A lot on my mind about God/religion

[73109]

I didn't realize that omegas post was directed at me. Ill answer it later when I have a real computer in front of me

[73109]

Just a note before I type the rest. This is my personal opinion based on a question I was asked. I don't want to start a bunch of shit, and I don't want to open a can of worms.

Now, Omega, what you consider "shallow, emotional, and 'pseudo-logical'" arguments given by Dawkins, Hitchens, and Harris (who I have admittidly not read any of, as opposed to the first two,) I consider logical and full of reason. Logic and reason, in my opinion, are 2 things the God theory lacks. There are definitely questions that we can't answer now, but that doesn't mean that we need to turn to an invisible, all knowing, all loving God. We just don't know the answers as of now. I don't see why "I don't know" needs to yield an answer involving a invisible figure. Now, you will have theists and atheists alike saying science can not disprove God, nor can it prove it. However, I believe science has made the probability of God's existance next to next to nothing. Everything needs to have an explanation, and when we don't know and turn to God, it does a disservice to everything science works toward. I don't want to sound hostile, but to me, God makes no sense. Religion as a whole doesn't make sense. If you were to examine the bible, there are hundreds of instances in which most of us would go, "Uh...dude?" God doesn't need to exist for the world to make sense, and a world with God doesn't make sense. I was always on the verge of this idea, but recently, I've changed to be more adamant about it. I took a philosophy class, which got me thinking more in depth about this stuff. I read bits of books and articles (Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Stephen Hawking), I've watched debates between thesist and non theists, and I have come to the conclusion that God does not exist.

Hope that sorts everything out.

[Jamesman42]

One thing I have noticed about easing up on trying to walk with God is that I don't think bad thoughts anymore. Maybe it was repression making me uptight (no accident olol). I feel more sane now. I dunno how to describe it. By bad thoughts, I mean thoughts that if I were to say out loud, would probably make people around me go WTF James?!

[hefdaddy42]

One thing I have noticed about easing up on trying to walk with God is that I don't think bad thoughts anymore. Maybe it was repression making me uptight (no accident olol). I feel more sane now. I dunno how to describe it. By bad thoughts, I mean thoughts that if I were to say out loud, would probably make people around me go WTF James?!

That is certainly possible.  But it is still possible to walk with God without repression.

[Jamesman42]

I know

Still, I feel like I am becoming agnostic or something...or really just confused on what I believe now about God and everything

[hefdaddy42]

It sounds more like confused than agnostic to me.  But confused isn't necessarily a bad thing.

It might help to examine why you ever came to believe in God in the first place.  Think about any "God moments" you may have had.  Then examine why you have distanced yourself from such things recently.  A little self-examination never hurt anyone.

[Jamesman42]

A little self-examination never hurt anyone.

Unless your Edward Scissorhands checking for testicular cancer.


But yeah...you're right. I should do that. I wanna do that.

[Zook]

Maybe you've just been posting at 5/8 too much. You've definitely brought some of that ridonkulous behavior of their's over here.

[MasterShakezula]

What 5/8 things were imported to here aside from the avatar posting?

I don't hang out there, so I wouldn't know. 

[Zook]

What 5/8 things were imported to here aside from the avatar posting?

I don't hang out there, so I wouldn't know.  

Unnecessary double posts and all around weird behavior that I'm not used to from Jamesman.

EDIT: I believe I was out of line. Sorry.

[ClairvoyantCat]

Edit: ok, you edited

[Omega]

Just a note before I type the rest. This is my personal opinion based on a question I was asked. I don't want to start a bunch of shit, and I don't want to open a can of worms.

Now, Omega, what you consider "shallow, emotional, and 'pseudo-logical'" arguments given by Dawkins, Hitchens, and Harris (who I have admittidly not read any of, as opposed to the first two,) I consider logical and full of reason. Logic and reason, in my opinion, are 2 things the God theory lacks. There are definitely questions that we can't answer now, but that doesn't mean that we need to turn to an invisible, all knowing, all loving God. We just don't know the answers as of now. I don't see why "I don't know" needs to yield an answer involving a invisible figure. Now, you will have theists and atheists alike saying science can not disprove God, nor can it prove it. However, I believe science has made the probability of God's existance next to next to nothing. Everything needs to have an explanation, and
when we don't know and turn to God, it does a disservice to everything science works toward. I don't want to sound hostile, but to me, God makes no sense. Religion as a whole doesn't make sense. If you were to examine the bible, there are hundreds of instances in which most of us would go, "Uh...dude?"
God doesn't need to exist for the world to make sense, and a world with God doesn't make sense. I was always on the verge of this idea, but recently, I've changed to be more adamant about it. I took a philosophy class, which got me thinking more in depth about this stuff. I read bits of books and articles (Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Stephen Hawking), I've watched debates between thesist and non theists, and I have come to the conclusion that God does not exist.

Hope that sorts everything out.

Well... I don't mean to pry, (nor do I mean to harrass you with posts) but I'm not entirely convinced you provided any concrete reasons why you don't believe in (a) God. From your post I understood that you believe God's existence is somehow unfeasible or otherwise incompatible with the universe. It would be interesting to hear you elaborate on that as well.

Furthermore, would not the stance of "we / I don't know" lead to an agnostic position on the existence of God? After all, the position of atheism has always traditionally meant to positively and wholly assert that (a) God does not exist. Many famous atheists have, though, quite successfully (yet erroneously) attempted to redefine atheism as a general "lack of belief" in any gods in order to not be committed to any defendable (or indefensible) position.

I also highly reccommend you watch some debate videos by William Lane Craig as he debates many famous atheists or his criticisms on Dawkins' God Delusion and of Hawking's recent publications (actually, Lane Craig practically covers almost any imaginable dilemma proposed against God's existence).

[Pirate]

ITT debates


I've only really read the first post and skimmed over the rest of the thread, but I think an option is to stop thinking about living up to what people see you as ("Good Christian Man") and start thinking about what you really think you should be and why. If you help people for the title then you're really working for yourself. This is a problem I've always had with "that good feeling that comes from helping people". There's always some sort of selfish incentive for being selfless.

Personally, I get that feeling when I know that when people think of me, they think, "That Peter is such a cool guy". I don't necessarily believe in god(s) but I like to be a good guy because being an asshole has put me in awkward positions in the past and generally if you're nice enough to a person they'll be nice back. However, I don't pretend that I'm being selfless. Far from it. Those are my incentives. They're worth it. I think to truly understand your stance in belief you need to understand your incentives (ie to be a true Christian is to do everything out of love for Christ? See, I'm not Christian so I don't understand).

[Ħ]

Cole, if I were to come to disbelief in God, it wouldn't be through Dawkins or the other prominent members of New Atheism.

[antigoon]

I think we're going a bit off track...

Anyway James, I don't have much to add, but it seems that you're happier -- that's really what matters. I hope you find fulfillment in whichever path you choose. I think only good things can come from this process.

[yeshaberto]

At Cole's request, I split this thread into a new thread entitled "a discussion of theism and atheism."
This will allow this thread to stay a little more on track.

[sneakyblueberry]

I think an option is to stop thinking about living up to what people see you as ("Good Christian Man")

This is a great point.  The whole thing trying to be the 'Good Christian Man' is so stupid and its an unattainable goal.  Nobody is perfect, that's what grace is for.  The fact of it is, if God is our maker then he purposely made us all unique and different from one another.  Why then would we continue to box ourselves into this neat package of what is considered a 'Good Christian'?  I believe when it comes down to it, all that matters is that we Love God and we Love people.  I think everything that God wants us to be and do flows out of that, and these things should not take away from the person we were made to be.  

[Quadrochosis]

james, i have no advice to give, but i am going through the same exact thing as you right now. i don't know what i believe anymore. about anything.

[Jamesman42]

james, i have no advice to give, but i am going through the same exact thing as you right now. i don't know what i believe anymore. about anything.

unless im delving in too personally, what have you believed in the past?

[Quadrochosis]

james, i have no advice to give, but i am going through the same exact thing as you right now. i don't know what i believe anymore. about anything.

unless im delving in too personally, what have you believed in the past?

i've been on pretty much every part of the spectrum at this point.

Full blown atheism, full blown born again christianity and seemingly everything in between.

[skydivingninja]

I think Hef and Rumborak's first post were very good pieces of advice (especially that bit where you can't offer advice with sounding like you're trying to convert someone."  No matter where you end up, you'll become a better person in some way, either a more learned Christian or more of a "thinking man" for doubting what you're told.  Or maybe you'll just figure out a good relationship between you and God but not subscribe to some kind of religion.  Or maybe you'll fully identify as agnostic and keep thinking.  I dunno, infinite possibilities and such.  Do some research or some soul-searching, and as Rumborak says, how you get somewhere is the worthier part of any journey. 

Random thought: Maybe it was how uptight your church and the community was.  Its worth looking into other churches that you would fit in with better.  It seems that some of this faith crisis is born out of social pressure.  You seem a lot happier that you've distanced yourself from them. 

In any case, you're a good dude (I don't know what Bosk and Zook are on about.  I haven't noticed anything weird.) and I'm sure no matter what you'll stay a good dude.  I'm not worried about you. 

[Quadrochosis]

more people should be discussing in this thread. i'm really interested in everyone's responses and i'm sure James is too.

[Jamesman42]

Random thought: Maybe it was how uptight your church and the community was.  Its worth looking into other churches that you would fit in with better.  It seems that some of this faith crisis is born out of social pressure.  You seem a lot happier that you've distanced yourself from them. 

In any case, you're a good dude (I don't know what Bosk and Zook are on about.  I haven't noticed anything weird.) and I'm sure no matter what you'll stay a good dude.  I'm not worried about you. 

Maybe it is the church I was with. But I also feel like I don't believe in anything anymore. I really don't know. But I feel happier, more aware now.

[Quadrochosis]

it's the cold boner of reality.

[El JoNNo]

Maybe it is the church I was with. But I also feel like I don't believe in anything anymore. I really don't know. But I feel happier, more aware now.

When I finally came to realize I was an atheist and that I never really believed any of it, no matter how much church I went too. I became truly free, cliche I know but true. I became obsessed with knowledge about all sciences. Suddenly life meant something; no longer did I find life to be an unnecessary first step. I started caring more about everything and speaking my mind instead of just letting things slide. I think I am an all around better person for it.

Now this is my experience (as well as others i know), this may not be the case for you. It seems to be heading in a similar direction. I would suggest thorough research on all sides. I know it is hard to reading a bunch of books worth of material. I would suggest watching debates and really pay attention to both arguments. There are a ton of Hitchen and Craig or panels of religious and atheist just talking. There is also the Atheist Experience in which theists call in and talk with the hosts. Youtube is awesome for this.

[Jamesman42]

See, I still have a hard time rationalizing that this universe exists without a purpose set forth by a knowledgeable being (God). That is something I cannot shake, logically.

[El JoNNo]

Why?

It's entirely possible that this is one of many universes. To assume that the big bang happened out of intelligence and isn't a natural event is illogical to me.

[Adami]

See, I still have a hard time rationalizing that this universe exists without a purpose set forth by a knowledgeable being (God). That is something I cannot shake, logically.

I believe the universe was created with an intended purpose, but it's perfectly fine if there isn't one. I'm completely ok with the idea of life being meaningless on a grand scale.

[El JoNNo]

See, I still have a hard time rationalizing that this universe exists without a purpose set forth by a knowledgeable being (God). That is something I cannot shake, logically.

I believe the universe was created with an intended purpose, but it's perfectly fine if there isn't one. I'm completely ok with the idea of life being meaningless on a grand scale.

I wouldn't say life would be meaningless on a grand scale but merely the universe is indifferent. Meaning comes from intelligence and we are the ones that make that meaning.

[Adami]

See, I still have a hard time rationalizing that this universe exists without a purpose set forth by a knowledgeable being (God). That is something I cannot shake, logically.

I believe the universe was created with an intended purpose, but it's perfectly fine if there isn't one. I'm completely ok with the idea of life being meaningless on a grand scale.

I wouldn't say life would be meaningless on a grand scale but merely the universe is indifferent. Meaning comes from intelligence and we are the ones that make that meaning.

Yes, but by grand scale, I mean outside of humanity or our own perceptions. You know?

[El JoNNo]

See, I still have a hard time rationalizing that this universe exists without a purpose set forth by a knowledgeable being (God). That is something I cannot shake, logically.

I believe the universe was created with an intended purpose, but it's perfectly fine if there isn't one. I'm completely ok with the idea of life being meaningless on a grand scale.

I wouldn't say life would be meaningless on a grand scale but merely the universe is indifferent. Meaning comes from intelligence and we are the ones that make that meaning.

Yes, but by grand scale, I mean outside of humanity or our own perceptions. You know?

Ic.

The interesting thing though... When people are adverse to the thought of life having no meaning, they normally believe in God. Even with God in the picture it still has no meaning other than to bow before that God. I would argue the more proud, honorable and indeed more altruistic meaning would be the meaning that we give ourselves. Albeit if it is one of self/societal betterment. Else it is just following orders and that is not an admirable quality and not one I would want anyone to have.

[Quadrochosis]

See, I still have a hard time rationalizing that this universe exists without a purpose set forth by a knowledgeable being (God). That is something I cannot shake, logically.

i tend to agree with you; however i have a hard time making the step from that to the god of christianity and the jesus event.

i kind of believe that there is some purpose that has been set for us in some way (through god or nature), and that the true meaning of life comes from discovering that purpose.

[El JoNNo]

See, I still have a hard time rationalizing that this universe exists without a purpose set forth by a knowledgeable being (God). That is something I cannot shake, logically.

i tend to agree with you; however i have a hard time making the step from that to the god of christianity and the jesus event.

i kind of believe that there is some purpose that has been set for us in some way (through god or nature), and that the true meaning of life comes from discovering that purpose.

So you semi-believe that there is a god? So you are more-or-less a Deist?

[Quadrochosis]

See, I still have a hard time rationalizing that this universe exists without a purpose set forth by a knowledgeable being (God). That is something I cannot shake, logically.

i tend to agree with you; however i have a hard time making the step from that to the god of christianity and the jesus event.

i kind of believe that there is some purpose that has been set for us in some way (through god or nature), and that the true meaning of life comes from discovering that purpose.

So you semi-believe that there is a god? So you are more-or-less a Deist?

Deist sounds too Western for me. I don't like Western approaches to spirituality, they're too black and white for me. I prefer the Eastern methods and views honestly.

I honestly wouldn't describe myself as anything, I don't really try to fit into a class or group of religious thought.

[El JoNNo]

Deist sounds too Western for me. I don't like Western approaches to spirituality, they're too black and white for me. I prefer the Eastern methods and views honestly.

I honestly wouldn't describe myself as anything, I don't really try to fit into a class or group of religious thought.

I think I see what your saying. You are not sure but you are leaning to some sort of mysticism.