Author Topic: Election 2012  (Read 235342 times)

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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1925 on: April 03, 2012, 02:10:40 PM »
Then again, there's a lot of Southern states yet to come up, and Santorum (maybe not incorrectly) banks on them giving him a late boost, at least enough to make it a brokered convention. Essentially the whole month of May could be good for Santorum, as long as he can scrape together enough momentum until then.

rumborak

Texas is, I think, 155 delegates, and I just don't see Romney doing too well in that state.


Offline Super Dude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1926 on: April 03, 2012, 02:14:55 PM »
Really? I would think that the oil and industrial wealth there would carry him.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1927 on: April 03, 2012, 02:16:16 PM »
Really? I would think that the oil and industrial wealth there would carry him.

Isn't it fairly evangelical though?

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1928 on: April 03, 2012, 02:21:19 PM »
Oh I wouldn't know about that, I was focusing on the political/economic element.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1929 on: April 03, 2012, 06:43:27 PM »


:lol

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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1930 on: April 03, 2012, 07:52:44 PM »
 :lol :lol

Paul Ryan introduces Romney, one of his lines was we need a President who makes us dream, and doesn't appeal to our fears and anxieties. Romney starts his speech talking about all the anxious people he met in Wisconsin, and all the "horrible things" that people have to face - including a very idiotic mention of gas prices.

Romney really disgusts me. He mentioned the number of jobs lost under Obama - as if Obama was somehow responsible for the first 4 months of his Presidency.

*edit*

I'm not sure what I find more disturbing, the possibility that Romney believes what he says, or that he's just lying out of his ass.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 07:58:24 PM by Scheavo »

Offline PraXis

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1931 on: April 03, 2012, 08:13:59 PM »


:lol

rumborak

 :rollin

Might as well get 5000 more rounds.  :tup

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1932 on: April 04, 2012, 12:29:55 PM »
Then again, there's a lot of Southern states yet to come up, and Santorum (maybe not incorrectly) banks on them giving him a late boost, at least enough to make it a brokered convention. Essentially the whole month of May could be good for Santorum, as long as he can scrape together enough momentum until then.

rumborak

Texas is, I think, 155 delegates, and I just don't see Romney doing too well in that state.

Texas hands out their delegates proportionally.  Most polling right now has Santorum and Romney running within 1 or 2 points of each other.  None of this is going to matter.  Rick Santorum isn't going to win anything.  Romney's the nominee.  It's not a matter of "if" but a matter of "when" it gets decided.

I have to admit, though, the circular firing squad that the Republicans have formed is fun to watch  :lol

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1933 on: April 04, 2012, 12:38:37 PM »
From CNN.com:

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Santorum vowed once again on Tuesday night to remain in the nomination fight, despite a trailing delegate count and falling national and state wide poll numbers. Romney currently has 648 delegates, well ahead of Santorum's 264, according to a CNN estimate. Romney must win 44% of the remaining delegates to reach 1,144 delegates necessary to clinch the nomination. Santorum needs to win 79% of the remaining delegates to do the same.



Offline Scheavo

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1934 on: April 04, 2012, 01:22:34 PM »
Then again, there's a lot of Southern states yet to come up, and Santorum (maybe not incorrectly) banks on them giving him a late boost, at least enough to make it a brokered convention. Essentially the whole month of May could be good for Santorum, as long as he can scrape together enough momentum until then.

rumborak

Texas is, I think, 155 delegates, and I just don't see Romney doing too well in that state.

Texas hands out their delegates proportionally.  Most polling right now has Santorum and Romney running within 1 or 2 points of each other.  None of this is going to matter.  Rick Santorum isn't going to win anything.  Romney's the nominee.  It's not a matter of "if" but a matter of "when" it gets decided.

I have to admit, though, the circular firing squad that the Republicans have formed is fun to watch  :lol

Ahh, some reason I thought I heard the rest were basically all winner-take-all.


Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1935 on: April 04, 2012, 03:21:25 PM »
From CNN.com:

Quote from: CNN.com
Santorum vowed once again on Tuesday night to remain in the nomination fight, despite a trailing delegate count and falling national and state wide poll numbers. Romney currently has 648 delegates, well ahead of Santorum's 264, according to a CNN estimate. Romney must win 44% of the remaining delegates to reach 1,144 delegates necessary to clinch the nomination. Santorum needs to win 79% of the remaining delegates to do the same.

Ha, the Democrats are probably cheering when they hear that. The longer it gets driven into people's heads (by Santorum's presence) that Romney is some weird flip-flopping pseudo-conservative, the harder it will be during the election to convince people otherwise.

Which brings up an interesting point: Has the GOP spread out too much to be united under a single person? With the creation of the Tea Party it seems there's a been an even further shift to the right, and also a sense of entitlement (i.e. "we are a force whose demands have to be met"). Romney is trying to achieve the ridiculous split of both housing Tea Partiers and Moderates under him, but it seems that no matter which direction he moves towards, he's losing people on the other end. Almost like a a too-small blanket you're sharing with your partner, where both remain cold :lol

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« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 03:30:25 PM by rumborak »
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1936 on: April 04, 2012, 04:27:03 PM »
Which brings up an interesting point: Has the GOP spread out too much to be united under a single person? With the creation of the Tea Party it seems there's a been an even further shift to the right, and also a sense of entitlement (i.e. "we are a force whose demands have to be met"). Romney is trying to achieve the ridiculous split of both housing Tea Partiers and Moderates under him, but it seems that no matter which direction he moves towards, he's losing people on the other end. Almost like a a too-small blanket you're sharing with your partner, where both remain cold :lol

rumborak

I've referenced this several times, actually. In modern history, there's been a marriage between fiscal and social conservatives, where fiscal conservatives agree to go along with social policies, and social conservative agree to go along with fiscal conservative policies, in order for a conservative to be in office, and have some say. It was either that, or just cede every elections to the Democrats. That marriage definitely looks like it's broken, and the milk's been spilled and it ain't going back in the glass.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1937 on: April 04, 2012, 04:31:32 PM »
And now that fiscal conservatives have a political ideology of their own in which to articulate their views, namely in Tea Party Libertarianism, they don't really need the social side as they once did, is that what you're saying? Or am I totally off the mark?
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1938 on: April 04, 2012, 04:39:36 PM »
The problem is, how would they ever get to power under the American system? If the social conservatives split off from the fiscally conservatives, neither will get enough votes. Unless they started a coalition, which would be unprecedented.

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Offline bosk1

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1939 on: April 04, 2012, 04:46:21 PM »
I don't know that it's a matter of "uniting" or "forming a coalition."  I would hope common sense would prevail and that people could just realize that, whether Romney sucks or not, he's not Obama.  I would think it almost doesn't even matter who is on the Republican ticket.  They should still be able to win by virtue of not being Obama.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1940 on: April 04, 2012, 04:51:02 PM »
Are the ultra-conservatives safe though? I mean, the ones that are most easily lost to the Dems are the moderates. So, is it a safe bet by Romney to currently pander to the ultraconservatives, and once he's the nominee do an Etch-a-Sketch and go back to the middle in hope to get the moderates, assuming the ultracons won't bail in the process?

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Offline antigoon

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1941 on: April 04, 2012, 06:39:27 PM »
I mean, isn't that what every candidate ever has done?

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1942 on: April 04, 2012, 07:10:26 PM »
Yeah, but the problem is the party is splitting apart. He has to stretch his arms farther than usual, so to speak.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1943 on: April 04, 2012, 07:15:20 PM »
And now that fiscal conservatives have a political ideology of their own in which to articulate their views, namely in Tea Party Libertarianism, they don't really need the social side as they once did, is that what you're saying? Or am I totally off the mark?

I'm saying, evangelicals aren't going to be voting in big numbers this elections. Their dislike of Obama is not going to be a big enough factor for them to vote for a Massachusetts, liberal Mormon. Since Reagan, they would vote Republican, and they'd get some social conservative cookies tossed at them, like anti-gay marriage, abortion, etc. In return, they'd support less regulations, etc, so that fiscal conservatives can get into office.


I don't know that it's a matter of "uniting" or "forming a coalition."  I would hope common sense would prevail and that people could just realize that, whether Romney sucks or not, he's not Obama.  I would think it almost doesn't even matter who is on the Republican ticket.  They should still be able to win by virtue of not being Obama.

If that happens, it's only because of racism. Not that everyone who votes against Obama is a racist, but you'd only get enough distaste of Obama to actually vote him about by relying upon ~15% of the presidential vote against Obama being purely becuase of racism.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1944 on: April 05, 2012, 08:40:27 AM »
It's really kind of incredible that the argument against Obama that I seem to hear most often from conservatives is "we just want someone who is not Obama"

Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1945 on: April 05, 2012, 08:57:07 AM »
Especially considering the alternative. was just reading yesterday how Romney has done a complete 180 on global warming in order to get the GOP bid. Same with pro-choice. Or healthcare.

Is there actually anything the guy stands for? Other than wanting to become the most powerful man in the world?

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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1946 on: April 05, 2012, 09:01:13 AM »
Especially considering the alternative. was just reading yesterday how Romney has done a complete 180 on global warming in order to get the GOP bid. Same with pro-choice. Or healthcare.

Is there actually anything the guy stands for? Other than wanting to become the most powerful man in the world?

rumborak

I wasn't aware of him (recently) being anything but anti-environment/EPA?
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Offline antigoon

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1947 on: April 05, 2012, 09:02:26 AM »
To be fair, though I'm definitely of the view that Obama has been pretty great on the authoritarian and conservative fronts, do you really expect most Republican-registered voters to vote for a Democrat when there's an ostensibly more conservative option? 

Offline bosk1

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1948 on: April 05, 2012, 09:09:30 AM »
It's really kind of incredible that the argument against Obama that I seem to hear most often from conservatives is "we just want someone who is not Obama"

I think that's a bit of a misread.  I think antigoon is closer to the point.  It's not that any other candidates are great, but that they are better choices than him (although pretty much anyone who has run for president in the last century or so has been a better choice for president than Obama, so that is not surprising).  What is incredible to me is that there are still many we are unwilling to acknowledge the damage that has been done under his watch.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1949 on: April 05, 2012, 09:23:16 AM »
One ludicrous aspect is also that Romney is now accusing Obama for being responsible for high gas prices. I am sure some percentage sucks that up right there.

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Offline bosk1

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1950 on: April 05, 2012, 09:39:30 AM »
Yeah, almost as ludicrous as a president saying repeatedly, in his words, that it would be "unprecedented" for a federal court to overturn a piece of federal legislation that was approved in both houses.  Because, you know, it's not like (1) that isn't the court's specific job, and (2) the court hasn't established over 150 cases worth of "precedent" of doing that very thing.  But, eh, you know, truth is optional and should be discarded when more convenient lies can actually get people to vote for you.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1951 on: April 05, 2012, 09:43:54 AM »
It's really kind of incredible that the argument against Obama that I seem to hear most often from conservatives is "we just want someone who is not Obama"

I think that's a bit of a misread.  I think antigoon is closer to the point.  It's not that any other candidates are great, but that they are better choices than him (although pretty much anyone who has run for president in the last century or so has been a better choice for president than Obama, so that is not surprising).  What is incredible to me is that there are still many we are unwilling to acknowledge the damage that has been done under his watch.

Barack Obama is worse than Herbert Hoover? Richard Nixon? :orly:
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1952 on: April 05, 2012, 09:49:52 AM »
It looks that way from where I am standing.  However, admittedly, I did not live through either of those presidencies (well, just a tiny bit of Nixon, but at just a few months old, I can't really say I "experienced" any of it), and it is always easier to put more extreme labels of "best" and "worst" on things you are presently experiencing than things in the distant past.  But, yeah, it speaks volumes that whether he is in fact "worse" than either of them, he is and should be spoken of in the same sentence.  And we know Hoover had horrible economics and unregulated corporate corruption to deal with, and that Nixon was dishonest and shady, but it's like we now have both of those (among other problems) all rolled into one person in Obama...  Just...ugh.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1953 on: April 05, 2012, 09:58:29 AM »
I can't shake the feeling that your opposition to Obama doesn't have at least certain visceral element to it, bosk.

rumborak
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1954 on: April 05, 2012, 10:06:27 AM »
I can't shake the feeling that your opposition to Obama doesn't have at least certain visceral element to it, bosk.

rumborak


I'm not certain what you mean by that, so it's hard to admit or deny.  Can you elaborate?
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1955 on: April 05, 2012, 10:11:50 AM »
Things is, I certainly can see many of the points you bring forward against Obama. Overall I find his performance too rather disappointing. But, that is a far cry from your statements about him having been a disaster, having caused a "lot of damage", or as you put it, "plain Ugh". I can't help but think that there's a good amount of "I won't give a Democrat so much as a pinky" in this.

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Offline bosk1

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1956 on: April 05, 2012, 10:29:55 AM »
I can't help but think that there's a good amount of "I won't give a Democrat so much as a pinky" in this.

Okay, fair enough.  I see where you care coming from.  My response is, yes and no.  I try to keep my criticisms of Obama mostly limited to what he has said and done versus merely his party affiliation.  But, admittedly, it is impossible for me to do that 100%.  As I have said many times, I do not consider myself a republican, so please don't take this as blind GOP loyalty.  It isn't.  But as far as party ideology (whether we are talking about "official" party ideology or just the more nebulous set of core beliefs that tend to be shared by those who are members of the party), yes, I am admittedly opposed to a great deal of it.  Certainly not all, but a fair portion of it.  So in that regard, yes, I do have an anti-Democrat bias.  I will not deny that at all.  And I also admit that sometimes, that bias may lead me to make more broad judgments than are fair.  I don't think it's a good idea to let my biases unfairly act as a lens through which I view all actions of Obama or anyone else, but I am admittedly guilty of that at times, sure.  I think that's human nature, and we are all guilty of it to varying degrees.  But I do try to be objective, and will absolutely give credit where credit is due. 

To pick an obvious and oversimplistic example, I am of the opinion that bringing known terrorists to justice is a priority.  So to pick the specific example of Bin Laden, we knew for decades that the guy was dangerous, and that he should be stopped.  He was on the nation's priority list going WAY back.  Clinton had the opportunity to get him and dropped the ball.  I give him an F in that regard.  Not because he is a Dem, but because he had Bin Laden on a silver platter and failed to take action.  Bush could have been more focused instead of going off on tangents, but didn't have the very specific opportunities Clinton had.  Still, his administration missed a lot of clues and was led down rabbit holes that had little to do with the goal.  It's hard to know what he knew and didn't know, so it's hard to give a specific grade, but he didn't do well either.  Probably somewhere in the D+ to C range (again, if he had the specifics Clinton had, he would clearly get an F).  Obama seemed to take a long time, but the dude was seriously underground by the time Obama took office.  And he had other fish to fry, so Bin Laden was obviously not priority #1.  But when the opportunity presented itself, he acted swiftly and achieved the result.  I give him a B+ (would be in the A- or possibly A range if not for what I consider to be mishandling after the fact in terms of what information was released, the handling of the body, etc.).  I applaud him for what he accomplished in that regard, democrat or not.  He did something good, and he deservedly gets all the credit for it.  Again, simplistic example, but what I am trying to say is, I am aware that I am biased, and I consciously try to give credit where credit is due regardless of ideology.  That is merely one example.

But in looking at the entire balance sheet, yeah, I find him to be severely lacking and, as I have said before, in the bottom tier all-time.
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Offline TL

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1957 on: April 05, 2012, 11:14:06 AM »
See, if you don't think Obama is a good president, and you prefer Romney, that's valid.
But when you ramp up the rhetoric to such a silly, undeserved level (such as calling Obama the worst presidential candidate out of any major candidate in the past century), it makes anything you say on the matter much harder to take seriously.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1958 on: April 05, 2012, 11:20:42 AM »
Why?  If I think Romney would make a bad president, but I think Obama has made a terrible president, should I not validly prefer Romney?
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1959 on: April 05, 2012, 11:27:51 AM »
Yeah, almost as ludicrous as a president saying repeatedly, in his words, that it would be "unprecedented" for a federal court to overturn a piece of federal legislation that was approved in both houses.  Because, you know, it's not like (1) that isn't the court's specific job, and (2) the court hasn't established over 150 cases worth of "precedent" of doing that very thing.  But, eh, you know, truth is optional and should be discarded when more convenient lies can actually get people to vote for you.

Isn't it true that no piece of legislation as "hallmark" worthy as "Obamacare" has been overturned? I think it's just as silly of thing to say, but it still different than what you're making it out to be.

It's really kind of incredible that the argument against Obama that I seem to hear most often from conservatives is "we just want someone who is not Obama"

I think that's a bit of a misread.  I think antigoon is closer to the point.  It's not that any other candidates are great, but that they are better choices than him (although pretty much anyone who has run for president in the last century or so has been a better choice for president than Obama, so that is not surprising).  What is incredible to me is that there are still many we are unwilling to acknowledge the damage that has been done under his watch.

Cept Obama and Romney are really not that far apart, except for foreign policy. And on foreign policy, Obama is probably the best President we've had in decades.

What's so incredible to me, is that people still want to blame the President for everything and anything that happens in the Government, while he is in office. Or that he even has the power to prevent all damage from happening. You think damage has been done while Obama has been President? Great - then vote out your congressmen and congresswoman.