Election 2012

[El Barto]

I actually don't mind the idea of corporal punishment in society.  Jail is the dumbest idea ever.  It's expensive, and prisoners have a habit of becoming bitter and picking up bad habits because they live around other criminals.  Corporal punishment is quick and sends the message.

But schools should have no part of this.  It creates a not-so-underlying adversarial relationship between the kids and the school.

Hard to argue that jails and prisons are poorly thought out, but the cost factor is a benefit, not a detraction.  One of the problems with corporal punishment is that it's free, and therefore far too easy to administer cavalierly.  Punishment should reflect the cost to society that it actually entails. 

As for it's application in schools, you can take my word that it's not very effective beyond the fear factor.  If you've never experienced it, then it's somewhat worrisome.  Afterward, it's pretty much a joke.  This isn't Singapore. 

The position causing the most controversy, however, is the statement that they oppose the teaching of "higher order thinking skills" -- a curriculum which strives to encourage critical thinking -- arguing that it might challenge "student's fixed beliefs" and undermine "parental authority."

ಠ_ಠ

Yeah, all those tinfoil hat types who've been saying that the upper class is just looking to create mindless drones are looking much more legitimate. 

[ReaPsTA]

...but the cost factor is a benefit, not a detraction.  One of the problems with corporal punishment is that it's free, and therefore far too easy to administer cavalierly.  Punishment should reflect the cost to society that it actually entails. 

Interesting.

As for it's application in schools, you can take my word that it's not very effective beyond the fear factor.  If you've never experienced it, then it's somewhat worrisome.  Afterward, it's pretty much a joke.  This isn't Singapore. 

Agreed.

[rumborak]

The position causing the most controversy, however, is the statement that they oppose the teaching of "higher order thinking skills" -- a curriculum which strives to encourage critical thinking -- arguing that it might challenge "student's fixed beliefs" and undermine "parental authority."

In fairness, this could be a trap.  Just because you name a class "higher order thinking skills" doesn't mean it actually teaches any.

Might be my liberal alarm bells, but to me it reeks heavily of attempting to counteract the inevitable outcomes of understanding stuff like evolution etc. I wouldn't be surprised if kids came home to their parents and said "No mom, the Earth isn't 6000 years old" and thus the parents try to put the kabosh on those dangerous thoughts. After all, it's easier to change the curriculum than your own preconceptions.

rumborak

[ReaPsTA]

Might be my liberal alarm bells, but to me it reeks heavily of attempting to counteract the inevitable outcomes of understanding stuff like evolution etc. I wouldn't be surprised if kids came home to their parents and said "No mom, the Earth isn't 6000 years old" and thus the parents try to put the kabosh on those dangerous thoughts.

rumborak

You're reading a Huffington Post article.  That's what they want you to presume.

[rumborak]

Of course. Doesn't mean the notion is necessarily wrong.

rumborak

[ReaPsTA]

Of course. Doesn't mean the notion is necessarily wrong.

rumborak

Of course.  But, and I know I'm being a bit of a douchebag, I find it a bit ironic that the base reaction of this board is "OMG, the evil Republicans are going to stop teaching critical thinking skills so they can indoctrinate creationism," a response that shows a lack of the critical thinking skills that are supposedly so valued.

[El Barto]

The position causing the most controversy, however, is the statement that they oppose the teaching of "higher order thinking skills" -- a curriculum which strives to encourage critical thinking -- arguing that it might challenge "student's fixed beliefs" and undermine "parental authority."

In fairness, this could be a trap.  Just because you name a class "higher order thinking skills" doesn't mean it actually teaches any.

As a lifelong Texan, I can assure you that logical and critical thinking scare the living hell out of plenty of people down here.  Lots of people want things to be simple and clear-cut.  When others start viewing things from perspectives out of the norm, it makes them highly uncomfortable.  Basically,  when you're happy with your preconceptions, you really don't want people being encouraged to apply a critical mind to them. 

[Sigz]

Just for the record here's the actual text, though I'm not sure it's any clearer:

Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.

[El Barto]

Yup.  Sounds just like the sorts of people around me. 

[ReaPsTA]

As a lifelong Texan, I can assure you that logical and critical thinking scare the living hell out of plenty of people down here.  Lots of people want things to be simple and clear-cut.  When others start viewing things from perspectives out of the norm, it makes them highly uncomfortable.  Basically,  when you're happy with your preconceptions, you really don't want people being encouraged to apply a critical mind to them.

I'd imagine.  I'm not saying these classes are being opposed for the right reasons.

But does anyone know what is even taught in these classes?  Does anyone care?  Or is it better to just keep buying into the narrative of "Republicans try to institutionalize ignorance again, and we're going to criticize this because it makes us feel good"?

[TL]

I actually don't mind the idea of corporal punishment in society.  Jail is the dumbest idea ever.  It's expensive, and prisoners have a habit of becoming bitter and picking up bad habits because they live around other criminals.  Corporal punishment is quick and sends the message.

Except that corporal punishment usually ISN'T quick (those sentenced to it are often on death row for years, or even decades), and statistically, it isn't an effective deterrent.

Yes, the American prison system is horribly broken, but killing more people isn't the solution. Greater emphasis on rehabilitation when possible is a better route.

[ReaPsTA]

I actually don't mind the idea of corporal punishment in society.  Jail is the dumbest idea ever.  It's expensive, and prisoners have a habit of becoming bitter and picking up bad habits because they live around other criminals.  Corporal punishment is quick and sends the message.

Except that corporal punishment usually ISN'T quick (those sentenced to it are often on death row for years, or even decades), and statistically, it isn't an effective deterrent.

Yes, the American prison system is horribly broken, but killing more people isn't the solution. Greater emphasis on rehabilitation when possible is a better route.

You're thinking of capital punishment.  Corporal punishment is physical discipline like caning.

[El Barto]

As a lifelong Texan, I can assure you that logical and critical thinking scare the living hell out of plenty of people down here.  Lots of people want things to be simple and clear-cut.  When others start viewing things from perspectives out of the norm, it makes them highly uncomfortable.  Basically,  when you're happy with your preconceptions, you really don't want people being encouraged to apply a critical mind to them.

I'd imagine.  I'm not saying these classes are being opposed for the right reasons.

But does anyone know what is even taught in these classes?  Does anyone care?  Or is it better to just keep buying into the narrative of "Republicans try to institutionalize ignorance again, and we're going to criticize this because it makes us feel good"?

I gather we're not talking about specific classes, higher reasoning 101, but rather methods and practices of teaching a variety of subjects. 

[ReaPsTA]

I gather we're not talking about specific classes, higher reasoning 101, but rather methods and practices of teaching a variety of subjects.

I Googled searched for it and after looking through four pages of results talking about the news story, this was the only thing on it I found, and it's not even helpful:

Higher order chart

Basically, if I want to read a news story that uses storytelling conventions to manipulate me into having an opinion, I can do that.  But, if I want to actually learn about the issue, I can't.  Charming.

[rumborak]

Should we maybe wait for confirmation from other news stations? Yes.
Have certain states' GOPs declared open war on "new thoughts"? Yes.

rumborak

[Rathma]

itt Reapsta fights everybody

[ReaPsTA]

Should we maybe wait for confirmation from other news stations? Yes.
Have certain states' GOPs declared open war on "new thoughts"? Yes.

rumborak

We know the story's true.

What I'm saying is, why so quick to go with the narrative of "GOP acts dumb again."  Why are they doing this?  What's going on emotionally, below all the yelling?  What's the solution.  How is this best solved?  Why does no one here seem to care?

[rumborak]

Reapsta, I would love there to be an actually good reason behind it. Unless proven otherwise, out of history I just have to assume that this is pandering to right-wing parents who don't appreciate their kids disagreeing with them.

rumborak

[El Barto]

itt Reapsta fights everybody

A pleasant change of pace.  He's actually one of the better proponents of his [somewhat whacky] point of view. 

I gather we're not talking about specific classes, higher reasoning 101, but rather methods and practices of teaching a variety of subjects.

I Googled searched for it and after looking through four pages of results talking about the news story, this was the only thing on it I found, and it's not even helpful:

Higher order chart

Basically, if I want to read a news story that uses storytelling conventions to manipulate me into having an opinion, I can do that.  But, if I want to actually learn about the issue, I can't.  Charming.

Something you should keep in mind is that this sort of thing has been going on 8 or so years down here.  The Texas State Board of Education has been quite a battleground for a while now.  It has become largely politicized, with a fair amount of turmoil.  The history of which involves a good deal of whitewashing history and science to better fit a Republican agenda.  While the newest allegations regarding what they call higher order learning aren't real clear as of yet, there is a great deal of easily verifiable history pointing towards the attitude that we're decrying. 

edit: and what's going on emotionally, below all the yelling, is a grassroots movement to accomplish what I referred to earlier.  Creating kiddos who don't ask questions and believe what they're told to believe. 

[hefdaddy42]

What I'm saying is, why so quick to go with the narrative of "GOP acts dumb again."  Why are they doing this?  What's going on emotionally, below all the yelling?  What's the solution.  How is this best solved?  Why does no one here seem to care?

It is conservative, religion-based bureacracy.  That's the way it always happens.

[kirksnosehair]

Relevant:

The United States has less than 5 percent of the world's population. But it has almost a quarter of the world's prisoners.

[rumborak]

That is fuuuuucked up.

rumborak

[Implode]

Fascinating. I'd like to see some other variables so we can get the best idea of why that's the case. Are our citizenz more rebelious, or are our laws too strict? Are most of those imprisoned there for major offenses or some minor stuff? And then how is our crime rate compared to other countries where less of the population is imprisoned?

I have a feeling I know the answer to all these questions.

[kirksnosehair]

What I'm saying is, why so quick to go with the narrative of "GOP acts dumb again."

Show me some Democrats that are advocating "Abstinence Only"  I won't hold my breath while you look.

 Why are they doing this? 

My opinion:  Ignorance

What's going on emotionally, below all the yelling? 

Not sure that's all too relevant.  They can talk to a shrink or something, meanwhile, they need to smarten the fuck up.  Children are giving birth to children because of this stupidity.  I know because most of my wife's family are (wait for it) Republicans.....and they ALL have kids who are under 18 years of age who have become pregnant.  And wanna guess why?  Because they go to church where they are taught that abstinence is the only solution to birth control.  It's fucking absurd.

What's the solution. 

How is this best solved? 

Teach young teenagers that abstinence is the best solution but condoms are also helpful.  It's not that difficult.

Why does no one here seem to care?

Plenty of people care.  They're typically called liberals, progressives and/or Democrats or some combination thereof

[Scheavo]

Fascinating. I'd like to see some other variables so we can get the best idea of why that's the case. Are our citizenz more rebelious, or are our laws too strict? Are most of those imprisoned there for major offenses or some minor stuff? And then how is our crime rate compared to other countries where less of the population is imprisoned?

I have a feeling I know the answer to all these questions.

~50% of it is for non-violent drug related crimes, mostly marijuana.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Should we maybe wait for confirmation from other news stations? Yes.
Have certain states' GOPs declared open war on "new thoughts"? Yes.

rumborak

We know the story's true.

What I'm saying is, why so quick to go with the narrative of "GOP acts dumb again."  Why are they doing this?  What's going on emotionally, below all the yelling?  What's the solution.  How is this best solved?  Why does no one here seem to care?

At this point, I simply don't take the GOP seriously enough to ask and/or answer these questions. I know that I should, but I can't bring myself to. It's at the point now, for better or for worse (probably for worse), that I read stories like these and my human nature makes me shrug and move on.

[El Barto]

Fascinating. I'd like to see some other variables so we can get the best idea of why that's the case. Are our citizenz more rebelious, or are our laws too strict? Are most of those imprisoned there for major offenses or some minor stuff? And then how is our crime rate compared to other countries where less of the population is imprisoned?

I have a feeling I know the answer to all these questions.

~50% of it is for non-violent drug related crimes, mostly marijuana.

Doubtful.  Here in Texas pot doesn't even make the top 30.  Burglary is the runaway winner.  Here's the rundown on Texas prisoners:

BURG HABIT    40019
AGG ROBBERY    22370
DWI    16498
AGG ASLT    13708
POSS C/S COCAINE    13572
AGG SEX ASLT CHILD    12816
ROBBERY    12684
POSS WIT DEL C/S COCAINE    10815
POSS C/S COCAINE    10110
INDECENCY W/CHILD    9489
BURG BLDG    9232
MURDER    7149
ROBBERY    7016
POSS C/S COCAINE    6304
POSS FIREARM BY FELON    5894
DEL CONT SUBS    5629
AGG ASLT    5582
MURDER    5580
AGG ROBBERY W/DEADLY WPN    5279
AGG SEX ASLT    5074
POSS C/S    4760
SEX ASLT CHILD    4652
AGG SEX ASLT    4195
UNAUTH USE MTR VEH    3753
AGG SEX ASLT CHILD    3435
DEL C/S COCAINE    3280
SEX ASLT    3232
BURG VEH    3135
THEFT    3069
AGG ASLT    3048

To address Implode's questions, I don't think our laws are necessarily to strict.  Our sentencing is.  People here have a real hard-on for punishment, so the answer to any crime is "throw him in prison" and they'll just keep building more jails to accommodate them.  A big part of that is fueled by a very real prison industrial complex (sorry, I hate calling things X-Y complexes, but it applies here).  Since we've privatized the prison industry, there's money to be made from every person sent up the river.  The Man pays you X amount for each one you take in, and you get to pimp him out to Olan Mills as cheap telemarketing labor. 

Other countries prefer treatment to incarceration.  Despite the fact that it works, we prefer to ridicule that notion, supported with bullshit numbers thrown out by people with a vested interest, financial or personal, in seeing people locked up. 

This is why I mentioned to Reapsta that imprisonment should be expensive.  We've turned it into a profitable endeavor, and the results are horrifying. 

[Implode]

Good points, Barto.

It's probably true what you say, people in the US are more revenge/imprisonment in general. Do you think there are more people on average in the US willing to commit crimes like robbery and burglery? And if so, do you think that has a correlation to my first statement? Are Americans generally meaner people? Or at least more willing to make a situation better for themselves without considering the effects on others?

[El Barto]

Outside of the gang-banger culture, I don't think so.  In all societies, people rob banks.  People kill their SO's lover.  People commit insurance fraud.  People drive faster than the posted limit.  What he have is that aforementioned gangster mentality with it's corresponding glorification of criminality, and a prohibition on drugs which creates secondary crime that's probably not a factor in other countries.  While burglary makes up the overwhelming percentage of Texas prisoners, it's probably a safe bet that most of those burglaries are drug related. 

[kirksnosehair]

You can draw a line directly from the number of incarcerated people in the US to our refusal to treat the underlying causes of the crimes they commit that put them there.


The fact is, almost every prisoner in our jails and prisons is either a drug addict, an alcoholic or has some other psychological or emotional problems that contributed to the commission of the crimes that put them there.  But we don't treat them, we just build more prisons.


But as El Barto points out, the incarceration of our citizens is a hugely profitable venture so there is very little motivation to address the underlying cause of why we lead the world in prison population.  We just keep building more prisons.  California, for example, builds a new state prison every year. 


This problem isn't going away anytime soon.  What really exacerbates it in a big way is privatization.  We've got to take profit out of penal system. 

[Super Dude]

I say we do it like Norway, jailing criminals in peaceful and relaxing homes.

[rumborak]

I have a really hard time believing that 13,000 people have sexually assaulted Texan children to warrant incarceration. Which seems to corroborate EB's notion of being "tough on crime".

rumborak

[El Barto]

I have a really hard time believing that 13,000 people have sexually assaulted Texan children to warrant incarceration. Which seems to corroborate EB's notion of being "tough on crime".

rumborak

The definition of AGG SEX ASLT CHILD is pretty clear and unambiguous.  We're not talking statutory rape for nailing your 16 year old girlfriend here.  Those are the real deal.

I figure the reason the number seems high is because that's a list of the current population as of 2010, and not the convictions for that year.  If the average sentence is 15 years or so, then that's 15 year's worth of kiddy-diddlers. 

[Shine]

Not sure if this has been posted in this thread before, but it's worthy of discussion. Political Compass puts all the Presidential candidates on an x-y graph and does a summary of them.

https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2012

Earlier in the year they had all the Republican hopefuls on there as well, I believe Ron Paul was on the same X (left-right) axis as Gary Johnson, but slightly lower on the Z (towards libertarian).

If you believe this is accurate, it shows just how similar the two major parties are.

[jsem]

Political Compass sucks. It's better than "left-right", but really you need something three-dimensional instead.

@those texas stats:
A lot will be gang related and thus drug related anyway. Possession, weapons charges, murder, assault etc - all part of the game.

That's why legalizing marijuana won't solve much. Plus, so much crime goes on in the prisons, and many people who are locked up for possession charges just turn worse because of their stay inside. It's better when the crime is kept inside the prisons and not on the streets, but it leaks when people return on paroles and what not.