Author Topic: Election 2012  (Read 231749 times)

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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #420 on: December 08, 2011, 08:08:43 AM »
I don't doubt that.  I don't doubt it one bit.  And I really, frankly, kind of like Ron Paul.  But he's a politician.  Look at that ad!  It's intelligence-insulting bilge.  A big fat piece of bleeding red meat bullshit tossed to the hard right Tea Party crowd because he's in third place in Iowa and needs to do something.  Which is precisely my point.  He's a politician, that's what these guys do.  He seems like a nice enough guy, but when you did a little deeper he's, well, kind of a kook too.

And despite what others will claim over and over here he IS an isolationist. 

I really don't have anything against the guy personally, I just marvel at the legions of people who line up to kiss his ring and lots of them (not saying you or any other specific individuals here on this board) are not even really that aware of a lot of his policy positions.

Ok. Feels like we're just debating the definition of isolationism.

Quote from: Wikipedia
Nonintervention is distinct from isolationism, the latter featuring economic nationalism (protectionism) and restrictive immigration. Proponents of non-interventionism distinguish their policies from isolationism through their advocacy of more open national relations, to include diplomacy and free trade.

But whatever, as a matter of public policy, Ron Paul has got foreign policy RIGHT.


And, yeah - the cabinet level departments are discretionary spending - but NOWHERE in the ad did it suggest that the 1 trillion in cuts came only from those cabinet level departments. Did you even read this?:
See for yourself here, there's about 300B in cuts in discretionary though.
https://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/ron-paul-plan-to-restore-america/

This is how discretionary spending would look like following Paul's plan:


But the entire ad, which I cited here word for word says exactly that! Here it is again.

What's up with these sorry politicians? Lots of bark, but when it's showtime, wimpering like little shitzus. You want big cuts, Ron Paul's been screaming it for years.  Budget crisis?  No problem!  Cut a trillion bucks year one. That's trillion with a T. Department of Education?  Gone! Interior? Energy? HUD? Commerce? Gone! Later beurocrats!  That's how Ron Paul rolls.  Wanna drain the swamp?  Ron Paul! Do it!

If that is not implying that he's going to cut $1 Trillion from the budget by eliminating those agencies, then, I don't know what else it is implying.

Regardless of that, my ENTIRE POINT was that as I have stated here, Ron Paul is a typical politician who will say whatever he needs to say in order to get elected.  And stupid monster-truck ads like this one prove it.  He's not going to cut $1 Trillion from any budget in one year.  NO ONE IS.  That's a fucking fantasy.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #421 on: December 08, 2011, 08:10:59 AM »
FWIW, I LOVE his ideas on Foreign Policy!

Offline antigoon

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #422 on: December 08, 2011, 08:40:02 AM »
@Scheavo: Yes, replacing the entire Congress would be great, but the President is the one person who has the most power to shape public opinion and the terms of the debate through the bully pulpit. And I know, advice and consent, but he didn't have to pick the safest, most entrenched people around.

@SD: It's pretty clear he's back in actual campaign mode though, because he's been saying the right things again. 


Offline Super Dude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #423 on: December 08, 2011, 09:15:21 AM »
Of course, but can you blame him? It's campaign season.
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Offline antigoon

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #424 on: December 08, 2011, 09:22:03 AM »
Not really, I just don't know why people are getting all excited

Offline Sigz

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #425 on: December 08, 2011, 09:24:13 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PAJNntoRgA

Quote
I'm not ashamed to admit that I'm a Christian, but you don't need to be in the pew every Sunday to know there's something wrong in this country when gays can serve openly in the military but our kids can't openly celebrate Christmas or pray in school.
As President, I'll end Obama's war on religion. And I'll fight against liberal attacks on our religious heritage.
Faith made America strong. It can make her strong again.
I'm Rick Perry and I approve this message.


lol
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Offline antigoon

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #426 on: December 08, 2011, 09:32:07 AM »
YEAH THE TRUTH IS FUNNY HUH

Offline jsem

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #427 on: December 08, 2011, 09:40:44 AM »
But the entire ad, which I cited here word for word says exactly that! Here it is again.

What's up with these sorry politicians? Lots of bark, but when it's showtime, wimpering like little shitzus. You want big cuts, Ron Paul's been screaming it for years.  Budget crisis?  No problem!  Cut a trillion bucks year one. That's trillion with a T. Department of Education?  Gone! Interior? Energy? HUD? Commerce? Gone! Later beurocrats!  That's how Ron Paul rolls.  Wanna drain the swamp?  Ron Paul! Do it!

If that is not implying that he's going to cut $1 Trillion from the budget by eliminating those agencies, then, I don't know what else it is implying.
If that's what it suggests to you, that's what it suggests to you. But that's not the message he's trying to convey with the ad though. I never saw it in that light, but I do agree that the ad is terrible and trying to appeal to monster truck fans - but if that's what's needed for him to win the Iowa caucuses, then so be it.

Regardless of that, my ENTIRE POINT was that as I have stated here, Ron Paul is a typical politician who will say whatever he needs to say in order to get elected.  And stupid monster-truck ads like this one prove it.  He's not going to cut $1 Trillion from any budget in one year.  NO ONE IS.  That's a fucking fantasy.

What about Gary Johnson? He has PROMISED to propose a balanced budget in the FY 2013, his first FY, if he becomes president. You don't take his word on that? His record as governor speaks for itself.


Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #428 on: December 08, 2011, 12:57:16 PM »
But the entire ad, which I cited here word for word says exactly that! Here it is again.

What's up with these sorry politicians? Lots of bark, but when it's showtime, wimpering like little shitzus. You want big cuts, Ron Paul's been screaming it for years.  Budget crisis?  No problem!  Cut a trillion bucks year one. That's trillion with a T. Department of Education?  Gone! Interior? Energy? HUD? Commerce? Gone! Later beurocrats!  That's how Ron Paul rolls.  Wanna drain the swamp?  Ron Paul! Do it!

If that is not implying that he's going to cut $1 Trillion from the budget by eliminating those agencies, then, I don't know what else it is implying.
If that's what it suggests to you, that's what it suggests to you. But that's not the message he's trying to convey with the ad though. I never saw it in that light, but I do agree that the ad is terrible and trying to appeal to monster truck fans - but if that's what's needed for him to win the Iowa caucuses, then so be it.

Isn't that what I've been saying all along?  :lol   We AGREE!  Beers are on me!  :metal

Regardless of that, my ENTIRE POINT was that as I have stated here, Ron Paul is a typical politician who will say whatever he needs to say in order to get elected.  And stupid monster-truck ads like this one prove it.  He's not going to cut $1 Trillion from any budget in one year.  NO ONE IS.  That's a fucking fantasy.

What about Gary Johnson? He has PROMISED to propose a balanced budget in the FY 2013, his first FY, if he becomes president. You don't take his word on that? His record as governor speaks for itself.


A balanced budget by FY 2013? 


In case that's unclear, NO, I don't take his word on it.  Besides Gary Johnson has as much chance of becoming the next President as Charles Manson

Offline jsem

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #429 on: December 08, 2011, 01:28:29 PM »
Gary Johnson doesn't scare off people like RP does. It's sad he has to deal with the social conservatives in the party. Even lots of progressives could agree with him on so much they'd abandon Obama.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #430 on: December 08, 2011, 01:53:14 PM »
Gary Johnson doesn't scare off people like RP does. It's sad he has to deal with the social conservatives in the party. Even lots of progressives could agree with him on so much they'd abandon Obama.

Oh, make no mistake, I've looked him up.  He seems like a decent guy.  I have serious disagreements with him being a liberal and all, but the problem is as a candidate he's nobody.  They won't even let him into the debates.  I'm not saying I agree with that, just making an observation.


Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #431 on: December 08, 2011, 07:38:54 PM »
How is it that the Republican primaries are so full of extremists? Is that really what the GOP is comprised of, or is the tail wagging the dog there?

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Offline MasterShakezula

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #432 on: December 08, 2011, 08:30:32 PM »
More publicity.

Moderates don't make for interesting headlines.

The American popular media can't stand for a lack of headlines.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #433 on: December 08, 2011, 11:07:40 PM »
@Scheavo: Yes, replacing the entire Congress would be great, but the President is the one person who has the most power to shape public opinion and the terms of the debate through the bully pulpit. And I know, advice and consent, but he didn't have to pick the safest, most entrenched people around.

And I'm just asking that you pay attention to how the president is trying to shape the current public opinion. Listen to his speeches. I never heard him really sway off track, I just never heard him when I would have liked to - there were some issues he dropped / ignored / switched on, but it's a continuation of bureaucratic policies in essence. Now that it's campaign season, he not only has a reason to bring up these issues, but the media also has a greater reason to pay attention to them.

Besides, as I already pointed out, the people with the most power to shape public opinion is the Media.

As for the entrenchment, I think part of it could have to do with Obama's inexperience as President (Cabinet members would probably have the most experience in the matter), and experience is something you can't just ignore, even if you disagree with it. I hope the issue comes up in the campaign, and that Obama will change up his cabinet in some area's.


Offline jsem

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #434 on: December 08, 2011, 11:08:20 PM »
Gary Johnson doesn't scare off people like RP does. It's sad he has to deal with the social conservatives in the party. Even lots of progressives could agree with him on so much they'd abandon Obama.

Oh, make no mistake, I've looked him up.  He seems like a decent guy.  I have serious disagreements with him being a liberal and all, but the problem is as a candidate he's nobody.  They won't even let him into the debates.  I'm not saying I agree with that, just making an observation.


Never said he was a liberal. I'm just saying a lot of progressives can find lots they like in him.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #435 on: December 09, 2011, 04:33:40 AM »

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #436 on: December 09, 2011, 08:48:31 AM »
How is it that the Republican primaries are so full of extremists? Is that really what the GOP is comprised of, or is the tail wagging the dog there?

rumborak

I think it's because the primaries (on both sides) attract the most partisan elements of each party.  So, right now, you have the hard-right dominating the race because it's mostly the hard-right that will vote in the primary elections and caucuses.  The minute one of these people gets the nod, you'll see them bolt straight to the political center and only occasionally toss a hunk of red meat (gay marriage ban, low taxes for rich people, prayer in school, etc) out to the extremists.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #437 on: December 09, 2011, 08:50:13 AM »
Gary Johnson doesn't scare off people like RP does. It's sad he has to deal with the social conservatives in the party. Even lots of progressives could agree with him on so much they'd abandon Obama.

Oh, make no mistake, I've looked him up.  He seems like a decent guy.  I have serious disagreements with him being a liberal and all, but the problem is as a candidate he's nobody.  They won't even let him into the debates.  I'm not saying I agree with that, just making an observation.


Never said he was a liberal. I'm just saying a lot of progressives can find lots they like in him.

Right.  I was talking about ME.  I have serious disagreements with him being a liberal and all (<--referring to myself there)

I probably could have worded it better.

Offline chknptpie

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #438 on: December 09, 2011, 09:25:36 AM »
Just missing a comma...
Quote
I have serious disagreements with him, being a liberal and all

Offline antigoon

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #439 on: December 09, 2011, 11:13:57 AM »
@Scheavo: Yes, replacing the entire Congress would be great, but the President is the one person who has the most power to shape public opinion and the terms of the debate through the bully pulpit. And I know, advice and consent, but he didn't have to pick the safest, most entrenched people around.

And I'm just asking that you pay attention to how the president is trying to shape the current public opinion. Listen to his speeches. I never heard him really sway off track, I just never heard him when I would have liked to - there were some issues he dropped / ignored / switched on, but it's a continuation of bureaucratic policies in essence. Now that it's campaign season, he not only has a reason to bring up these issues, but the media also has a greater reason to pay attention to them.

Besides, as I already pointed out, the people with the most power to shape public opinion is the Media.

As for the entrenchment, I think part of it could have to do with Obama's inexperience as President (Cabinet members would probably have the most experience in the matter), and experience is something you can't just ignore, even if you disagree with it. I hope the issue comes up in the campaign, and that Obama will change up his cabinet in some area's.



These are all fair points; however, I still don't believe him when he talks about accountability and economic equality. And about his cabinet, I've read a lot about how poor of a manager of people he is, or at least was at the start of his presidency. I would like to think he's improved since then, but how can we really know if he keeps the same power players around? It would be very nice indeed if he changed it up.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #440 on: December 09, 2011, 11:19:23 AM »
Every president who has had a second term since I can remember (going back to Nixon) has shaken up their cabinet for their second term.  I see no reason to believe that Obama would be any different. Hillary Clinton, for example, has already stated many times that she will not serve a second term as Secretary of State (which is a damned shame, I think, because she's probably the best cabinet member he's got)



Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #441 on: December 09, 2011, 11:20:07 AM »
Just missing a comma...
Quote
I have serious disagreements with him, being a liberal and all

Yeah, you're right.  Pure laziness too.  Or should I write:  Pure laziness, too.  :P

Offline sonatafanica

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #442 on: December 09, 2011, 11:54:09 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PAJNntoRgA

Quote
I'm not ashamed to admit that I'm a Christian, but you don't need to be in the pew every Sunday to know there's something wrong in this country when gays can serve openly in the military but our kids can't openly celebrate Christmas or pray in school.
As President, I'll end Obama's war on religion. And I'll fight against liberal attacks on our religious heritage.
Faith made America strong. It can make her strong again.
I'm Rick Perry and I approve this message.


lol

oh those poor, poor christians. always the victims.

so brave of him to admit he's a christian in a predominantly christian country




Offline lordxizor

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #443 on: December 09, 2011, 01:22:13 PM »
The interesting thing about America is that in general we look down on people who do not claim to be Christian, but also look down on people who are "too Christian." In order to really fit in, you basically need to be someone who goes to church on a semi-regular basis, believe in the vague notion of a god, but don't really let it get in the way of your daily life all that much outside of giving a little bit of money to your church and maybe saying grace before dinner. Basically what I think Perry is trying to say is that he's not ashamed to say he's in with the people that are "too Christian" for your average American.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #444 on: December 09, 2011, 01:23:36 PM »
Rick Perry is blatantly pandering to Evangelicals because they make up a large swath of Republican primary voters and his handlers know that.

Offline lordxizor

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #445 on: December 09, 2011, 01:33:48 PM »
Rick Perry is blatantly pandering to Evangelicals because they make up a large swath of Republican primary voters and his handlers know that.
Absolutely. I don't think anyone who is really a devout Christian in the sense that they try to emulate Jesus in all aspects of their life would ever go into politics. There's too much ego involved.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #446 on: December 09, 2011, 01:45:42 PM »
Rick Perry is blatantly pandering to Evangelicals because they make up a large swath of Republican primary voters and his handlers know that.
Absolutely. I don't think anyone who is really a devout Christian in the sense that they try to emulate Jesus in all aspects of their life would ever go into politics. There's too much ego involved.

That's a very good observation and one I wholeheartedly agree with.   :hat

Offline jsem

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #447 on: December 09, 2011, 03:18:04 PM »
Especially in Iowa. Iowa has a huge evangelical electorate.

Offline Implode

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #448 on: December 09, 2011, 03:33:10 PM »
So yeah. All that stuff is happening at my school. Cool stuff.

Offline jsem

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #449 on: December 09, 2011, 03:39:26 PM »
So yeah. All that stuff is happening at my school. Cool stuff.
Don't see it having relevance to this election, but it was sad.

Offline Implode

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #450 on: December 09, 2011, 04:05:03 PM »
Sorry. I think I was half asleep when I posted that.

I meant that the debate tomorrow night was happening at my school. Unfortunately I wasn't able to get tickets to it.

Offline jsem

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #451 on: December 09, 2011, 04:08:36 PM »
Oh, really? That bares some significance then. I hope it's dealt with in the best possible way.

Edit:

Wait a minute. LOL. I'm misreading everything, thought you meant in the first post that you were a student at Virginia Tech.

Nvm, disregard all my comments.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #452 on: December 09, 2011, 05:36:57 PM »
This is how discretionary spending would look like following Paul's plan:

[/quote]

To quote Beverly Crusher, "When you got a patient who just got stabbed, you don't pull out the knife. That'll do more damage than leaving it in."

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Offline abrahamclark

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #453 on: December 11, 2011, 12:40:40 AM »
Regardless of that, my ENTIRE POINT was that as I have stated here, Ron Paul is a typical politician who will say whatever he needs to say in order to get elected. 

If this were true he'd say that gays are inhuman, drug prohibition is great, the patriot act is constitutional, and that we should bomb Iran.  The advertisement emphasizes a position he strongly believes in and fights for, which also concurs with the position of many voters.  This is certainly not the same as, "saying whatever he needs to say in order to get elected."




« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 01:00:51 AM by abrahamclark »

Offline Implode

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #454 on: December 11, 2011, 02:07:57 AM »
So I saw about 5 minutes of the debate. It seemed like the republicans were just fighting over who hated Obama the most because apparently whoever does hate him the most wins.