forgot to count the two tracks of ItPoE as one song.  But (unless I've gone totally blind) you still only listed six, not seven. 

Oops. I meant 6, 7 counting AMBI.

-Marc.

Between the two of us we got there. 

[GasparXR]

Someone please take Jaffa's post out of context.

[Jaffa]

... I'm not even going to edit it. 

Sorry, M.  Feel free to disassociate yourself.

[GasparXR]

... I'm not even going to edit it. 

Sorry, M.  Feel free to disassociate yourself.

My job is done.

[Jaq]

The length of a song is always less important to me than the quality of it. My problem with BCSL wasn't that it had a ton of plus 13 minute long songs on it, it was that the band seemed a bit tired and uninspired. I'm not judging the new one based on the length of the songs, just on how good they are.

[Kotowboy]

NO because I want another SFAM type album where there's less length and more tracks.

[Dream Team]

My criteria is different. Seeing as how the great majority of songs ever recorded in the rock genre are under 5 minutes, anything over 8 seems epic to me; especially when there are multiple shifts in mood and structure. The Killing Hand, Metropolis, and Learning to Live are great early examples of this and all qualify as "epics" in my book. I suppose the 20+ minute ones could be considered "mega-epics" or "sagas".