A lot on my mind about God/religion

[El Barto]

Well, this is awkward.

I guess I'm gonna be the oddball here and say that I'm kinda sorry to hear that.  Obviously you've moved closer to my understanding of things, and I can't blame you for that,  but I tend to generally be happy for people who can develop strong beliefs based on faith.  That's a trait I lack, yet see as a generally commendable quality. 

[Jamesman42]

You're sorry? Not sure I follow...

If I ever come back to the faith of Christianity, it would be strong again. I don't see it being a conversion just to being passive at it.

[73109]

Personally, I think it's a great thing. Then again, I'm just a teenager so who cares?

[rumborak]

James, how old are you these days? I was about 15 I think when I became agnostic.

rumborak

[Ħ]

Not to slap you in the face, James, but what are you doing?

[yeshaberto]

james, I am thankful that you have begun to find that some of the man-made rules that people were holding you to were not Gods rules.  I know you have a great heart and hope that you are able to come through this cloud stronger than before. 
I get the impression that many people who abandon god are merely abandoning the false impression given to them by people proposing to represent god.  My hope for all of them would be that His true presence would shine through the facades.
I know the years I spent in the occult ending up being a hatred for the hypocrisy I saw rather than the actual God.

[Adami]

Not to slap you in the face, James, but what are you doing?

Don't worry, he'll be back on your side soon enough.

[rumborak]

Have to be honest, yeah, I have that impression too.

rumborak

[hefdaddy42]

I've come to the conclusion that I am agnostic now. I don't know what to believe anymore. Open to whatever. I guess this was inevitable.

I'm choosing only to tell this forum and not anyone in real life yet. I feel like people will give me disappointed words/feelings. I've seen it happen to one of my very good friends who used to be a very strong Christian, and it became obvious that she wasn't anymore, and people talked and seemed really disappointed in that she lost her faith/belief.

Luckily, I don't hang out with much of them anymore, and the ones I do are understanding people. I never thought I'd come to this conclusion, but it happened.

I don't know, I mean, seeing your posts here in the past, and reading again the OP in this thread, I still don't really understand how you got from faithful to now. 

But at any rate, you're still there, and I'm still here, and I'll still answer whenever you call out "Dad?"  So stay strong, and don't close too many doors along the way.

But I don't think any decisions should be made without examining why you were faithful in the first place, and all of the faith experiences you have had along the way.  By saying you are agnostic now, does that mean that none of those things actually happened, even though they were real to you at the time?  I know that you've led worship in the past.  Didn't you think there was something worth worshiping in the first place?

Just food for thought (hopefully).

[Jamesman42]

Not to slap you in the face, James, but what are you doing?

Not to slap you in the face, James, but what are you doing?

Don't worry, he'll be back on your side soon enough.

Have to be honest, yeah, I have that impression too.

rumborak

Lol at you guys like you think you know me that well that I'm flaky on this. You don't know what I am really going through. I haven't documented every thought of mine. I haven't shared every experience. But good on you all to assume such things.

Not going to post in here again. Thanks.

[rumborak]

I'm not accusing you of flakiness. It's really the same that Hef was commenting on; you were a pretty die-hard worshiper up until recently, but now are agnostic.
Now, if you're saying you've been essentially going through the motions for quite a while, or even were trying to convince yourself by proclaiming your faith to the outside (you wouldn't be the first nor the last to do so), I'll take everything back. It just seems very sudden. But, as you said, you don't share every thought with us (and neither should you), so we might be completely misjudging you. If that is the case I apologize.

rumborak

[Jamesman42]

OK, I'll bite.

For the past few months(from the time I stopped going to church), I've been going through the motions. There was some belief there, but it was well on its way to declining, in retrospect. And I never even thought of if I was maybe trying to convince myself...is it possible to become to ingrained in your beliefs at one point to perpetually convince yourself as time goes on? I ask because I wonder if that happened to me.

Yeah, I have to say you guys were misjudging me. I don't share everything here, even if it seems like I do. I do a lot of driving, and many times I'll shut my music off in the car and just think about these things. Too many thoughts to share here, so I don't. Maybe that's why it seems sudden, but over 6 months time, is it really THAT sudden?

[hefdaddy42]

Given the apparent sincerity of your faith...yes.

I still don't understand how or why you got to this point.  But hey, you have to live your life.  And I love you no matter what. 

[Perpetual Change]

[El JoNNo]

The level sincerity of anything doesn't matter at all, if you come to a realization, that's all it takes. You can be a die hard believer of anything one day than the next BAM. Something hits you out of the blue and that's it. 


James, what are you agnostic of? Are you using the colloquial agnosticism; as in agnostic atheist or agnostic theist?   

[Perpetual Change]

Seriously, though, James. If you ever want to talk about this, I'm in. Though we're kinda moving in opposite directions with this (me constantly coming closer to faith, you drifting further away) I feel like we kinda meet in the middle here.

[yeshaberto]

I have great respect for ya, man.
I keep picturing in my mind a battle scene.  The enemy has us surrounded.  I am in looking out a window from a blown out building and bullets are flying everywhere.  You are in the middle of the street wounded.  Shots keep passing by you so that you can't get up.  I would love to run out and get you but it isn't safe yet.  My hope is that the bullets will stop long enough for you to get up and come in.  The enemy keeps taking us out one by one and I hate to lose another comrade to them.

[Jamesman42]

Given the apparent sincerity of your faith...yes.

I still don't understand how or why you got to this point.  But hey, you have to live your life.  And I love you no matter what. 

It was sincere for a long time. Don't doubt that. But like el jonno said, it can be quicker than you may think. I guess that is me. Also, thank you for extending your hand, dad.

el jonno, i guess i am just agnostic in that i'm not sure what to believe, though i don't believe in god anymore.

thank you yeshua and PC, glad to have you guys there.

[rumborak]

I have great respect for ya, man.
I keep picturing in my mind a battle scene.  The enemy has us surrounded.  I am in looking out a window from a blown out building and bullets are flying everywhere.  You are in the middle of the street wounded.  Shots keep passing by you so that you can't get up.  I would love to run out and get you but it isn't safe yet.  My hope is that the bullets will stop long enough for you to get up and come in.  The enemy keeps taking us out one by one and I hate to lose another comrade to them.

It's a bit of a shame if you frame it that way. I think a lot of questionable world events result from this feeling of religious groups being besieged, where it's really not necessary. Being agnostic isn't the plague.

rumborak

[yeshaberto]

I agree that people can get paranoid and "overly-religious"
but I also am reminded of the warning that we do not wrestle against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers, spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.  you may not believe this spiritual battle is going on, but I do.
and I never said agnosticism is the plague 

[Jamesman42]

I understand what yeshua means, I used to think that way actually. I'm cool with it

[73109]

It just seems that the religious people here are almost trying to make James feel guilty. I understand that those of us who are nontheists might be encouraging him on his current path, but it just seems a bit odd that things like these:

I have great respect for ya, man.
I keep picturing in my mind a battle scene.  The enemy has us surrounded.  I am in looking out a window from a blown out building and bullets are flying everywhere.  You are in the middle of the street wounded.  Shots keep passing by you so that you can't get up.  I would love to run out and get you but it isn't safe yet.  My hope is that the bullets will stop long enough for you to get up and come in.  The enemy keeps taking us out one by one and I hate to lose another comrade to them.

Not to slap you in the face, James, but what are you doing?

are being said. It just seems like a slap in the face to what James has been working toward. Don't get me wrong, I'm incredibly happy that one more person has seem to shake off religion from his life, but if James were an agnostic and decided to be a born-again Christian, I wouldn't be all like, "Man, you're joining the enemy. Get back on the side of science, logic, and reason!" I'd say, "Whatever works bro."

[skydivingninja]

It just seems that the religious people here are almost trying to make James feel guilty. I understand that those of us who are nontheists might be encouraging him on his current path, but it just seems a bit odd that things like these:

I have great respect for ya, man.
I keep picturing in my mind a battle scene.  The enemy has us surrounded.  I am in looking out a window from a blown out building and bullets are flying everywhere.  You are in the middle of the street wounded.  Shots keep passing by you so that you can't get up.  I would love to run out and get you but it isn't safe yet.  My hope is that the bullets will stop long enough for you to get up and come in.  The enemy keeps taking us out one by one and I hate to lose another comrade to them.

Not to slap you in the face, James, but what are you doing?

are being said. It just seems like a slap in the face to what James has been working toward. Don't get me wrong, I'm incredibly happy that one more person has seem to shake off religion from his life, but if James were an agnostic and decided to be a born-again Christian, I wouldn't be all like, "Man, you're joining the enemy. Get back on the side of science, logic, and reason!" I'd say, "Whatever works bro."

And i'd just leave it at the bit I bolded.  Right now the thread just looks like a passive-aggressive tug-of-war between theists and agnostics with James as the rope. 

But anyways, James, just do whatever you think will make you the happiest, healthiest person you can be, whatever that is. 

[rumborak]

but I also am reminded of the warning that we do not wrestle against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers, spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.  you may not believe this spiritual battle is going on, but I do.

Well, from my side those kinds of prophetic statements ring the alarm bell of manipulation. I mean, what they do is to cause believers to consider any outside ("heretical") thought as an assault on their faith. It serves a purpose of course; it keeps integrity and homogeneity in the group. But every time I hear those statements I feel us agnostics take the higher ground; we don't have to put our "members" into a mindset of battling outsiders who are attacking us. We let the message speak for itself.

rumborak

[El JoNNo]

And i'd just leave it at the bit I bolded.  Right now the thread just looks like a passive-aggressive tug-of-war between theists and agnostics with James as the rope. 

It's not really, James made the thread for our input. Otherwise why make a thread at all? 

but I also am reminded of the warning that we do not wrestle against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers, spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.  you may not believe this spiritual battle is going on, but I do.

Well, from my side those kinds of prophetic statements ring the alarm bell of manipulation. I mean, what they do is to cause believers to consider any outside ("heretical") thought as an assault on their faith. It serves a purpose of course; it keeps integrity and homogeneity in the group. But every time I hear those statements I feel us agnostics take the higher ground; we don't have to put our "members" into a mindset of battling outsiders who are attacking us. We let the message speak for itself.

rumborak

That is the nice thing about not being part of a religion, you are free to do whatever without looking at everything through the lens of religion. When agnostics/atheists do get together it is usually to here speakers talk about the struggles of being in a religion or it's about science and what we know in reality. Other than that there are no restrictions on your life at all due to a religion.

[yeshaberto]

no chains on my end...I am completely free to do what I want.  I just choose to follow the creator.

if someone was merely talking about not liking DT or something, I would quickly say "whatever makes you happy."  this discussion has eternal consequences.

as I stated earlier, I respect James and will be his friend no matter what.  however, because I believe we are in a battle for our lives, I can't just post "whatever makes you happy dude"

[William Wallace]

I agree that people can get paranoid and "overly-religious"
but I also am reminded of the warning that we do not wrestle against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers, spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.  you may not believe this spiritual battle is going on, but I do.

No disrespect intended, and I don't suggest that you fit this mold, but many Christians, including those in my church, use this as a trump card for any difficult situation. Crisis of faith? It's the devil. Got a cold? The devil. Rained on your barbecue? Yep, it's the devil. I don't think it's theologically sound and gives skeptics ammunition.

Life just sort of sucks sometimes and people are entirely to blame for that fact.

Well, from my side those kinds of prophetic statements ring the alarm bell of manipulation. I mean, what they do is to cause believers to consider any outside ("heretical") thought as an assault on their faith. It serves a purpose of course; it keeps integrity and homogeneity in the group. But every time I hear those statements I feel us agnostics take the higher ground; we don't have to put our "members" into a mindset of battling outsiders who are attacking us. We let the message speak for itself.

rumborak

It's unfortunate, pisses me off as much it does agnostics and atheists.  I wish believers would let their ideas speak for themselves.

[yeshaberto]

I agree that people can get paranoid and "overly-religious"
but I also am reminded of the warning that we do not wrestle against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers, spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.  you may not believe this spiritual battle is going on, but I do.

No disrespect intended, and I don't suggest that you fit this mold, but many Christians, including those in my church, use this as a trump card for any difficult situation. Crisis of faith? It's the devil. Got a cold? The devil. Rained on your barbecue? Yep, it's the devil. I don't think it's theologically sound and gives skeptics ammunition.

Life just sort of sucks sometimes and people are entirely to blame for that fact.

that is what I was actually referring to in being paranoid and "overly religious."  I often think of Peter who warned to "be sober, be watchful for your adversary the Devil prowls about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour." (I Pet 5:8).  Those first two words represent the two opposite pole reactions to the spiritual battle.  "be sober" is the opposite of being paranoid (which you well described examples of), but the opposite pole is not being watchful and aware that there is a spiritual battle.  hard balance to find, indeed, but scripture is pretty clear that there is a spiritual battle.

[William Wallace]

I agree that people can get paranoid and "overly-religious"
but I also am reminded of the warning that we do not wrestle against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers, spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.  you may not believe this spiritual battle is going on, but I do.

No disrespect intended, and I don't suggest that you fit this mold, but many Christians, including those in my church, use this as a trump card for any difficult situation. Crisis of faith? It's the devil. Got a cold? The devil. Rained on your barbecue? Yep, it's the devil. I don't think it's theologically sound and gives skeptics ammunition.

Life just sort of sucks sometimes and people are entirely to blame for that fact.

 but scripture is pretty clear that there is a spiritual battle.

Not if you're a preterist.

[Jamesman42]

In a weird twist of fate, my sister apparently got baptized today. Before that she was a nonbeliever.

[Adami]

In a weird twist of fate, my sister apparently got baptized today. Before that she was a nonbeliever.

Is your family religious? Weren't you guys baptized as children?

[Jamesman42]

My brother and I were baptized when I was 13 and he was 11. And it seemed like everyone else was very superficial about it except me (I don't know, that is what it seemed like).

[Adami]

Interesting. Isn't it the norm though to be baptized as kids?

[GuineaPig]

Depends.  Many Protestants oppose the notion of child baptism.

[Jamesman42]

In Christianity, it's whenever you feel ready for it (it is a conscious decision).

In Catholicism, I believe the ritual is you get baptized as a baby (which you can't consent to, and doesn't make any sense).