Election 2012

[ReaPsTA]

Reapsta, I would love there to be an actually good reason behind it. Unless proven otherwise, out of history I just have to assume that this is pandering to right-wing parents who don't appreciate their kids disagreeing with them.

rumborak

It's not a matter of whether the reason is good or not.  I'm inclined to believe that they're not just wrong, but dangerously wrong.

It's also irrelevant.  You CANNOT simply dismiss, ridicule, and blow off nearly half the country's electorate and not expect them to be enraged.  You're all doing it in this thread and then saying it's the Republicans' fault for having a completely natural reaction.

By talking about what's right and what's wrong, you're falling into the same intellectual limitations the Republicans are.  Abstinence only education is what god would want, so it's right.  No thinking required.  You're saying "The Republicans are acting like idiots, so they must be wrong" and doing the same thing.

Do you think that if you ignore them they'll just go away?  That's what the Republicans tried with the Democrats during Bush's presidency, and they paid for it in 2006 and 2008.

Show me some Democrats that are advocating "Abstinence Only"  I won't hold my breath while you look.

I can do this too:

Show me some Republicans who believe in "animal rights."  Show me some Republicans who believe that Global Warming will cause the apocalypse.  Show me some Republicans who are advocating legalized partial-birth abortion.

My opinion:  Ignorance

Human motivation doesn't work that way.  It's about your feelings wanting you to achieve a certain thing.

What's going on emotionally, below all the yelling? 

Not sure that's all too relevant.  They can talk to a shrink or something, meanwhile, they need to smarten the fuck up.  Children are giving birth to children because of this stupidity.  I know because most of my wife's family are (wait for it) Republicans.....and they ALL have kids who are under 18 years of age who have become pregnant.  And wanna guess why?  Because they go to church where they are taught that abstinence is the only solution to birth control.  It's fucking absurd.

I'm not going to talk about your personal circumstances because I don't know about them.  They sound awful though.

It's not because they're Republicans though.  That's the symptom.  What's the underlying cause?

What's the solution. 

[condom picture]

Genius.

How is this best solved? 

Teach young teenagers that abstinence is the best solution but condoms are also helpful.  It's not that difficult.

Right.  But how do we get there?

Why does no one here seem to care?

Plenty of people care.  They're typically called liberals, progressives and/or Democrats or some combination thereof.

So you're saying the Republicans who are screaming about this until they're red in the face don't care?  They're wrong, but lack of caring certainly isn't the issue.

You can draw a line directly from the number of incarcerated people in the US to our refusal to treat the underlying causes of the crimes they commit that put them there.

Interesting.  You seem to think that you can't properly deal with criminals unless you properly address why they're committing crimes.  But with the Republicans, who generally aren't committing robbery, rape, assault, etc., you want them to just change their minds because they're wrong.

At this point, I simply don't take the GOP seriously enough to ask and/or answer these questions. I know that I should, but I can't bring myself to. It's at the point now, for better or for worse (probably for worse), that I read stories like these and my human nature makes me shrug and move on.

Aaannnndddd there it is.  They know you don't take them seriously, and that's why they're pissed.  When the GOP returns to power (they will, if not during this election) they will remember how they were treated and act accordingly.  And we'll all be screwed.

The solution is to stop the condescension now.

This is why I mentioned to Reapsta that imprisonment should be expensive.  We've turned it into a profitable endeavor, and the results are horrifying. 

Private prisons are one of the worst ideas ever.

I say we do it like Norway, jailing criminals in peaceful and relaxing homes.

Please.  I'd rob a bank tomorrow if that were my "punishment."

[Super Dude]

Reapsta, I would love there to be an actually good reason behind it. Unless proven otherwise, out of history I just have to assume that this is pandering to right-wing parents who don't appreciate their kids disagreeing with them.

rumborak

It's not a matter of whether the reason is good or not.  I'm inclined to believe that they're not just wrong, but dangerously wrong.

It's also irrelevant.  You CANNOT simply dismiss, ridicule, and blow off nearly half the country's electorate and not expect them to be enraged.  You're all doing it in this thread and then saying it's the Republicans' fault for having a completely natural reaction.

By talking about what's right and what's wrong, you're falling into the same intellectual limitations the Republicans are.  Abstinence only education is what god would want, so it's right.  No thinking required.  You're saying "The Republicans are acting like idiots, so they must be wrong" and doing the same thing.

Do you think that if you ignore them they'll just go away?  That's what the Republicans tried with the Democrats during Bush's presidency, and they paid for it in 2006 and 2008.

Show me some Democrats that are advocating "Abstinence Only"  I won't hold my breath while you look.

I can do this too:

Show me some Republicans who believe in "animal rights."  Show me some Republicans who believe that Global Warming will cause the apocalypse.  Show me some Republicans who are advocating legalized partial-birth abortion.

My opinion:  Ignorance

Human motivation doesn't work that way.  It's about your feelings wanting you to achieve a certain thing.

What's going on emotionally, below all the yelling? 

Not sure that's all too relevant.  They can talk to a shrink or something, meanwhile, they need to smarten the fuck up.  Children are giving birth to children because of this stupidity.  I know because most of my wife's family are (wait for it) Republicans.....and they ALL have kids who are under 18 years of age who have become pregnant.  And wanna guess why?  Because they go to church where they are taught that abstinence is the only solution to birth control.  It's fucking absurd.

I'm not going to talk about your personal circumstances because I don't know about them.  They sound awful though.

It's not because they're Republicans though.  That's the symptom.  What's the underlying cause?

What's the solution. 

[condom picture]

Genius.

How is this best solved? 

Teach young teenagers that abstinence is the best solution but condoms are also helpful.  It's not that difficult.

Right.  But how do we get there?

Why does no one here seem to care?

Plenty of people care.  They're typically called liberals, progressives and/or Democrats or some combination thereof.

So you're saying the Republicans who are screaming about this until they're red in the face don't care?  They're wrong, but lack of caring certainly isn't the issue.

You can draw a line directly from the number of incarcerated people in the US to our refusal to treat the underlying causes of the crimes they commit that put them there.

Interesting.  You seem to think that you can't properly deal with criminals unless you properly address why they're committing crimes.  But with the Republicans, who generally aren't committing robbery, rape, assault, etc., you want them to just change their minds because they're wrong.

At this point, I simply don't take the GOP seriously enough to ask and/or answer these questions. I know that I should, but I can't bring myself to. It's at the point now, for better or for worse (probably for worse), that I read stories like these and my human nature makes me shrug and move on.

Aaannnndddd there it is.  They know you don't take them seriously, and that's why they're pissed.  When the GOP returns to power (they will, if not during this election) they will remember how they were treated and act accordingly.  And we'll all be screwed.

The solution is to stop the condescension now.

This is why I mentioned to Reapsta that imprisonment should be expensive.  We've turned it into a profitable endeavor, and the results are horrifying. 

Private prisons are one of the worst ideas ever.

I say we do it like Norway, jailing criminals in peaceful and relaxing homes.

Please.  I'd rob a bank tomorrow if that were my "punishment."

I don't know about the others but these I can have for you by midnight tonight. And by the way, Norway has one of the lowest recidivism rates in the world. Correlation does not equal causation, but it doesn't hurt.

https://www.postchronicle.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi?archive=269&num=377872
https://www.stanford.edu/group/progressive/cgi-bin/?p=653
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/07/25/despite-recent-shootings-norway-is-a-low-crime-nation/

[ReaPsTA]

I don't know about the others but these I can have for you by midnight tonight.

Somewhere, there's a Democrat who believes in Abstinence only education.  Probably quite a few in the south actually.

I was trying to mirror what Kirk was doing to point out that it's a very tenuous argument.

And by the way, Norway has one of the lowest recidivism rates in the world. Correlation does not equal causation, but it doesn't hurt.

https://www.postchronicle.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi?archive=269&num=377872
https://www.stanford.edu/group/progressive/cgi-bin/?p=653
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/07/25/despite-recent-shootings-norway-is-a-low-crime-nation/

Norway =/= America

The culture in both countries is completely different.

[Super Dude]

I hate that argument. I hate for example when people say we can't have European-style healthcare because our way of life is different and we shouldn't try to change our way of life. That's like a doctor telling his morbidly obese patient, "If you keep going like this and don't try to eat right or exercise, you're going to die. But that's your way of life, and I don't have the right to tell you to change that."

[ReaPsTA]

I hate that argument. I hate for example when people say we can't have European-style healthcare because our way of life is different and we shouldn't try to change our way of life. That's like a doctor telling his morbidly obese patient, "If you keep going like this and don't try to eat right or exercise, you're going to die. But that's your way of life, and I don't have the right to tell you to change that."

Two things:

 - I sorta know what you mean.  I think it would be a good thing to ask "What is the most desirable way to handle crime in this country" and work toward that rather than being intellectually imposed by any limitations.  But you have to go through the process of figuring out how to make it work in this country rather than just doing it.  For example, you might look at Japan and say "See?  If nobody can own a gun, then the crime rate doesn't go up."  But when you look at the experience of Britain, a country far more comparable to the US, the gun control experience isn't quite so rosy.  In particular, the rate of hot burglaries (burglaries while occupants are home) is far higher than the US.  I'm not saying these things are necessarily correlated, but it's far more likely they are than they aren't.

 - In you doctor example, the doctor doesn't really have the right to tell him that.  It's his life, even if he's probably not living it in the best way.

[El Barto]

I get what you're saying Reap, but can't you accept that there are some people who are just not capable of reason?  In fact, thanks to the last 12 years of politics, I'd say that applies to a pretty big chunk of this here country.  As the system is working down here in Tejas, I can assure you that there just isn't much room for discussion anymore.  Referring back to the state school board, that's one of the most contentious elections we have.  When the Republicans won the majority (and had one appointed chair by then Governor Dumbass), they went on something of a rampage.  Pretty much exactly what you say they'll do in a few years on a larger scale.  It's already happened. The Democratic minority's response was to basically pack up and quit.  No point in going on, from their point of view.  The reason they're now on about higher learning skills is because they can be.  That simple enough?

Understanding why one side thinks the way they do is great in concept, but quite honestly, the answer renders itself moot when the positions have been effectively boiled down to good vs. evil.  When somebody legitimately believes that their way of life is being destroyed, it no longer matters if they're right or not.  They'll act however they can to defend it, and they won't listen to the people they think are attacking it. 

[ReaPsTA]

When somebody legitimately believes that their way of life is being destroyed, it no longer matters if they're right or not.  They'll act however they can to defend it, and they won't listen to the people they think are attacking it.

Stop destroying their way of life then.

I know what scares Christians who are against gay marriage more than anything else.  The thing that haunts the deepest reaches of their brain.  It's this headline, or the equivalent of it:

"9th Circuit Appeals Court Rules That Church Must Hold Gay Marriage Ceremony"

Every person who believes in gay marriage needs to be saying, as loud as humanly possible, "This is about them and their rights, not about you and your way of life.  We don't agree with not letting them get married in your churches, but we'll respect that because it's not our business to say what you can and can't do."

It's not happening.  I don't follow politics closely, but I don't ignore them.  If I'm not hearing this message from the left, then they aren't advocating it loudly enough.

You can go through every hot button issue and see why Democrats/Liberals aren't handling this the right way to at least some degree.

Another example - The narrative of the Obama election becoming about how it was a triumph for hope and change and against racism.  Over 40% of the country didn't vote for Obama.  Right or not, they didn't feel hopeful about what he was doing and weren't interested in the change he was advocating.  And except for a truly small fringe minority, no one consciously voted against him because he was black or held that against him.  They just thought he was the worse candidate.

But, all those people heard was "This was a battle between right and wrong, and you were on the wrong side."  How are they supposed to feel?  I voted Libertarian.  Am I a racist?  Do I want dismay and stagnation?

"But this is politics, shouldn't they put their feelings aside and think rationally?"

That's an impossible thing to ask of any human in any situation.

[El Barto]

When somebody legitimately believes that their way of life is being destroyed, it no longer matters if they're right or not.  They'll act however they can to defend it, and they won't listen to the people they think are attacking it.

Stop destroying their way of life then.

By discouraging critical thinking?

You're overlooking the middlemen in all of this.  While it's all well and good to say that the democrats aren't allaying the fears of the Republicans,  it's impossible to ignore that the people the Republicans trust most keep telling them that the democrats are evil and hell bent to destroy their way of life.  If I say that I don't want churches to be forced to perform homosexual marriages, Rush Limbaugh will say that I do.  Who is Elroy McDerrmott from Sugarland, Texas going to believe?  Then you've got the elected assholes themselves.  You think Myth can get elected by suggesting that the democrats are actually very reasonable, but just have different ways of doing things?  No. His election is a moral imperative to undo the damage they continue to do.

"But this is politics, shouldn't they put their feelings aside and think rationally?"

That's an impossible thing to ask of any human in any situation.

Directed at a person who time and time again, in this very forum, has demonstrated a willingness to take up positions outside of his personal beliefs,  because reason and emotion rarely see eye to eye.  The ability to see things from beyond your own narrow view is a skill that I see tremendous value in, and is exactly what scares the bejeezus out of the people who seek to discourage it down here. 

[hefdaddy42]

When somebody legitimately believes that their way of life is being destroyed, it no longer matters if they're right or not.  They'll act however they can to defend it, and they won't listen to the people they think are attacking it.

Stop destroying their way of life then.

I know what scares Christians who are against gay marriage more than anything else.  The thing that haunts the deepest reaches of their brain.  It's this headline, or the equivalent of it:

"9th Circuit Appeals Court Rules That Church Must Hold Gay Marriage Ceremony"

Every person who believes in gay marriage needs to be saying, as loud as humanly possible, "This is about them and their rights, not about you and your way of life.  We don't agree with not letting them get married in your churches, but we'll respect that because it's not our business to say what you can and can't do."

It's not happening.  I don't follow politics closely, but I don't ignore them.  If I'm not hearing this message from the left, then they aren't advocating it loudly enough.

Are you serious?

[Super Dude]

I hate that argument. I hate for example when people say we can't have European-style healthcare because our way of life is different and we shouldn't try to change our way of life. That's like a doctor telling his morbidly obese patient, "If you keep going like this and don't try to eat right or exercise, you're going to die. But that's your way of life, and I don't have the right to tell you to change that."

Two things:

 - I sorta know what you mean.  I think it would be a good thing to ask "What is the most desirable way to handle crime in this country" and work toward that rather than being intellectually imposed by any limitations.  But you have to go through the process of figuring out how to make it work in this country rather than just doing it.  For example, you might look at Japan and say "See?  If nobody can own a gun, then the crime rate doesn't go up."  But when you look at the experience of Britain, a country far more comparable to the US, the gun control experience isn't quite so rosy.  In particular, the rate of hot burglaries (burglaries while occupants are home) is far higher than the US.  I'm not saying these things are necessarily correlated, but it's far more likely they are than they aren't.

 - In you doctor example, the doctor doesn't really have the right to tell him that.  It's his life, even if he's probably not living it in the best way.

...What? Forget the political discussion, that's a doctor's job. They can't make you do anything, but you'd be a very bad doctor if you didn't recommend a change of lifestyle.

[ReaPsTA]

By discouraging critical thinking?

Nah.  It's like an argument in a relationship.  The argument is never about who left the milk out.  It's about a thousand different other things.  Even thinking about this issue is a red herring in a sense.

You're overlooking the middlemen in all of this.  While it's all well and good to say that the democrats aren't allaying the fears of the Republicans,  it's impossible to ignore that the people the Republicans trust most keep telling them that the democrats are evil and hell bent to destroy their way of life.  If I say that I don't want churches to be forced to perform homosexual marriages, Rush Limbaugh will say that I do.  Who is Elroy McDerrmott from Sugarland, Texas going to believe?  Then you've got the elected assholes themselves.  You think Myth can get elected by suggesting that the democrats are actually very reasonable, but just have different ways of doing things?  No. His election is a moral imperative to undo the damage they continue to do.

I've got no answer to the Rush thing.

The politician part is easier.  You can have the required emotional tenor of a crusade without actually saying too much of anything.  You might want the ACA replaced with a law that still does many of the same things.  But, if you say "I want the ACA to be repealed" with enough vigor then the message still carries.  And you're not lying.

Directed at a person who time and time again, in this very forum, has demonstrated a willingness to take up positions outside of his personal beliefs,  because reason and emotion rarely see eye to eye.  The ability to see things from beyond your own narrow view is a skill that I see tremendous value in, and is exactly what scares the bejeezus out of the people who seek to discourage it down here.

It's not that rational thinking is a bad thing.  It should be encouraged.

But if the emotional part of your brain wants to take the wheel, then it cannot be stopped, period.  It will literally make you unable to see reality to get its way if it must.  You're only as rational as your mind lets you be.

Telling people not to be emotional is a useless waste of time.  It's more worthwhile to avoid the emotional triggers in the first place.

...What? Forget the political discussion, that's a doctor's job. They can't make you do anything, but you'd be a very bad doctor if you didn't recommend a change of lifestyle.

The doctor should recommend that change, yes.  But is it the doctor's place to force the person to make those changes?

Are you serious?

I know this from first-hand knowledge.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I'm not even sure what's being argued about anymore.

[Super Dude]

Here's those pro-environment conservatives you ordered:

https://conservamerica.org/
https://www.facebook.com/ConservativesForTheEnvironment
https://www.climateconservative.org/

Yes, I realize it's not the same thing as Republicans for the environment (not exactly, anyway) but it's a start. And certainly disproves your theory.

[ReaPsTA]

Yes, I realize it's not the same thing as Republicans for the environment (not exactly, anyway) but it's a start. And certainly disproves your theory.

I never seriously meant that.  I was trying to say something stupid on purpose.

That said, the first and third links were interesting.  I wish the first one had a list of positions they take.

[hefdaddy42]

Are you serious?

I know this from first-hand knowledge.

The government has never forced any American church ever to marry a couple that they didn't want to marry.  If you know people who are worried about that, then you know some stupid people who need to get their shit together.

[ReaPsTA]

The government has never forced any American church ever to marry a couple that they didn't want to marry.  If you know people who are worried about that, then you know some stupid people who need to get their shit together.

Isn't this the same kind of venom that the Republicans are (rightfully) criticized for?

[El Barto]

Nah, that was pretty qualified.  Some conservatives believe that nonsense, and they are therefore stupid and with separated shit.  The venomous equivalent would be "stoopid libtards think the government should force churches to marry homos.  Stoopid libtards!"  One's directed at a narrow group, and the other's a blanket statement.

[ReaPsTA]

Now look where this thread has gone.  "Well of course it makes sense that he'd act hateful in this situation.  They earned it."

You all wonder why there's such political bitterness in this country as you literally embody it.  Come on now.

[ClairvoyantCat]

lol

[hefdaddy42]

Now look where this thread has gone.  "Well of course it makes sense that he'd act hateful in this situation.  They earned it."

You all wonder why there's such political bitterness in this country as you literally embody it.  Come on now.

I don't wonder at all.  It's because a lot of conservatives believe a lot of things that aren't true.  Like this example, or that Obama is a Socialist/Communist/not born here.  People like that can't be reasoned with.  People like that use bitterness as their argument.  I simply don't see that kind of behavior on the liberal side. 

[MondayMorningLunatic]

I don't wonder at all.  It's because a lot of conservatives believe a lot of things that aren't true.  Like this example, or that Obama is a Socialist/Communist/not born here.  People like that can't be reasoned with.  People like that use bitterness as their argument.  I simply don't see that kind of behavior on the liberal side.

Obama's socialism is pretty well-established. According to former roommate John Drew, Obama was an "ardent Marxist-Leninist" during his stay at Occidental College. Obama associated with Marxist professors and visited communist Frank Marshall Davis three times a week, as stated in his autobiography. Frank Marshall Davis may even be Obama's real father, as alleged in a new documentary. Continuing, Obama's associations with communists Bill Ayers, Saul Alinsky, and Bernardine Dohrn are well known and he participated in the far-left Chicago New Party and Progressive Chicago in the 90s. Obama has now surrounded himself with socialist/communists, including Van Jones, Cass Sunstein, and Rick Bookstaber who defends the idea of class warfare on his blog. And when you have a president saying things like "the free market doesn't work" and "I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody" it's plain as day.

"There can be no doubt that Obama is a socialist in the European reform-Marxism tradition."
- Forbes Magazine

Also hefdaddy, don't forget that just a few years ago, liberals were extremely bitter towards George W. Bush, as they should have been. Obama supporters just can't figure out that they're the new Bush supporters.

[kirksnosehair]

I'm not going to talk about your personal circumstances because I don't know about them.  They sound awful though.

It's not because they're Republicans though.  That's the symptom.  What's the underlying cause?

You're right, it's not because THEY'RE Republicans, it's because their parents are highly conservative Christians.  (they just happen to be Republicans) But the underlying cause IS because they come from conservative religious families who have indoctrinated their children into their culture and beliefs from the beginning, which includes a very conservative Christian worldview (remember, these are kids, all of them are between 15 and 20 years of age).  And what do you think these kids have been taught?  They were NOT taught about contraception, because astonishingly, their parents and their peers see it as a "sin" so they were taught to "not have sex" out of wedlock and that is the only option they were given. 


It's worked really, really well.   My wife has 4 sisters.  Those 4 sisters have produced 13 children collectively.  Of those 13 children, 4 are girls.  Of those 4, only 1 is an adult by legal standards (she's just recently turned 18) and of those 4 girls -these are my wife's nieces- they have now produced a whopping 14 babies.  That's 14 infants (our great nieces and nephews, the oldest is 2) that have absolutely no chance in life.  That's 14 kids who have parents that are either on public assistance, living in shelters, or living in their parents' basements and unable to care for them in any meaningful way.  The underlying cause of all of this is an extremely conservative religious upbringing that taught these mothers that the only way to prevent pregnancy is to avoid sex. 


Now contrast that to my wife's brother.  He's not a religious person or a conservative person and he has two daughters, both of whom are on the pill.  (e.g. contraception) and guess how many kids they have?  None.   One of them is in college studying to be a nurse, the other just finished business school and is starting a job as a legal secretary in a few weeks.  They both have a good chance at making a nice life for themselves, the others who have all those kids....their lives are over.  They're all teenagers and they're "raising"    children.  Kids having kids.  All because their parents wouldn't put them on the damned pill.  It's ridiculous. 

[ReaPsTA]

So why are they afraid of sex?  Because the bible says so?  Please.  The interpretation of the Bible comes after the personal biases.

[hefdaddy42]

I don't wonder at all.  It's because a lot of conservatives believe a lot of things that aren't true.  Like this example, or that Obama is a Socialist/Communist/not born here.  People like that can't be reasoned with.  People like that use bitterness as their argument.  I simply don't see that kind of behavior on the liberal side.

Obama's socialism is pretty well-established. According to former roommate John Drew, Obama was an "ardent Marxist-Leninist" during his stay at Occidental College. Obama associated with Marxist professors and visited communist Frank Marshall Davis three times a week, as stated in his autobiography. Frank Marshall Davis may even be Obama's real father, as alleged in a new documentary. Continuing, Obama's associations with communists Bill Ayers, Saul Alinsky, and Bernardine Dohrn are well known and he participated in the far-left Chicago New Party and Progressive Chicago in the 90s. Obama has now surrounded himself with socialist/communists, including Van Jones, Cass Sunstein, and Rick Bookstaber who defends the idea of class warfare on his blog. And when you have a president saying things like "the free market doesn't work" and "I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody" it's plain as day.

"There can be no doubt that Obama is a socialist in the European reform-Marxism tradition."
- Forbes Magazine

Yes, he has talked with many people, including some who have non-capitalist tendencies.  So what?  None of his actual political activities are Socialist or Communist.  In fact, actual Socialists and Communists pretty much laugh at this proposition.  But don't let that stop the conspiracy theorists.

Also hefdaddy, don't forget that just a few years ago, liberals were extremely bitter towards George W. Bush, as they should have been. Obama supporters just can't figure out that they're the new Bush supporters.

They were bitter towards Bush because of things he actually said or did, not because of things they believed about him that were compete fabrications.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Out of curiosity: Has the left ever said anything about George W. Bush as ridiculous as some of the things that are said about Obama? I'm talking about things like "Obama is a Muslim" or "Obama is from Africa".

[ReaPsTA]

Now look where this thread has gone.  "Well of course it makes sense that he'd act hateful in this situation.  They earned it."

You all wonder why there's such political bitterness in this country as you literally embody it.  Come on now.

I don't wonder at all.  It's because a lot of conservatives believe a lot of things that aren't true.  Like this example, or that Obama is a Socialist/Communist/not born here.  People like that can't be reasoned with.  People like that use bitterness as their argument.  I simply don't see that kind of behavior on the liberal side.

Three thoughts occur here:

 - Reason isn't really the issue.  If people like that can't be reasoned with, then another means of communication must be employed.

 - Perception is reality in politics.  Not reality.

 - I think calling these kinds of claims completely untrue is a bit of a stretch.  For instance, remember the Catholic Birth Control thing I mentioned earlier?  Maybe Obama isn't waging a war on religion, but it's clear that he doesn't really give a crap about what more conservative religious groups in this country think.  Also, if we look up the first definition in the Dictionary for socialism:

a theory or system of social organization  that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

Doesn't this sound even a little bit with how Obama is working with big businesses who need government assistance?  At least in theory, the government is the community's representative.  Isn't any business regulation socialism to some degree?

Out of curiosity: Has the left ever said anything about George W. Bush as ridiculous as some of the things that are said about Obama? I'm talking about things like "Obama is a Muslim" or "Obama is from Africa".

That he stole the 2000 election?

[snapple]

I think Romney is going to win in 2012. [citation needed]

I don't have any real reason as to why, just a feeling.

[MondayMorningLunatic]

]None of his actual political activities are Socialist or Communist.

How about socialized medicine and the bailouts?

They were bitter towards Bush because of things he actually said or did, not because of things they believed about him that were compete fabrications.

Here's something that's most certainly not a fabrication: Obama said he was going to repeal the Patriot Act but actually voted to extend it. Where oh where is the liberal outrage? People get too caught up in the partisanship to realize that Obama's just another puppet president working for a corrupt Establishment- soon to be re-elected because the Republicans nominated a blithering idiot.

[eric42434224]

How about socialized medicine and the bailouts?

Medicaid and Medicare are socialized medicine and have been around for quite a while.
So have bailouts.

[Super Dude]

What socialized medicine?

[ReaPsTA]

I think Romney is going to win in 2012. [citation needed]

I don't have any real reason as to why, just a feeling.

Interesting.  I don't see how Romney can win.  This is Obama's election to lose.  What he's done during his first term is kinda ingenious.  Through the bailouts and the ACA, he put the power to solve societal problems in the hands of the government.  Of course, because it's the government, none of these solutions are good long term and thus the government needs to keep being involved in the problem solving.  He also handled the Republicans perfectly.  He took multiple tactical losses to create the illusion of compromise while making no major strategic concessions.  This also lulled the Republicans into thinking they were making progress, giving them the illusion of having permission to do nuttier and nuttier things.

Now, Obama can say "The Republicans want to take away your healthcare, affordable school loans, and jobs."  And he's not wrong.  As Jeff Goldblum would say, "checkmate."

[El Barto]

Out of curiosity: Has the left ever said anything about George W. Bush as ridiculous as some of the things that are said about Obama? I'm talking about things like "Obama is a Muslim" or "Obama is from Africa".

I said he was a psychopath and sported significant Oedipal issues, although I'd hardly consider that ridiculous.

That he stole the 2000 election?

Yeah, it's unfortunate he gets blamed for all of those voters who intentionally disenfranchised themselves. 

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Doesn't this sound even a little bit with how Obama is working with big businesses who need government assistance?  At least in theory, the government is the community's representative.  Isn't any business regulation socialism to some degree?

I don't think that makes it fair to call him a socialist though. There's a huge difference between "Obama does some things that are socialist to a degree" and "Obama is a socialist".

Out of curiosity: Has the left ever said anything about George W. Bush as ridiculous as some of the things that are said about Obama? I'm talking about things like "Obama is a Muslim" or "Obama is from Africa".

That he stole the 2000 election?

Is that something that was talked about as much in as the "Obama is a Muslim" thing? I'm not being confrontational - I really don't know.

[kirksnosehair]

Anyone who calls Obama a socialist really needs to learn more about how socialism actually works, not just the dictionary definitions.


This post from a person who would absolutely LOVE IT if Obama WERE a socialist.  Unfortunately, he's not even close.

[ReaPsTA]

Is that something that was talked about as much in as the "Obama is a Muslim" thing? I'm not being confrontational - I really don't know.

I remember lots of anger and talk about it back in the day.

Anyone who calls Obama a socialist really needs to learn more about how socialism actually works, not just the dictionary definitions.

This post from a person who would absolutely LOVE IT if Obama WERE a socialist.  Unfortunately, he's not even close.

How does socialism work then?  What would he be doing that he's not doing?

EDIT:  Missed this:

Doesn't this sound even a little bit with how Obama is working with big businesses who need government assistance?  At least in theory, the government is the community's representative.  Isn't any business regulation socialism to some degree?

I don't think that makes it fair to call him a socialist though. There's a huge difference between "Obama does some things that are socialist to a degree" and "Obama is a socialist".

What I'm trying to suggest though is that the claim isn't without basis in reality.  People see socialism in Obama's policies and bring it up.  They're told that they're being idiots.  Then they see more socialism, and are again told they are being idiots.  When you're prevented from having any logical recourse, you turn to name calling.  It's like when a parent tells their child "you're going to do it because I told you so."  When you tell them they're not allowed to think logically, they eventually don't bother.

This dynamic is happening in American politics.  The left is trying to say it's beyond criticism, which is part of why the right has given up on trying to rationally offer any.