Author Topic: Election 2012  (Read 124659 times)

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Offline Sigz

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #70 on: September 07, 2011, 11:02:11 PM »
What really blows my mind is how Romney defended MA's healthcare system while lambasting Obama's. Apparently it's okay to require people to have insurance in Massachusetts because there someone who doesn't have insurance can just go to a hospital and still get treated, unlike every other state.
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Offline snapple

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #71 on: September 08, 2011, 07:29:03 AM »
I really don't see Obama being a second term president.
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Offline lordxizor

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #72 on: September 08, 2011, 07:32:27 AM »
I really don't see Obama being a second term president.
I wouldn't either if the Republicans could come up with a decent candidate. So far they haven't found one that is going to appeal to the moderate, undecided voter, IMO.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #73 on: September 08, 2011, 07:38:34 AM »
I'm not surprised the Republicans can't get a good candidate together. The same right-win extremism that so successfully sabotaged Obama in many aspects, now gets them because they suddenly have to turn the whole party around to be more moderate. Which they can't.

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Offline PraXis

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #74 on: September 08, 2011, 08:40:15 AM »
What really blows my mind is how Romney defended MA's healthcare system while lambasting Obama's. Apparently it's okay to require people to have insurance in Massachusetts because there someone who doesn't have insurance can just go to a hospital and still get treated, unlike every other state.

A state can mandate purchasing insurance if their state constitution allows it. The US Constitution cannot mandate that you or I purchase anything. The MA bill has been a abysmal failure, and Obamacare will be even worse... until the SCOTUS strikes it down.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #75 on: September 08, 2011, 08:58:53 AM »
The MA bill has been a abysmal failure

:lol

I am sure in your favorite literature it is. For the rest of the population, it was rather successful, and that is actually Romney's double-edged sword.

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Offline El Barto

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #76 on: September 08, 2011, 09:01:17 AM »
The MA bill has been a abysmal failure

:lol

I am sure in your favorite literature it is.
Romney's biggest problem is that it is so successful.

rumborak

Yeah, I was just going to say that.  It's been quite successful and the people there sure seem to like it.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #77 on: September 08, 2011, 09:02:31 AM »
It's been a heaven-sent for me, getting affordable insurance for my trip. And frankly, it makes me feel I live in a civilized state.

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Offline Orion1967

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #78 on: September 08, 2011, 11:10:56 AM »
I'll be more interested in how things go in congress. Will people be pissed at the Republicans for basically refusing to compromise on anything? From polls I've seen a large majority of Americans want tax loopholes closed and higher taxes on the rich. The Republicans refused to let these things happen. I don't think that most Americans want only spending cuts.

Absolutely I only want spending cuts.  The government is out of control with spending.  Obama and his congress have blasted our deficit higher in his 3 years than the entireity of it in the last 200 years.   If you cut all the crap out that Obama has socialized thus far, put it back in private sector hands, let a free market economy progress then America will prosper.  I think that the rich and middle class and the poor should be taxed by an equal percentage.  The Fair tax would solve much of our nations taxation problems and be fair to everyone.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #79 on: September 08, 2011, 12:17:20 PM »
What really blows my mind is how Romney defended MA's healthcare system while lambasting Obama's. Apparently it's okay to require people to have insurance in Massachusetts because there someone who doesn't have insurance can just go to a hospital and still get treated, unlike every other state.

A state can mandate purchasing insurance if their state constitution allows it. The US Constitution cannot mandate that you or I purchase anything. The MA bill has been a abysmal failure, and Obamacare will be even worse... until the SCOTUS strikes it down.

See, I think the state rights argument makes sense on some level... but then, pragmatically, you would still be forced to buy insurance. Are you really fucking telling me it matters to you if federal government forces you to do something over the state government? I call massive bullshit, as you'd be against it no matter who's mandating you buy health insurance.

Absolutely I only want spending cuts.  The government is out of control with spending.  Obama and his congress have blasted our deficit higher in his 3 years than the entireity of it in the last 200 years.   If you cut all the crap out that Obama has socialized thus far, put it back in private sector hands, let a free market economy progress then America will prosper.

Obama hasn't socialized anything, and most of the huge deficit and debt can be traced back to prior organizations and commitments (Bush Tax Cuts, Iraq/Afghanistan, TARP, Social Security/Welfare). Blaming Obama and "his" congress is ridiculous when the blame goes everywhere, especially when blaming one side only helps cement the corruption in place.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #80 on: September 08, 2011, 01:22:41 PM »
Patti Davis penned a nice editorial concerning last nights GOP sham.  To be clear,  I think her old man was a senile twit, but she's absolutely right about some of his better character traits, and dead on about how far removed from the the right has become.  It's astonishing to me that the GOP has moved so far from their revered messiah that Obama is a much better approximation of him than any candidate they can create.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2092425,00.html

an excerpt:
Quote from: Patti Davis
That character is what drew people to my father, whether or not they agreed with his politics. That character is what we are starving for, that many of us had hoped we would find but are now disappointed that we are not in President Obama. I think my father, if he were here, would also be disappointed in this administration. But here is the important part: he would never have expressed that with anger and vitriol and snarky soundbites. The Republican candidates tonight appeared to be auditioning for a reality show, not for the lofty position of leading America through and out of these terribly troubled times.

Ironically, the one man on stage who did comport himself with dignity, John Huntsman, is now being dismissed as having not made an impact. The moment he brought the discussion back from airport security to the sweeping poverty and economic panic that is gripping this country was, I thought, profound. It was something my father would have done. But that moment isn't making the news. The zingers like Perry's Ponzi-scheme comment, in reference to Social Security, are getting more attention. Maybe the candidates should have wandered over to my father's gravesite before going on stage. Maybe they should have lingered over the words carved in stone there.

The moment that would have broken my father's heart was the moment when applause broke out at the mention of more than 200 executions ordered by Rick Perry in Texas. It was stunning and brought tears to my eyes. This is what we've come to? That we applaud at executions?

I remember the first time my father ordered an execution when he was Governor. He and a minister went into a room, got down on their knees and prayed. The real shame of our times is that there doesn't seem to be anyone on the political horizon with that compassion in his or her heart.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2092425,00.html#ixzz1XOFfJqOX
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Offline Chino

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #81 on: September 08, 2011, 01:32:00 PM »
I agree with a lot of the stuff you quoted there, Barto. It seems like the majority of people in government are there strictly for their egos, and not for the well being of America. It sickens me. Take Linda McMahon For example. She has no business in politics. Nothing she says or does make me think she's in it to help Americans get through life as hassle free as possible,. What's her motive? Other than getting shit loads of attention, I don't see any.

I know it's not really plausible, but I'd love to see some ordinary person make a name for themselves using nothing more than the Internet as a medium. I'd like to see someone run a free campaign (mostly free) using nothing but a personal website, YouTube, twitter, etc... Keep all the bullshit of campaign donations out of the picture and do nothing but interact with Americans virtually, day in and day out. I think thats one of the very few ways we can get good and honest people in the seats of congress.

Offline Chino

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #82 on: September 08, 2011, 01:37:08 PM »
I'll be more interested in how things go in congress. Will people be pissed at the Republicans for basically refusing to compromise on anything? From polls I've seen a large majority of Americans want tax loopholes closed and higher taxes on the rich. The Republicans refused to let these things happen. I don't think that most Americans want only spending cuts.

Absolutely I only want spending cuts.  The government is out of control with spending.  Obama and his congress have blasted our deficit higher in his 3 years than the entireity of it in the last 200 years.   If you cut all the crap out that Obama has socialized thus far, put it back in private sector hands, let a free market economy progress then America will prosper.  I think that the rich and middle class and the poor should be taxed by an equal percentage.  The Fair tax would solve much of our nations taxation problems and be fair to everyone.

The shitty part is, we could cut spending all day long and we will still be going into deeper debt. America's problem is at we don't produce anything. We offer very little to the rest of the world. Even with spending cuts and tax increases, we still won't be bringing new money in.

Offline TL

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #83 on: September 08, 2011, 04:57:01 PM »
It's really funny for any non-American when someone starts ranting about how left wing Obama is and how he's socializing everything.
In basically any other developed country, Obama would be a far-right conservative.

One of the main problems with American politics right now is that so many people seem to have lost the ability to conduct themselves like adults. As Bob Dole said during the 1996 election, "President Clinton is my political opponent, not my enemy". People you disagree with politically aren't all crazy radicals who want to destroy the country, they're fellow citizens with different opinions and views.

As for the upcoming election itself, the nominee will either be Romney, or someone who isn't in the race yet. It will be closer than 2008, but Obama will be re-elected.

Offline snapple

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #84 on: September 08, 2011, 08:40:24 PM »
I think Romney is the most moderate of the pool of 'pubs at the moment.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #85 on: September 08, 2011, 08:53:02 PM »
Well, Romney wouldn't be too bad really. If it comes down to that showdown, I'd be happy.

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Offline snapple

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #86 on: September 08, 2011, 08:59:26 PM »
Well, Romney wouldn't be too bad really. If it comes down to that showdown, I'd be happy.

rumborak

I agree. I'm conservative at heart, but I know and understand reality is in the middle. I think Romney can reflect that.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #87 on: September 08, 2011, 09:12:17 PM »
One of the main problems with American politics right now is that so many people seem to have lost the ability to conduct themselves like adults. As Bob Dole said during the 1996 election, "President Clinton is my political opponent, not my enemy". People you disagree with politically aren't all crazy radicals who want to destroy the country, they're fellow citizens with different opinions and views.

Dole's was a reasonable position, and it's also exactly what Patti Davis was referring to in the editorial I cited earlier.  That said, a lot of the people they're fielding actually are crazy radicals.  There are some reasonable candidates, but they're invisible next to the more popular whack jobs. 
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline 73109

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #88 on: September 08, 2011, 09:55:32 PM »
I tried watching the debate just now. I really did. I got through a half hour and nearly puked. I think that they were all too busy taking shots at Obama, taking shots at each  other, and verbally fellating themselves to focus on what would actually work.

Offline MasterShakezula

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #89 on: September 08, 2011, 10:49:37 PM »
I find most of the Repubs going for the Prez-ull to be far too conservative for a prog-con such as myself. 

Though, I wouldn't really feel too affected if Rom won the nomination and beat Bama.  If the Pubs keep their hold on the Legis, or (probably) even gain even more of a hold there, I doubt there'd be too much of a difference between more Bama, and 4 years of a Pub Prez. 

Offline chknptpie

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #90 on: September 09, 2011, 07:20:30 AM »
It took me 3 times to read that and understand it.

Offline MetalMike06

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #91 on: September 09, 2011, 06:59:23 PM »
I find it pretty disheartening that Rick Perry is taken so seriously. He just seems like a ghost of GWB. It seems like the guy wasn't that well known until the media started telling everybody that he was a frontrunner. Like...before he even entered the race, his name is all I read in the news about "GOP frontrunners".

Offline El Barto

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #92 on: September 09, 2011, 07:08:33 PM »
I find it pretty disheartening that Rick Perry is taken so seriously. He just seems like a ghost of GWB. It seems like the guy wasn't that well known until the media started telling everybody that he was a frontrunner. Like...before he even entered the race, his name is all I read in the news about "GOP frontrunners".
Well, obviously I'm familiar more familiar with that guy, but I do share your bewilderment into how these people suddenly become the front runners.  It seems a bit far fetched to assume that it's entirely the media who's responsible, but they're certainly the ones to bring people straight to the front of the pack.  Something else that feeds that problem is that Iowa and New Hampshire have so much bearing in who gets nominated.  What makes them so special?

As for him being Bush Jr., that's not quite the case.  For one thing they really disliked each other quite a bit.  It's also worth noting that Perry was Democrat for half of his career.  When Texas started moving from D to R, he jumped ship.  The man certainly knows when to jump on an opportunity.  Bush was many rotten things, but he wasn't superficial, and that's probably the most apt description of Perry I could conjure up. 
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Offline TL

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #93 on: September 10, 2011, 02:36:13 PM »
Just a little something for fun more than anything;

The most recent Republican debate in 45 seconds;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTZrMNPhQAc

Offline El Barto

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #94 on: October 13, 2011, 08:15:44 PM »
So this Hermann Cain fellow is really picking up some steam.  I haven't factored him into my predictions,  and don't really know how to at this point.  From what I gather,  he's actually tried to be a good candidate at the debates, and was completely ignored for it.  Now I gather they can't ignore him any more,  so I might actually watch a debate to see how he comes across. 

The one thing I do know about him is that his 9-9-9 plan scares the hell out of me.  I'm at a point where it could conceivably bury me.  Thankfully,  I doubt he'd ever get it to happen, but just the idea spooks me.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #95 on: October 13, 2011, 08:46:30 PM »
What really blows my mind is how Romney defended MA's healthcare system while lambasting Obama's. Apparently it's okay to require people to have insurance in Massachusetts because there someone who doesn't have insurance can just go to a hospital and still get treated, unlike every other state.

Not to mention he tried to push the exact same bill through the Legislature just before the '08 Election, isn't that true?
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #96 on: October 13, 2011, 10:36:02 PM »
I find the real shame with the Republicans is that they have become the party of unattainable promises. They seem to want to stand for a USA that existed 30 years ago, i.e. the only superpower in town, controlling its assets militarily across the globe, where Global Warming didn't exist and Evolution was heathen talk. The other day I heard some radio snippet of a prominent Republican (can't remember who) judging Chris Christie as too liberal since he acknowledged some element of human activity in Global Warming.

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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #97 on: October 13, 2011, 11:16:54 PM »
I've become convinced that the Republican Party and the more fervent among its supporters dream of returning to:







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Offline MasterShakezula

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #98 on: October 13, 2011, 11:19:40 PM »
Hmm, it makes me wonder,

What is the median age of the Republicans in the Fed, as well as the median age of their voterbase, vs. those of the Democrats?

I'm betting that many of the Repubs in office probably grew up in that era. 

Offline El Barto

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #99 on: October 13, 2011, 11:27:31 PM »
I've become convinced that the Republican Party and the more fervent among its supporters dream of returning to:



The real world equivalent.  Far from the Republican ideal,  this is what scares the hell out of them.
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #100 on: October 14, 2011, 08:11:10 AM »
How about some background on that, Bartoman.

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #101 on: October 14, 2011, 11:25:13 AM »
Rick Perry will be the Republican nominee, Obama will not have a primary challenge, but he's a weak candidate because the economy has not turned around fast enough and even though it's really not his fault he's still going to receive the brunt of the blame for it.

I think the presidential election will be very, very close.  It's difficult to unseat an incumbent president. I hold up George W. Bush as an example.  His favorability ratings at this point were 5 to 7 points lower than Obama's and he beat John Kerry fairly handily.  Granted, John Kerry is about as charismatic as a fucking brick, and Obama's going to have to go up against Rick Perry, who, despite his faults, is a seasoned campaigner......but the problem is, political insiders are not in vogue right now, and Perry, despite the strong economy in Texas, carries a lot baggage.

It's definitely going to be a very interesting election cycle.

Looks like I was jumping the gun here.  I didn't expect Perry to flame out that quickly.  It's looking more and more like Romney will be the nominee.

Regardless of who wins the nomination, Obama has an uphill battle.

As a liberal registered Democrat, I obviously can't support a Republican, but of the current crop of candidates, Romney is probably the one that I could live with the most, and he polls the best against Obama, but it's been looking like the Republicans want to maybe nominate someone to his right like Cain.

That would be GREAT, because he's, well, kinda nuts  :lol


Offline Super Dude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #102 on: October 14, 2011, 11:35:46 AM »
How about some background on that, Bartoman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_American_Family

I'm actually surprised something like that got on public TV at that time in our cultural history.
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #103 on: October 14, 2011, 11:39:51 AM »
What really blows my mind is how Romney defended MA's healthcare system while lambasting Obama's. Apparently it's okay to require people to have insurance in Massachusetts because there someone who doesn't have insurance can just go to a hospital and still get treated, unlike every other state.

A state can mandate purchasing insurance if their state constitution allows it. The US Constitution cannot mandate that you or I purchase anything. The MA bill has been a abysmal failure, and Obamacare will be even worse... until the SCOTUS strikes it down.

uh, no.  The MA law has NOT been an abysmal failure.  In fact, despite my general distaste for the personal mandate in the MA law and in the Obama law, the facts are clear:  It has been extremely successful.  You can read more about the success of the MA healthcare law here:  http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2011/04/mvf_healthcare_mass.html

Romney is just parsing words with his criticism of Obama's law, mostly because he doesn't have any choice if he wants to get elected.

Frankly, I think Obama's health care law sucks, but that's because I wanted a SINGLE PAYER system.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #104 on: October 14, 2011, 11:42:10 AM »
For those of us ignorant to the particulars of health policy, what is a single payer system?
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