Election 2012

[Breaking All Illusions]

I have no idea why people vote. Our votes don't matter. No one votes. I think that people in high levels of government choose the president. They are in it for themseleves and never for the people. People want to give Obama a break because it is hard to clean up the mess made by Bush, but people don't understand that all of this is planned that way. They want things a mess so we are easier to control. They steal all of our money, they steal all of our resources, they kill millions of us through senseless wars and poisons in many things we consume. Is this really a system by the people for the people or are they in it for their own self intrest? Politicans are power hunger, they always want power, the more we support them, the more power they have and the more they control us. I think all of us need to unite and figure out a way to get rid of this government and make sure it never comes back.

It is a conspiracy. What did I say that was wrong, what did I say that was not obvious?

[Breaking All Illusions]

All politicians want is power, we have to break this cycle by getting rid of them and putting new people in power.

The new people will eventually end up like the last ones.

[Adami]

All politicians want is power, we have to break this cycle by getting rid of them and putting new people in power.

The new people will eventually end up like the last ones.

Ah if only life were so black and white. Quite easy to externalize all problems, isn't it?

[rumborak]

There is a strange allure for some people to consider themselves powerless, at the mercy of outsiders and higher forces, to the point that they will prefer explanations that will give them that feeling over alternative, more benign explanations. Never understood it.

rumborak

[TL]

@Breaking All Illusions

The whole 'your vote doesn't matter, why even bother' thing is just bullshit. Straight up.

I could give you dozens of examples from the last federal election here in Canada where a handful of votes in a few ridings could have seen a completely different party in power right now.

The 2000 US presidential election was ultimately decided by a few hundred votes in Florida.

There are also down-ticket races. There's congressional and senate elections. State senate elections. There are primary elections for most of these things. There are local level elections where your vote has a HUGE impact. There are ballot measures. With almost all of these things, there are people counting on low voter turnout so that they can rally their base and win. If people DID fucking vote, that wouldn't be a reliable strategy. Even better if people bother being even mildly informed first.

So yeah, whenever a first year college student acts like they've stumbled upon this whole notion of 'why bother voting', and acts all superior because of it, it's annoying. It's not profound. You're not the first to have this notion, but every person who has is completely wrong. It's a lazy cop out. "Well, I don't want to bother actually doing anything to try and fix the system, so I'll just pretend it can't be fixed".

[Super Dude]

@Breaking All Illusions

The whole 'your vote doesn't matter, why even bother' thing is just bullshit. Straight up.

I could give you dozens of examples from the last federal election here in Canada where a handful of votes in a few ridings could have seen a completely different party in power right now.

The 2000 US presidential election was ultimately decided by a few hundred votes in Florida.

There are also down-ticket races. There's congressional and senate elections. State senate elections. There are primary elections for most of these things. There are local level elections where your vote has a HUGE impact. There are ballot measures. With almost all of these things, there are people counting on low voter turnout so that they can rally their base and win. If people DID fucking vote, that wouldn't be a reliable strategy. Even better if people bother being even mildly informed first.

So yeah, whenever a first year college student acts like they've stumbled upon this whole notion of 'why bother voting', and acts all superior because of it, it's annoying. It's not profound. You're not the first to have this notion, but every person who has is completely wrong. It's a lazy cop out. "Well, I don't want to bother actually doing anything to try and fix the system, so I'll just pretend it can't be fixed".

The two big reasons American politics are messed up, ladies and gentlemen.

[rumborak]

Heard a nice quote from a German politician yesterday:

"There is no rocking chair when it comes to politics. As long as the head is clear you are responsible. "

rumborak

[kirksnosehair]

@Breaking All Illusions

The whole 'your vote doesn't matter, why even bother' thing is just bullshit. Straight up.

I could give you dozens of examples from the last federal election here in Canada where a handful of votes in a few ridings could have seen a completely different party in power right now.

The 2000 US presidential election was ultimately decided by a few hundred votes in Florida.

Well, technically, it was decided by the conservative majority of the Supreme Court long before ALL of the votes could actually be counted, but your point is still valid. 

[Scheavo]

Heard a nice quote from a German politician yesterday:

"There is no rocking chair when it comes to politics. As long as the head is clear you are responsible. "

rumborak

I think something's being lost in translation. Or I just don't understand the analogy.

The whole 'your vote doesn't matter, why even bother' thing is just bullshit. Straight up.

Can't remember exactly how the quote goes, but it something like, pessimism is the status quo's best friend. The surest way to make sure nothing changes, is to think that nothing changes, and that you can't change the system. This particular conspiracy is odd, because if people actually believe it, it actually helps the conspirators.

[Progmetty]

It's the freakin Cartwrights and I love it
MR should really show them off more, they're the only pleasant thing about him I've seen so far heh

[rumborak]

Wow, the SCOTUS validates the constitutionality of the Health Care law:

https://www.politico.com/news/stories/0612/77935.html

That comes as a surprise for me, I thought they were gonna shut it down. Does that mean we can move to more important topics now?

rumborak

[kirksnosehair]

Not directly related to the election, but Republicans are already screaming because now that the Supreme Court has upheld Obama's healthcare law, they are saying the only way to get rid of Obamacare is to unseat Obama.


And the chairman of the RNC is just basically making shit up:

Saying the high court had set “the stakes for the November election,” Republican National Committee Chairman Reince Priebus said the only way to defeat what the RNC calls “Obamacare” is to elect a new president.


Priebus describes the Affordable Healthcare Act as a “budget-busting government takeover” and says up to 20 million Americans could lose their employer-funded coverage as a result of the act.


“A panel of unelected bureaucrats now has the unprecedented authority to come between elderly patients and their doctors. Meanwhile, the rules and regulations placed on job creators and small businesses make it nearly impossible to hire new workers at a time when Americans desperately need jobs,” Priebus wrote.

1. There are NO death panels as this idiotic statement implies.   The entire bogus claim was considered one of the "Whoppers of 2009" by Factcheck.org, yet these Republicans continue to regurgitate it at every opportunity.


2. The Healthcare law does not prevent "job creators" from hiring.  That's another boneheaded lie, if it were true, then my company would not have hired 17 people since the law was passed.

[kirksnosehair]

Wow, the SCOTUS validates the constitutionality of the Health Care law:

https://www.politico.com/news/stories/0612/77935.html

That comes as a surprise for me, I thought they were gonna shut it down. Does that mean we can move to more important topics now?

rumborak

Yes, the more important topic (from the Republicans at least) will be how critical it is to unseat Obama so that Mitt Romney can try to get the law repealed.  Problem is, the Democrats are going to retain their majority in the Senate, and they've actually got a legit shot at taking the house, so even if Romney is elected, he's got very little chance of repealing anything.

[rumborak]

"Death panels" have existed since the beginning of medicine. They're called doctors, who will make judgment calls every day on who to give treatment to in the face of limited resources. Oh, and of course insurances who make the same call, at a different level.

rumborak

[El Barto]

"Death panels" have existed since the beginning of medicine. They're called doctors, who will make judgment calls every day on who to give treatment to in the face of limited resources. Oh, and of course insurances who make the same call, at a different level.

rumborak

Yeah, the insurance companies are the ones with the death panels.  Whether or not you get your transplant has always been a function of whether or not Aetna can find a reason to exclude you.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

Not directly related to the election, but Republicans are already screaming because now that the Supreme Court has upheld Obama's healthcare law, they are saying the only way to get rid of Obamacare is to unseat Obama.


And the chairman of the RNC is just basically making shit up:

Saying the high court had set “the stakes for the November election,” Republican National Committee Chairman Reince Priebus said the only way to defeat what the RNC calls “Obamacare” is to elect a new president.


Priebus describes the Affordable Healthcare Act as a “budget-busting government takeover” and says up to 20 million Americans could lose their employer-funded coverage as a result of the act.


“A panel of unelected bureaucrats now has the unprecedented authority to come between elderly patients and their doctors. Meanwhile, the rules and regulations placed on job creators and small businesses make it nearly impossible to hire new workers at a time when Americans desperately need jobs,” Priebus wrote.

1. There are NO death panels as this idiotic statement implies.   The entire bogus claim was considered one of the "Whoppers of 2009" by Factcheck.org, yet these Republicans continue to regurgitate it at every opportunity.


2. The Healthcare law does not prevent "job creators" from hiring.  That's another boneheaded lie, if it were true, then my company would not have hired 17 people since the law was passed.

Politics is not really my strong suit, so can someone explain to me how people who already have health care through their employer (like me, working for the Commonwealth of PA), could (supposedly) potentially LOSE it because of this?

[rumborak]

Well, they don't. To my knowledge this doesn't affect employment-insured people at all.

rumborak

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

So the quoted statement from Priebus about it is even more bullshit? Hmph.

[Shine]

Found this thread after nearly a year on DTF, thought I'd contribute. I haven't read all ~70 pages, so excuse if this has been said before.

The election isn't a two man race. Gary Johnson has been polling around 6-7% against Romney and Obama. In case you don't know anything about him (I wouldn't be surprised) I'll give you a brief rundown of who he is.

He started his own business and grew it into a multi-million dollar corporation employing over a thousand people. In 1992, he ran for Governor of New Mexico as a Republican and won 50%-40% against the Democratic incumbent in a state that was 2-1 democrat-republican. He vetoed 48% of all legislation that crossed his desk, a national record. Being pragmatic, he initially supported increasing education spending. When state-wide education failed to improve, he renounced his support for that legislation and moved to support school vouchers.

He was reelected 55-45 in 1996. In '99 he became the highest ranking government official to support marijuana legalization. His legacy included no tax increases while he was in office, turning the states budget deficit into a budget surplus, vetoing more legislation than the other 49 contemporary governors combined (1/3 of which were introduced by Republicans, and only 2 of the 750 vetos were overridden).

He's a prolific athlete, competing in numerous Iron Man competitions and he has summited Mount Everest.

He initial ran as a Republican contender for President in 2012, but after being only invited to 1 debate (despite polling higher than Santorum and Huntsman, who were both invited to numerous debates) he dropped out of the Republican race in December and announced his candidacy for the Libertarian ticket. The Libertarian party has ballot access in all 50 States, which means there should be only 3 names on the ballot across the nation (although Michigan may prove troublesome, as the Secretary of State (a Republican, who else sees a conflict of interest?) has declared that Johnson withdrew from the Republican race three minutes too late to be included on the ballot as a Libertarian).

So, that's Gary Johnson.

[jsem]

Yeah. 6-7%. It's basically nothing. People have been polling at 20% and not won a state.

Gary Johnson is a good guy though.

[TL]

I would love to see someone like Gary Johnson have a respectable showing in the election, but you should keep in mind that 3rd parties always poll higher this far from election day. Heck, Bob Barr was polling somewhere around those numbers this far out in 2008, and Johnson is a much better candidate than Barr.

That said, at least with Johnson, they've actually chosen a decent candidate. The man has actually held a fairly high office (governor of New Mexico), and more importantly, actually seems sane.

I mean, I'm still rooting for Obama, but it would be nice for people on the right who aren't going to vote for Obama to have an alternative to Romney.

It's kind of hilarious how transparently the US system is set up to exclude 3rd party candidates from serious contention these days. One of the most blatant things being how they immediately raised the debate qualification requirements from 10% to 15% after Ross Perot got into the debates in 1992.

[TL]

On another note, congratulations America on the SCOTUS ruling regarding the Affordable Care Act. From what I've seen, it looks like they actually made the right call.

[El Barto]

So the quoted statement from Priebus about it is even more bullshit? Hmph.

I believe the GOP rhetoric is that employers will abandon their health care programs because the costs will be greater than the penalty.  I have no idea if that'll happen or not (although in your case, being a government employee, it certainly won't).  My hunch is that if the exchange actually works, costs will go down, not up.  In any case, unless the difference between insurance and the penalty is excessive, there's still something to be gained by offering a program. 

[El Barto]

Here's my new prediction.  My take on it is that Americans will grow tired of this subject very quickly. In a nutshell, the battle's over. Done. Kaput. There's no more fighting to be done, and any talk of repealing it is naive. If Myth wants to run on a platform that's nothing but repealing Obamacare, he's going to run out of support very quickly. People will get back to their real concerns, and misguided as it may be, all they'll care about hearing from him is that he'll created jobs, not go on fighting for a cause that they've already resigned. This is a very dangerous trap for the GOP. They'd be wise to move on, but since their only way of saving face is to spin this as an opportunity to defeat Obama, they'll fall right the hell into it.

[kirksnosehair]

Found this thread after nearly a year on DTF, thought I'd contribute. I haven't read all ~70 pages, so excuse if this has been said before.

The election isn't a two man race. Gary Johnson has been polling around 6-7% against Romney and Obama. In case you don't know anything about him (I wouldn't be surprised) I'll give you a brief rundown of who he is.

He started his own business and grew it into a multi-million dollar corporation employing over a thousand people. In 1992, he ran for Governor of New Mexico as a Republican and won 50%-40% against the Democratic incumbent in a state that was 2-1 democrat-republican. He vetoed 48% of all legislation that crossed his desk, a national record. Being pragmatic, he initially supported increasing education spending. When state-wide education failed to improve, he renounced his support for that legislation and moved to support school vouchers.

He was reelected 55-45 in 1996. In '99 he became the highest ranking government official to support marijuana legalization. His legacy included no tax increases while he was in office, turning the states budget deficit into a budget surplus, vetoing more legislation than the other 49 contemporary governors combined (1/3 of which were introduced by Republicans, and only 2 of the 750 vetos were overridden).

He's a prolific athlete, competing in numerous Iron Man competitions and he has summited Mount Everest.

He initial ran as a Republican contender for President in 2012, but after being only invited to 1 debate (despite polling higher than Santorum and Huntsman, who were both invited to numerous debates) he dropped out of the Republican race in December and announced his candidacy for the Libertarian ticket. The Libertarian party has ballot access in all 50 States, which means there should be only 3 names on the ballot across the nation (although Michigan may prove troublesome, as the Secretary of State (a Republican, who else sees a conflict of interest?) has declared that Johnson withdrew from the Republican race three minutes too late to be included on the ballot as a Libertarian).

So, that's Gary Johnson.

Gary Johnson has as much chance of being elected POTUS as this guy does of being elected Governor of Tennessee
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hvaeHllwtw

[kirksnosehair]

So the quoted statement from Priebus about it is even more bullshit? Hmph.

He's a Republican


So, yeah.

[Scheavo]

Here's my new prediction.  My take on it is that Americans will grow tired of this subject very quickly. In a nutshell, the battle's over. Done. Kaput. There's no more fighting to be done, and any talk of repealing it is naive. If Myth wants to run on a platform that's nothing but repealing Obamacare, he's going to run out of support very quickly. People will get back to their real concerns, and misguided as it may be, all they'll care about hearing from him is that he'll created jobs, not go on fighting for a cause that they've already resigned. This is a very dangerous trap for the GOP. They'd be wise to move on, but since their only way of saving face is to spin this as an opportunity to defeat Obama, they'll fall right the hell into it.

Basically, this week, you've seen two major court victories for Obama. I know that doesn't make a huge difference, but it'll make a big enough difference for the swing vote, I think. It also gives a great contrast with the President, who looks like he's going to try and emphasize where he wants to go from here, and he'll attack Republicans for fighting the same old tired battle, that they in some way, already lost.

[TL]

I think one of the biggest strategic mistake 3rd parties tend to make in the US is trying to go straight for the presidency. That will never work, even if you have the greatest candidate ever and the best platform ever, which of course none of them do.

You need to build from the ground up, over a period of time. You need to start basically at the local level, show that you can be trusted with that, over time win some more elected positions, etc. Eventually, make your way up to the federal level, starting with the house. If things go well, and you get a respectable number of people elected there, you can move on to the senate. Eventually, once you've had a good number of people elected to somewhat important posts, and have shown that you can be trusted with holding power, over at least a couple of decades, you can maybe have a shot at pursuing the executive branch.
None of the 3rd parties seem to really understand that. No one is going to give the highest office in the land to a party with no real track record at the federal level. At least Johnson seems to understand that he's not going to win, and seems more interested in raising the party's profile over time.

Edit: For example, looking at the US Libertarian Party's wikipedia page, they have no one currently elected to the federal senate or house (which we all already knew), and no one elected as a governor, or to any state's upper house. They have one person in a state lower house. That's one elected person out of 7916 elected positions. That's not a party that's ready for the big chair.

[Shine]

Johnson is much more concerned, I believe, with being included in the debates in the fall. That's the primary goal of his campaign. He wants to get up their and really push both candidates to be more geared towards freedom. The biggest obstacle facing him now is the draconian 15% poll requirement imposed by the two major parties to be included in the debates. It's a very tall order, and it won't happen without a huge push from the old Ron Paul brigade, but there's a slim possibility.

[antigoon]

I would LOVE for Gary Johnson to be included in the debates but we all know that's not gonna happen.

[El Barto]

President Obama said Thursday that his administration will proceed with implementation, saying "the highest court in the land has now spoken" and urging Republicans to "move forward." He said he won't "re-fight the political battles of two years ago."

He may have to.

On one track, Republicans plan to rally voters around presidential candidate Mitt Romney as he vows to make repealing the law his Day One priority if elected. On another track, Republicans in Congress will pick up the repeal push even before November -- starting with a repeal vote next month in the House. And that's to say nothing of the remaining legal challenges against the law, such as the multi-party challenge to the so-called contraception mandate.

Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., and several other prominent Republicans said the ruling effectively turns back the clock on the political debate -- which recently has centered almost exclusively on job creation.

"In many respects, we're back where we were when I ran for office in 2010," he said. "This now becomes a central issue again."

Read more: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/06/28/republicans-claim-obamacare-ruling-could-help-push-to-repeal-it/#ixzz1z7yIxylt

This will be a disaster for the GOP.  It might rally up the base, but that doesn't matter.  The people in the mid-ground won't be interested in going backward.  Obama's going to sell the popular aspects of the plan, of which there are a few, and reiterate that the fighting is over, and most people will be content to accept it as a done deal.  The Republicans will look like sore losers as they're tossed out. 

[XJDenton]

I have to laugh at all the right wing nutjobs saying that they are moving to canada over this decision.

[Super Dude]

At least they don't have socialized medicine over there!

[kirksnosehair]

President Obama said Thursday that his administration will proceed with implementation, saying "the highest court in the land has now spoken" and urging Republicans to "move forward." He said he won't "re-fight the political battles of two years ago."

He may have to.

On one track, Republicans plan to rally voters around presidential candidate Mitt Romney as he vows to make repealing the law his Day One priority if elected. On another track, Republicans in Congress will pick up the repeal push even before November -- starting with a repeal vote next month in the House. And that's to say nothing of the remaining legal challenges against the law, such as the multi-party challenge to the so-called contraception mandate.

Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., and several other prominent Republicans said the ruling effectively turns back the clock on the political debate -- which recently has centered almost exclusively on job creation.

"In many respects, we're back where we were when I ran for office in 2010," he said. "This now becomes a central issue again."

Read more: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/06/28/republicans-claim-obamacare-ruling-could-help-push-to-repeal-it/#ixzz1z7yIxylt

This will be a disaster for the GOP.  It might rally up the base, but that doesn't matter.  The people in the mid-ground won't be interested in going backward.  Obama's going to sell the popular aspects of the plan, of which there are a few, and reiterate that the fighting is over, and most people will be content to accept it as a done deal.  The Republicans will look like sore losers as they're tossed out.

Repealing a law requires a 2/3 vote by the House AND Senate.  Mitt Romney isn't going to be repealing anything.


This issue is now basically:


Game/Set/Match -- Obama


Dude has now passed the most significant piece of legislation since the New Deal, ended the idiotic war in Iraq, killed Osama Bin Laden and he'll also be largely credited with saving General Motors.


Had this health care bill gone down in flames, I think it would have been a disaster for Obama's reelection chances, but between this and his recent masterstroke with immigration, well, Mitt who?

[El Barto]

They'll only need the 2/3 to override vetoes.  If Myth get's elected, I suspect what you'll see is a brick by brick approach to neuter the bill.  It's basically what we've been seeing with Roe for the last 20 years.  Still, I don't think the people will support a candidate when his entire strategy is re-fighting a battle they've already accepted is lost.