A lot on my mind about God/religion

[Jamesman42]

Over the past few months, I've stepped away from the attempt to be a good Christian. I feel like it has been a somewhat fruitless attempt to live life. A lot of time, I felt like such a hypocrite when people would say "James is a good Christian man" or "He is a man of God." Uh, I dunno, it was weird hearing those things because I know I am not perfect (and I'm sure those people know that too, but still).

So, in order to let things level out and not be such a burden in my mind and life, I let go of a lot of connections and hanging out with people within the Christian community. Not completely cut off, but mostly text messages and facebook chatter. A lot of them, quite frankly, are annoying on some level. Maybe it's just my personality and how, in real life, I tend to have a few close friends and a crapload of acquaintances. I allowed myself to be able to drink again without this sense of guilt within. Same with swearing, fapping, and other things in general. Pretty much stopped reading my Bible and praying.

Also, I'm not sure where I stand as far as declaring a religion is concerned. I believe in God still, and that Jesus Christ was the Son of God. I dunno, I cannot shake that if I wanted to. But everything else, and I mean everything, is out of my mind. I just don't wanna think about it. I feel burned out on it. I feel like I don't need it. And currently I am enjoying life a lot.

Still, having said that, I have this sense of agnosticism propping up, questioning things. But maybe it's not agnosticism and I am being retarded calling it that. But I am starting to wonder if God really exists. Flirting with the idea I suppose.

Anywho, I wanted to post this here because there are some open-minded people (Christian and non-Christian alike) that I feel very keen to talking to and generally feel welcome to share things with. I guess anonymity helps, but the community on the whole is great for support/advice/general "being there for each other"-ness.

(There is more I could write but I don't feel like it)

[William Wallace]

Still, having said that, I have this sense of agnosticism propping up, questioning things. But maybe it's not agnosticism and I am being retarded calling it that. But I am starting to wonder if God really exists. Flirting with the idea I suppose.

It's annoying that many churches disparage doubting instead of dealing with it, because people don't get answers to their questions and eventually leave Christianity.

There's nothing wrong with doubt. If you're doubting it means you're brain works as intended. I went through a similar period a few years ago and it motivated me to hit the books, learn as much as I could. I suggest you do the same. It may change your mind or it might confirm your beliefs, either way it'll be rewarding.

Bring up specific things that are on your mind, and I'll chime in if I have anything useful to say. I can also recommend a number of books from differing points of view.

[73109]

Well, I know I'm not the first person you wanted to respond but, HERE I AM!!!

Anyways, first, the joke post:

Welcome Jamesman to the dark side. The weather is fine.

Now, for real:

Almost every thinking man goes through what you are going through now. It is common amongst smart, educated, and cool fellas to question religion at some point or another. Some find that their quest leads them deeper into their faith, and other find the opposite. All I can say is thinking about things/life in general helped for me. Granted, you and I are on completely opposite ends of the spectrum. Just recently, I've made the change from agnosticism/wishy washy to full blown atheism (let's call it that for practical purposes), and it feels good to think the way I am now. I know odds are you don't want to follow that path, but what I can say is...continue following the path you are on. You will make the decision that you want to make, and you will most likely feel all the better for it. No matter which path you take. Thinking is a good thing, and whether your though process ends in atheism/agnosticism or theism, that's the decision that is right for you.

Wow...what a shitty, disjointed, crappy post...

[lordxizor]

I competely understand where you're at. It can be hard trying to be a "good Christian" sometimes because it feels like you need to be thinking/acting in a Godly way all the time even when it can sometimes feel false. It's good to take a step away from that for a while to regroup. It's perfectly fine to be enjoying your life. God gave us lives to live for a reason!

I think for me, rather than doubting God existence, I doubt whether it really matters sometimes. I don't believe in the fire and brimstone version of God, but the love and forgiveness version. It's easy to fall into the trap of feeling like it doesn't matter how I live or how much time I spend thinking about or praying to God because it'll all be forgiven in the end.

Anyway... I don't really have a lot of advice to give. Just hang in there and don't sweat it too much. My faith goes through phases where I'm less sure and less active than others. Perhaps this is just one of those phases for you. Take a break from your usual groups and perhaps try and seek out a different group of Christians or a new church if you truly feel that Christianity is right.

[bosk1]

Over the past few months, I've stepped away from the attempt to be a good Christian.

Ya' think?

ts;rbdnas ("too long; read but did not appreciate sarcasm"):  What WW said.



EDIT:  I also like what Psalm 73 says on the subject.  To paraphrase, the author (or the hypothetical narrator) is basically saying, "I felt like giving up trying to live a Godly life.  When I saw those who weren't and were having a blast living their lives, I saw no benefit in trying to do otherwise, so I started to follow after them.  EVERYTHING seemed to point that way.  Then I realized I was a doofus and turned back."

[ClairvoyantCat]

I went through a similar phase many moons ago.  I came out of it deciding that I didn't believe in anything, (I guess agnosticism would be the appropriate term) but it definitely seems like a very natural thing to me.  Also, if you feel like being an active part of the religious community is weighing you down (as I think you meant) it is definitely better for you to step back from it as you did, at least temporarily.  Anyway, regardless of where you end up with this, it is a good thing, I think. 

[Metropolis Pt. II]

Over the past few months, I've stepped away from the attempt to be a good Christian.

Ya' think?

ts;rbdnas ("too long; read but did not appreciate sarcasm"):  What WW said.



EDIT:  I also like what Psalm 73 says on the subject.  To paraphrase, the author (or the hypothetical narrator) is basically saying, "I felt like giving up trying to live a Godly life.  When I saw those who weren't and were having a blast living their lives, I saw no benefit in trying to do otherwise, so I started to follow after them.  EVERYTHING seemed to point that way.  Then I realized I was a doofus and turned back."

That Psalm also came to my mind.

[William Wallace]

Over the past few months, I've stepped away from the attempt to be a good Christian.

Ya' think?

ts;rbdnas ("too long; read but did not appreciate sarcasm"):  What WW said.



EDIT:  I also like what Psalm 73 says on the subject.  To paraphrase, the author (or the hypothetical narrator) is basically saying, "I felt like giving up trying to live a Godly life.  When I saw those who weren't and were having a blast living their lives, I saw no benefit in trying to do otherwise, so I started to follow after them.  EVERYTHING seemed to point that way.  Then I realized I was a doofus and turned back."

Your knowledge of the Hebrew scriptures astounds.

[Jamesman42]

@WW: You're right. I have very few friends who I think really would understand the doubting thing. They seem to get really wrapped up in things and miss the point. I'll post specifics of what I am thinking as time goes on I suppose.

@numbers: Funny you mention the "thinking man" thing...people often tell me also that I am a thinking man (and I guess it's true), and I question things a lot anyway. But this is a more "global" thinking I am doing now and it is something else...has me questioning things.

@lordxizor: Same...I believe God exists still, but I am wondering "Does it matter?" as well as "What does that mean, practically?"

@bosk: Saying  "Ya think?" really exemplifies the kind of responses I would expect from my less understanding friends. I know I have been a bit of a wild child lately,  but this is a serious topic to me and I feel a bit thrown for a loop/disrespected by it (for lack of a better term). Still, that Psalm is good and I'll keep it in mind. Thanks.

@CC: Part of all this is, yeah, being an active part (or even being assumed that I am by others) weighed me down. To speak to that point and something lordx said, I stepped away months ago. It's more that this mindset has developed over the past few months.

[73109]

Global thinking is great, dude. The more you think, the more you understand about the world and everything around you.

I don't want to offend anyone, but I'm going to say what's on my mind.

To me, one of my main begrudgums with religion and religious folk is that it advocated complacency and not thinking. It is ok to go, "You know? I have no clue, but whatever. God is the answer." And that pisses me off.

Another example is when you posted your status on FB saying the same thing you said now, but more concise, and all you got was a bunch of people going "It's ok. I'll pray for you." That would piss me off to no end.

[Jamesman42]

Global thinking is great, dude. The more you think, the more you understand about the world and everything around you.

I don't want to offend anyone, but I'm going to say what's on my mind.

To me, one of my main begrudgums with religion and religious folk is that it advocated complacency and not thinking. It is ok to go, "You know? I have no clue, but whatever. God is the answer." And that pisses me off.

Another example is when you posted your status on FB saying the same thing you said now, but more concise, and all you got was a bunch of people going "It's ok. I'll pray for you." That would piss me off to no end.

I wasn't necessarily pissed off by those comments, but what am I gonna say to them? "Oh thank the heavens!" I had a few people message me thinking I needed to read these long-winded rants about Jesus keeping me no matter what. A few also reached and offered their time to talk which was great. One of them actually pretty much went through what I am going through now and isn't a Christian (and she used to do the speaking in tongues thing and everything).

[73109]

That's what I'm taking about. How are you supposed to respond to people when all they do is tell you to stick by Jesus. It's nice that you have friends though that are willing to talk with you from a, hopefully, non biased point of view.

One more thing:

Christianity has wafers...Atheism has cookies. Just something to think about.

[Jamesman42]

I like both.

[Ben_Jamin]

I used to think that at a young age, the "why am I here?" "Why is life this life?" thinking about "Am I really alive?" It got me to understand things about the world. Theirs so much we can grasp, but also too much as we can't understand it all, which may be a reason why we die.

questioning god is ok, since your not really sure what people have fed you is really what is right. But its down to how much you feel is right? what you feel is wrong. If you keep those values to heart, and not be a hypocrite is good.

The bible is about life, life's lessons, and a guide to be a better person yourself. Thats what I got from it. Hell, Jesus was jewish, and rebeled against the church. Also, his own people decided his fate, and thought he was a looney nut job. But he knew in his heart what was right. Of course, people tend to emphasize the actuality. He was a simple man.

Now a good question is. Are we really intelligent beings?

[El Barto]

Sounds to me like it's not your Christian faith that's troubling you, but trying to live up to what everybody else seems to think is the nature of a good Christian.  With that in mind,  Braveheart is right on the money.  From my point of view, there's nobody that can tell you how to be a good Christian but yourself,  and that's something you should always be questioning.  

[bosk1]

@bosk: Saying  "Ya think?" really exemplifies the kind of responses I would expect from my less understanding friends. I know I have been a bit of a wild child lately,  but this is a serious topic to me and I feel a bit thrown for a loop/disrespected by it (for lack of a better term). Still, that Psalm is good and I'll keep it in mind. Thanks.

Well, I apologize, but in my defense (and I realize an apology followed by the word "but" almost automatically loses at least 50% of its value instantaneously, but hear me out on this):  (1) Given that your posting style is basicially "I'm Mister I'll-Post-What-I-Want-Without-Caring-Whose-Feelings-Might-Be-Hurt-By-It-As-Long-As-I-Think-It's-Funny," I really didn't think you'd mind a bit of sarcasm in return, especially since it was followed up by an actual serious response; and (2) It was actually followed up by a serious, albeit short, response, which was:  As WW said, it sucks that a lot of churches and their members react the way you described, and if you can post some specifics, I'd be happy to post something more detailed.  Also, as you know, if you ever want to call me to discuss anything, or if you want to post something on SSF so it is more private, I'm happy to talk in either of those formats as well.

[bosk1]

Wow, it seems strange to be saying this in the context of a religious thread, but...I mostly agree with everything El Barto just said. 

[Dr. DTVT]

James - just focus on being a good person, and the rest will sort itself out.  You'll be surprised, being a good person and being a good Christian have like 99% overlap, and you'll be doing things for yourself so you won't care what outside viewers think.

It sounds more like you are questioning established religion more than your own beliefs.  Maybe being a free agent (religiously speaking) and just participating in the organizational aspects of religion will either rekindle your fire or lead you to a better understanding of your beliefs.

[jsem]

It's annoying that many churches disparage doubting instead of dealing with it, because people don't get answers to their questions and eventually leave Christianity.

There's nothing wrong with doubt. If you're doubting it means you're brain works as intended. I went through a similar period a few years ago and it motivated me to hit the books, learn as much as I could. I suggest you do the same. It may change your mind or it might confirm your beliefs, either way it'll be rewarding.

Echoing this.

[Jamesman42]

Sounds to me like it's not your Christian faith that's troubling you, but trying to live up to what everybody else seems to think is the nature of a good Christian.  With that in mind,  Braveheart is right on the money.  From my point of view, there's nobody that can tell you how to be a good Christian but yourself,  and that's something you should always be questioning.  

Definitely agree that this is part of it. But I am having doubts about God's existence or role in my life, which to me has nothing directly to do with living up to others' standards. Still, you are on the money I think.

(1) Given that your posting style is basicially "I'm Mister I'll-Post-What-I-Want-Without-Caring-Whose-Feelings-Might-Be-Hurt-By-It-As-Long-As-I-Think-It's-Funny,"

Whose feelings have I hurt? Or, how I have been like that? I don't believe I cross that line at all. If I do, I myself apologize. But that is news to me.

[Adami]

Just make sure you can live with yourself.

[MasterShakezula]

I'm an odd case, I think.

In the household I've grown up in, I was never exposed to or brought into religion.  It wasn't until about elementary school when I actually even heard of it.  Still, I don't know what to make of it; the idea of a being above any rules of nature having supreme authority and power above existence is something I've never gotten my head around. 

I've always tried to live my life seeking out the good in myself and avoiding or expelling the bad, generally.  I have never really believed in a religion, though I have no issues at all with people seeking sanctity through religion, nor do I approve of the hardcore atheists (i.e. the Amazing Atheist, who I do see eye-to-eye on some political issues) who go out of their way to beat down on religion.  I guess the presence or non-presence of divinity in the universe has never really affected me and how I live, though I sometimes am left pondering at late night about what is real and what is to become of me and what is running the big show...

[yeshaberto]

hey man, life is indeed hard.  sorry you are experiencing these emotions and doubts right now, and will be in deep prayer for you.  I have been there many times (some more and some less intense), but I love you either way

[Adami]

hey man, life is indeed hard.  sorry you are experiencing these emotions and doubts right now, and will be in deep prayer for you.  I have been there many times (some more and some less intense), but I love you either way

I think James himself has said that people telling him that they'll pray for him was a bit annoying to him.

[73109]

I wanted to say the same thing...

Seriously, not to get a rise out of anybody, but is praying going to do?

[Major Thirteenth]

Over the past few months, I've stepped away from the attempt to be a good Christian. I feel like it has been a somewhat fruitless attempt to live life. A lot of time, I felt like such a hypocrite when people would say "James is a good Christian man" or "He is a man of God." Uh, I dunno, it was weird hearing those things because I know I am not perfect (and I'm sure those people know that too, but still).

So, in order to let things level out and not be such a burden in my mind and life, I let go of a lot of connections and hanging out with people within the Christian community. Not completely cut off, but mostly text messages and facebook chatter. A lot of them, quite frankly, are annoying on some level. Maybe it's just my personality and how, in real life, I tend to have a few close friends and a crapload of acquaintances. I allowed myself to be able to drink again without this sense of guilt within. Same with swearing, fapping, and other things in general. Pretty much stopped reading my Bible and praying.

Also, I'm not sure where I stand as far as declaring a religion is concerned. I believe in God still, and that Jesus Christ was the Son of God. I dunno, I cannot shake that if I wanted to. But everything else, and I mean everything, is out of my mind. I just don't wanna think about it. I feel burned out on it. I feel like I don't need it. And currently I am enjoying life a lot.

Still, having said that, I have this sense of agnosticism propping up, questioning things. But maybe it's not agnosticism and I am being retarded calling it that. But I am starting to wonder if God really exists. Flirting with the idea I suppose.

Anywho, I wanted to post this here because there are some open-minded people (Christian and non-Christian alike) that I feel very keen to talking to and generally feel welcome to share things with. I guess anonymity helps, but the community on the whole is great for support/advice/general "being there for each other"-ness.

(There is more I could write but I don't feel like it)

Perspective/agenda: I am an atheist.
You are at a critical philosophical juncture of your life and you will be facing some very tough decisions. But they are yours and only yours to make. Life without religion is not for the feint of heart. Aside from being in an extreme minority that most do not want to hear from, you have to supply all the purpose in life under your own steam. Internalizing to the self all that has been externalized to this point is literally like being "born again". Everything that has been supplied to you from without is on the table. To name a few things that you will now struggle with:

1) Purpose. Why am I here and what am I going to do and why does it matter? It's all up to you to discover, and many wrong decisions are possible if you do not work hard enough to discover and implement the right decisions.
2) Value. Is it all worth it? Of course it is, but only if you make it that way. Very hard work here.
3) Morality. What is right and what is wrong? And most importantly why? You have to rationally decide whether all your actions meet with your moral convictions. I guarantee you that anything you have done in life that you are ashamed of will be much harder to deal with without God. You now will have to live up to your own expectations, expectations you have rationally constructed for yourself, with only you to decide whether you have made the cut, morally speaking. This can be very difficult.
4) Time and value. Being an atheist means replacing the afterlife with Time. Very difficult. The afterlife is a diffuse and open ended promise. Time is a hard limit. Life's value is derived from limited Time. Atheists must deal with this on a daily basis - time cannot be wasted. Not only is it highly limited, it's expiration date is unknowable.
5) Surrender. The profound questions of life will not have answers. What happens when I die? Why am I here? How did Life begin? What is the Universe, when did it start, when will it end? All questions that will no longer be off the table. And all questions that will remain on the table past your personal expiration date.

I could list 20 others, but this is a start. Most adults cannot withstand the psychological pressure of embracing all these questions on a persistent basis for the rest of their lives. It's just too damned hard and demands too much. I think success as an atheist is much easier for those whose doubt sprung from their earliest consciousness.

But! There is absolutely no greater joy than assuming total responsibility for your entire life from philosophy to action and everything in between. The struggle is absolutely delicious and it is filled with wonder, vexation, humor, tears, confusion, resolution, struggle, and joy.

My advice is: Give it a try. But start slowly, your chances of success are very small. The rewards are appropriately very high. Most who go what you are going through will ultimately wither under the fierce headwinds of metaphysical responsibility, and will slide back into the comfort of religion. In short, most people are not good enough to be atheists. Sort of like the Peace Corps: It's the toughest job you'll ever love.

[73109]

Well, surprisingly, and somewhat begrudgingly, I completely agree.

[yeshaberto]

hey man, life is indeed hard.  sorry you are experiencing these emotions and doubts right now, and will be in deep prayer for you.  I have been there many times (some more and some less intense), but I love you either way

I think James himself has said that people telling him that they'll pray for him was a bit annoying to him.

oh, sorry James...certainly don't want to be annoying

[Adami]

hey man, life is indeed hard.  sorry you are experiencing these emotions and doubts right now, and will be in deep prayer for you.  I have been there many times (some more and some less intense), but I love you either way

I think James himself has said that people telling him that they'll pray for him was a bit annoying to him.

oh, sorry James...certainly don't want to be annoying

I think the whole "I'll pray for you" thing is helpful when devout believers are going through worldly problems, like if someone is in the hospital or something along those lines. But when someone is having a crisis of faith, then I'll pray for you line sounds a bit more like "Well....my faith is strong enough for the both of us", which is just kind of ignoring what he's going through. You know?

[Jamesman42]

For the record, that was Cole that said that, not me. Yesh youre good man

[Adami]

For the record, that was Cole that said that, not me. Yesh youre good man

Fair enough, I'll stay quiet.

[contest_sanity]

James, man (lolpunintended), it's cool.

you're still cool

you can doubt it all

you can fap

drink

do coke

or sprite

it's all right

if there's a god,

he understands

remember they put nails

through his hands

and he replied

"what the fuck

ya doing here, dad?"

this ain't how it was

supposed to go down...

but did you

know

sometimes

you just have to drown

in

order

to

rise

again

but with all that said

let me say

"hey, i'm a friend."

so let's do brunch

or drink

some wicked punch

and i'll tell you about

how i understand every single thing you're feeling.

What follows is what I posted in H's similar thread a couple months ago.  I think it still sums up where I am, which I replicate here to hopefully show that you're not alone in having these feelings, and that I'd love to help, listen, etc. in any way I can.  Even if that's for you to tell me to FUCK OFF, and then FUCK BACK ON:

"I wouldn't say I've been "on fire" (whatever that means) for Jesus in a while.

Throughout the last 10 years of my life, I've been at lots of different places with my life with Christ.

I have been that guy out on campus doing open-air preaching (though not the "you're all going to hell" type preaching).

I have been the charismatic believer who had deeply emotional encounters with the Spirit that manifested in strange ways (i.e. slain in the Spirit), encounters which I still believe were real.

I have been the intellectual seminary student studying all the relevant sources, sometimes to the point of arrogance towards others not "in the know" (whether an atheist or the Christian in some country Georgia church), other times to the point of not knowing what to believe anymore.

I have also dealt with severe mental illness (bipolar disorder) that nearly destroyed my marriage and life, during which I found very little support from a lot of the Christian "community" I belonged to (though there were some very important individuals who stood by me).

Now I find myself preparing to become a high school teacher, as opposed to the pastor or biblical scholar I thought I'd be just a few years ago.  I haven't attended church much at all the past 2 years because my current job in retail does not allow it.  I rarely read my Bible and don't often pray unless I have a strong need to.  I don't have any of the feelings of a "strong" or "on-fire" relationship with God.  Yet, I certainly consider myself a Christian, still think it contains the most truth, and my wife and I are trying our best to raise our son with a knowledge of Jesus.

I still have certain convictions which are very strong, such as recently when a lot of Christians I know were celebrating the death of Osama Bin Laden.  My wife and I both are very much of a pacifistic bent, and the pro-militarism of our society disgusts me.  Yet I have friends who are like: "how are you going to speak out on that issue when you post rap songs on the internet that have cursing and glorify drugs, murder, etc.?"  While for the most part I feel like such friends are wrong and have a very restricted view of art, a part of me wonders if they have a point.

Sometimes I feel like the biggest hypocrite, but I remind myself that's it's still a relationship with Christ.  Sometimes in a relationship, you're not particularly close to the other person.  I wish I was closer to him (sometimes), but right now now I find myself kind of in this apathetic place. 

Or perhaps it's not apathy at all but that I mentally connect being "on fire" for Christ to all those things -- zealous witnessing, charismatic fervor, legalistic attitudes on cursing, etc. -- that I just can't go back to.  And maybe I just haven't fully become comfortable with this new way of being Christian that I am experiencing."

TL,DR: I'm here for ya, bro.

[yeshaberto]

hey man, life is indeed hard.  sorry you are experiencing these emotions and doubts right now, and will be in deep prayer for you.  I have been there many times (some more and some less intense), but I love you either way

I think James himself has said that people telling him that they'll pray for him was a bit annoying to him.

oh, sorry James...certainly don't want to be annoying

I think the whole "I'll pray for you" thing is helpful when devout believers are going through worldly problems, like if someone is in the hospital or something along those lines. But when someone is having a crisis of faith, then I'll pray for you line sounds a bit more like "Well....my faith is strong enough for the both of us", which is just kind of ignoring what he's going through. You know?

I don't mind discussing this, but this thread probably isn't a good place for it.

[reo73]

Sounds like you've lost a bit of the emotional joy of being a Christian and that to me is perfectly understandable.  As far as I know, nowhere did it promise to be all shits and giggles when I signed on for the Christian belief.  Jesus came to love others but in doing so he lived a hard life and in many ways as a follower our lives are the same because it requires us to to be self-sacrificing and disciplined when we love.  Here's my challenge to you then, don't look at Christianity as a set of rules or an image to live by.  Instead view it as a calling to show love to others in the best way possible.  Swear if you want to swear but don't do it if it might offend someone.  Drink if you want to drink but don't do it if it might cause another to stumble.  Study God on your own terms and not by how the church or other Christian's tell you to.  And lastly, try to be proactive with your time and talents in getting out of your normal routine or rut to love others...volunteer somewhere.  Go on a short-term mission trip.  Get involved with people who are hurting and seeking instead of "normal" church people.  The proverbial 'rut' of the Christian life can be a bad place, I have been there before myself, and the best I can say is do something outside your normal world of life to love others.

[j]

Good posts by WW, Barto, lordxizor, and DTVT.

Just remember, if the Christian God is out there, don't you think he values honesty and sincerity over blindly going through the motions without questioning anything?  He gave you a brain and the capacity to ask questions and learn...to NOT do so is really an insult to his supposed creation.

I'm not sure what your specific background within Christianity is, but I echo the sentiments of those who say a great deal of what is valued in a lot of Christian communities (particularly of the "evangelical" variety) is pretty far off-base with regard to what Jesus and his disciples taught.  So don't be concerned with surrounding yourself with people who just reinforce each others' narrow worldview; you don't grow or learn that way.

Although I'm not a Christian, I won't try to steer you one way or the other as some seem to feel the need to do.  But I will add that one thing about Jesus is that he never said that this life would be all fun and games.  If you're serious about being a good Christian, you have to accept that it takes sacrifices and there are no promises of prosperity or unending joy here on earth.  That said, I hardly think that means you can't do anything you enjoy, especially stuff like drinking within reason, WTF.

-J