Election 2012

[snapple]

That wouldn't change much. We may be sitting on a good amount of oil, but not a ridiculous amount of oil. It's never going to be $20 to fill up your tank ever again, that I can promise you.

That's the most asinine argument I've ever heard.

1.) Regardless of the amount of oil, it's irresponsible to not tap into it. Relying on someone else is always retarded. We all know how group work in college goes, so why should I trust someone from a different country with my lifeline?

2.) I didn't say fucking shit about $20 to fill up my tank. $4 is sustainable. I'm used to it at this point. I don't want to fucking pay $5+ for a fucking tank of gas.


While gas prices go up, we're sitting around with our thumbs up our asses and not doing anything. There is no reason why we aren't drilling. We can drill and find alternatives. Let's quit throwing all of our eggs in one basket. This is why I think Obama's administration is completely fucktarded. "OOO ALT ENUR-G" Yeah, BUT FUCKING USE WHAT WE HAVE TO HELP GET THE ALTERNATIVE SHIT.

[antigoon]

It's gonna be ok man.

[snapple]

It's gonna be ok man.

It'll be okay when we don't get a fucking retard* in the White House.


* A fucking retard when it comes to shit like this.

[Super Dude]

That wouldn't change much. We may be sitting on a good amount of oil, but not a ridiculous amount of oil. It's never going to be $20 to fill up your tank ever again, that I can promise you.

That's the most asinine argument I've ever heard.

1.) Regardless of the amount of oil, it's irresponsible to not tap into it. Relying on someone else is always retarded. We all know how group work in college goes, so why should I trust someone from a different country with my lifeline?

2.) I didn't say fucking shit about $20 to fill up my tank. $4 is sustainable. I'm used to it at this point. I don't want to fucking pay $5+ for a fucking tank of gas.


While gas prices go up, we're sitting around with our thumbs up our asses and not doing anything. There is no reason why we aren't drilling. We can drill and find alternatives. Let's quit throwing all of our eggs in one basket. This is why I think Obama's administration is completely fucktarded. "OOO ALT ENUR-G" Yeah, BUT FUCKING USE WHAT WE HAVE TO HELP GET THE ALTERNATIVE SHIT.

Welcome to the first role of global economics: trade with the guy who has the comparative advantage. Right now that's either the Saudis or the Venezuelans.

Second of all, I'm all for finding alternatives while using oil, but we're not gonna start using alternatives in massive quantities if people stay stuck on oil. That's been the score the last few decades, it's nothing new. People will delay the switch as long as possible, even willing to take on the unnecessary burdens of expensive gas.

Third of all, for the record, we have been using alternatives alongside oil for a long time actually. It's just that politically we're addicted to oil, which causes way more problems than using alternatives, whether we're talking environmentally or even in terms of foreign relations. Basically, we're using alternatives, but not nearly enough to actually solve any of these problems.

[snapple]

All piss poor excuses for us not drilling.

[Super Dude]

Clearly you didn't even bother to read a single word I said. There are plenty of reasons to drill, but those cause way more problems than they'd solve. It's like scratching chicken pox: it may feel good at first, but in the end all you're doing is giving yourself scars. And it still fucking itches.

[rumborak]

To my knowledge, the untapped resourcess in the US are also not those super-easy-to-get-to ones, but require significant processing, which rakes up the price. So, you might no longer be as much at the mercy of some obscure country, but the price will still be high.

And yeah, god forbid we have a president who actually looks toward the future and doesn't try to lull the gullible part of the population into a false sense of security that everything can stay the same as it was.

rumborak

[Super Dude]

And even if we do tap into it and say "DRILL BABY, DRILL!" the fact remains that U.S. oil has long since peaked, and it won't nearly be enough to tide us over with the impending global peak.

[snapple]

To my knowledge, the untapped resourcess in the US are also not those super-easy-to-get-to ones, but require significant processing, which rakes up the price. So, you might no longer be as much at the mercy of some obscure country, but the price will still be high.

Iran and the Saudi's are far from obscure (hint: I've heard about them ). But that's the gist of it. If I am paying a fuck load for gas, I'd rather it be to my countrymen. The money, now, goes to Saudi princes who spend here (tax free, IIRC).

And yeah, god forbid we have a president who actually looks toward the future and doesn't try to lull the gullible part of the population into a false sense of security that everything can stay the same as it was.

rumborak

Looking towards the future is good. But doing nothing when you have oil companies begging to be allowed to drill is asinine. Right/left pub/dem aside, Obama has been pretty pro-Alt Energy and somewhat anti-oil. Well, at least US Oil. I'm not saying there aren't legitimate reasons why we couldn't drill. But, I'd rather control my own destiny than some country on the other side of the world.

[snapple]

And even if we do tap into it and say "DRILL BABY, DRILL!" the fact remains that U.S. oil has long since peaked, and it won't nearly be enough to tide us over with the impending global peak.

Again, completely asinine and a piss poor excuse.

"well, these gold mines aren't worth digging out because they won't meet the demand being set forth by the world!"

[rumborak]

The problem is that the US-based drilling is also in ridiculously deep off-shore wells under the ocean. The Deep Water Horizon's spill was partially caused by the fact that it's getting more and more risky to drill in the depths it requires to get to the oil.

rumborak

[Super Dude]

Talk about asinine absolutism. Alright rumbo I'm out, you can take over if you want.

[snapple]

The problem is that the US-based drilling is also in ridiculously deep off-shore wells under the ocean. The Deep Water Horizon's spill was partially caused by the fact that it's getting more and more risky to drill in the depths it requires to get to the oil.

rumborak

So we don't do something because it's risky? I get it, but sweet Neptune of the sea. That's about as sad as it gets. This is the US of fucking A. We shouldn't allow something to not happen because it's risky. If there were any indications that drilling in these places would be okay if the risks were addressed, I'm sure someone would be ontop of that and get the shit under control.

[rumborak]

So, you're fine with devastating whole shorelines of the United States for the few years of oil supply it gets you?

rumborak

[snapple]

So, you're fine with devastating whole shorelines of the United States for the few years of oil supply it gets you?

rumborak

No, I'm fine with researching how to get this shit done safely. Do you think that Obama's administration has authorized research on how to drill safely? Or said they'd gladly accept drilling in one of these areas if they can drill safely? If so, post a source. I'm just going with my gut and assuming "no".

You've got to exhaust all possibilities.

[rumborak]

With unlimited resources, sure. With limited resources, I'd rather spend the money on things that will last for decades than researching on how to not fuck up the shorelines of the US to get to oil that buys you a miniscule amount of time (and research has shown that it wouldn't make a significant dent in the oil price anyway).

rumborak

[snapple]

Don't mistake my tone with anger. Sure, I'm out of patience in the entire situation, but I'm not angry. I could get many a friends to testify on here that I swear like that all the time.

[Super Dude]

With unlimited resources, sure. With limited resources, I'd rather spend the money on things that will last for decades than researching on how to not fuck up the shorelines of the US to get to oil that buys you a miniscule amount of time (and research has shown that it wouldn't make a significant dent in the oil price anyway).

rumborak

Like alternatives, for example, which as noted, we've had for several decades. Hell, the first electric car was actually produced alongside the gas-driven Model T.

[gmillerdrake]

So, you're fine with devastating whole shorelines of the United States for the few years of oil supply it gets you?

rumborak

The US is the only country not milking the Gulf for its oil. There are multiple countries just off the US shores out in 'International Water' in both the Gulf and the Atlantic that are pumping out oil that are just as 'dangerous' to those shorelines. The fact that the US refuses to do the same is ridiculous.

[skydivingninja]

That wouldn't change much. We may be sitting on a good amount of oil, but not a ridiculous amount of oil. It's never going to be $20 to fill up your tank ever again, that I can promise you.

That's the most asinine argument I've ever heard.

1.) Regardless of the amount of oil, it's irresponsible to not tap into it. Relying on someone else is always retarded. We all know how group work in college goes, so why should I trust someone from a different country with my lifeline?

2.) I didn't say fucking shit about $20 to fill up my tank. $4 is sustainable. I'm used to it at this point. I don't want to fucking pay $5+ for a fucking tank of gas.


While gas prices go up, we're sitting around with our thumbs up our asses and not doing anything. There is no reason why we aren't drilling. We can drill and find alternatives. Let's quit throwing all of our eggs in one basket. This is why I think Obama's administration is completely fucktarded. "OOO ALT ENUR-G" Yeah, BUT FUCKING USE WHAT WE HAVE TO HELP GET THE ALTERNATIVE SHIT.

Welcome to the first role of global economics: trade with the guy who has the comparative advantage. Right now that's either the Saudis or the Venezuelans.

Canada actually gives us most of our oil.  They don't hate us AS much as the other guys   Plus Venezuela is a risky place to be.  Chavez basically stole a shitton of Exxon assets from them, after all.  The Saudis do have a lot of oil though.

Snapple, your argument for wanting to drill here so you can give your money to other Americans isn't entirely sound.  For one, no matter where you buy gas from, money gets back to the US.  It gets to the truck drivers, convenience store owners, the guys who have to fix the lights when they go out, etc. etc.  You can boycott places based on where they get their oil, certainly (IIRC, Shell gets their gas from Venezuela), but to imply that all our money is going to the Saudis or Canadians is just silly, especially when those countries can and will invest it back into us. 

I'm all for alternative energy sources.  We're gonna need to switch eventually, there's no reason not to explore them now, and we need to save the oil we have.  Its certainly better to campaign for them rather than to try and perpetuate the myth that everything will stay the same forever, because it can't in any situation.  Or, as Rumbo  put it:

With unlimited resources, sure. With limited resources, I'd rather spend the money on things that will last for decades than researching on how to not fuck up the shorelines of the US to get to oil that buys you a miniscule amount of time (and research has shown that it wouldn't make a significant dent in the oil price anyway).

rumborak

[Super Dude]

Besides, what ever happened to technological progress and social development? Staying on oil brings us closer to neither, and it's really frustrating, even forgetting all the environmental stuff. That's the stuff of stagnation, and stagnation is what causes great civilizations to fall.

Hmm...although, massive economic crash...waning international power...well, whaddya know! It's already happening.

So, you're fine with devastating whole shorelines of the United States for the few years of oil supply it gets you?

rumborak

The US is the only country not milking the Gulf for its oil. There are multiple countries just off the US shores out in 'International Water' in both the Gulf and the Atlantic that are pumping out oil that are just as 'dangerous' to those shorelines. The fact that the US refuses to do the same is ridiculous.

Has everyone forgotten the BP Oil Spill disaster?

[emindead]

Was it wise for the US to ever start drilling in the Middle East? Nationalization was just about a matter of time...

[Super Dude]

Hooray, autarky. We all know where that leads.

[gmillerdrake]

Besides, what ever happened to technological progress and social development? Staying on oil brings us closer to neither, and it's really frustrating, even forgetting all the environmental stuff. That's the stuff of stagnation, and stagnation is what causes great civilizations to fall.

Hmm...although, massive economic crash...waning international power...well, whaddya know! It's already happening.

So, you're fine with devastating whole shorelines of the United States for the few years of oil supply it gets you?

rumborak

The US is the only country not milking the Gulf for its oil. There are multiple countries just off the US shores out in 'International Water' in both the Gulf and the Atlantic that are pumping out oil that are just as 'dangerous' to those shorelines. The fact that the US refuses to do the same is ridiculous.

Has everyone forgotten the BP Oil Spill disaster?

Which was a disaster...definately....no argument. But even there due to ridiculous rules about drilling BP was forced to set up shop far out at sea doing deep water drilling. Which is as we've seen, way more difficult and open to 'disaster'. These rigs that are drilling at the moment are deep water drilling which is just as dangerous as the BP rig was.
  Let them bring it closer in to shore where it is more managable.

[Super Dude]

Actually, it wasn't so much due to the ridiculous rules as the fact that they weren't following them...

[rumborak]

Screw that wildlife. I heard they're liberals.

rumborak

[Scheavo]

Too bad we don't tap into our own natural resources.

What fantasy land to you live in where we aren't drilling more now than ever? Seriously, I want to know how it is you don't think we're tapping our own natural resources. Obama had a temporary ban on drilling, AFTER the BP oil spill, becuase there were and are legitimate safety concerns. Natural gas is going through a gigantic boom right now, and Obama simply wants to monitor and make sure safety isn't thrown out the window for profits - which oil companies do quite fucking often. That's not saying, "we're not going to drill."

Meanwhile, Obama's policies and investments have helped us reduce our demand for oil (56 mpg fleet standard, vastly increased our capacity to manufacture batteries for hybrid and electric vehicles, and investments in solar and wind to help us power those vehicles. Meaning, he's actually doing something to help us ween ourselves of oil, which means maybe we can reasonably expect to leave the Middle East, and end the entire clusterfuck we're there for. We could drill everything we got, right now, and it still wouldn't be enough for us to ween ourselves of oil.

[TL]

Domestic oil production under Obama has actually been on average higher than under Bush.

The two largest foreign suppliers of oil to the United States are Canada and Mexico, with Canada's percentage currently going up.

One of the things sending gas prices up right now? It's spring. In the fall, closer to the election, gas prices are going to go down a bit. This happens basically every year.

[Riceball]

You guys are funny

Ofcourse its ideal to have complete energy security, I mean if given the option of relying on foreign entities for one of, if not the most, important inputs into the economy or being fully self-sufficient - I know what I'd choose.

But, its nieve to think that having full energy security at all costs is good policy: it aint. If you can get it cheaper overseas in a reasonably secure fashion, then thats the way to go, otherwise you raise the price of practically everything because it costs you more than it would otherwise to source domestically. Fortunately/unfortunately, thats just how the economy works.

The price of oil reflects three key things: cost of production, relative scarcity and transport. Sourcing domestically may reduce transport costs, but it won't do anything to relative scarcity (as in, the trade-off between supply and demand) because other producers will just cut production to keep prices up. And you are left with the cost of production which would be higher, and so you don't really gain anything other than pissing off the cartels who can really hurt your economy.

Basically, let the market do its thing. Sure, invade a couple of countries every once in a while to shore up your supply contracts, but mess with the market at your peril.

[gmillerdrake]

Screw that wildlife. I heard they're liberal
rumborak

Wildlife has nothing to worry about, it'll be here long after all we know is all an oil deposit being sucked up by the next round of idiots.

[Super Dude]

Too bad we don't tap into our own natural resources.

What fantasy land to you live in where we aren't drilling more now than ever? Seriously, I want to know how it is you don't think we're tapping our own natural resources. Obama had a temporary ban on drilling, AFTER the BP oil spill, becuase there were and are legitimate safety concerns. Natural gas is going through a gigantic boom right now, and Obama simply wants to monitor and make sure safety isn't thrown out the window for profits - which oil companies do quite fucking often. That's not saying, "we're not going to drill."

Meanwhile, Obama's policies and investments have helped us reduce our demand for oil (56 mpg fleet standard, vastly increased our capacity to manufacture batteries for hybrid and electric vehicles, and investments in solar and wind to help us power those vehicles. Meaning, he's actually doing something to help us ween ourselves of oil, which means maybe we can reasonably expect to leave the Middle East, and end the entire clusterfuck we're there for. We could drill everything we got, right now, and it still wouldn't be enough for us to ween ourselves of oil.

I'd like to see your literature, I'm interested to know about whatever policies allowed him to enact this change and see how well it's working.

[Scheavo]

Too bad we don't tap into our own natural resources.

What fantasy land to you live in where we aren't drilling more now than ever? Seriously, I want to know how it is you don't think we're tapping our own natural resources. Obama had a temporary ban on drilling, AFTER the BP oil spill, becuase there were and are legitimate safety concerns. Natural gas is going through a gigantic boom right now, and Obama simply wants to monitor and make sure safety isn't thrown out the window for profits - which oil companies do quite fucking often. That's not saying, "we're not going to drill."

Meanwhile, Obama's policies and investments have helped us reduce our demand for oil (56 mpg fleet standard, vastly increased our capacity to manufacture batteries for hybrid and electric vehicles, and investments in solar and wind to help us power those vehicles. Meaning, he's actually doing something to help us ween ourselves of oil, which means maybe we can reasonably expect to leave the Middle East, and end the entire clusterfuck we're there for. We could drill everything we got, right now, and it still wouldn't be enough for us to ween ourselves of oil.

I'd like to see your literature, I'm interested to know about whatever policies allowed him to enact this change and see how well it's working.

(search: obama mpg standards)
https://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2011/07/29/president-obama-announces-new-fuel-economy-standards
https://thehill.com/blogs/e2-wire/e2-wire/174351-obama-unveils-tighter-vehicle-fuel-economy-standards

Sorry, 54.5. What's interesting to note, is that the industry was directly involved in the negotiations. Basically, the industries had issues with uncertainty at the state level, meaning they didn't know what minimum they had to make. This was a welcomed agreement, and unclustered governmental rules like conservatives like, and it didn't do it by ignoring the industries concerns. It was really a win win for everyone - and it seems to be helping.


(search: obama car batteries)
https://blogs.wsj.com/drivers-seat/2012/03/12/obama-report-electric-car-batteries-getting-cheaper/

The cost of batteries for electric and hybrid cars is expected to fall in the next three years to levels where everyday consumers could consider them affordable

Much of the expected price drop is attributable to increased battery production, the administration said. According to the report, the U.S. had two factories making advanced batteries for cars in 2009.

“Since then, we have supported 30 new advanced battery and electric vehicle component plants that are opening across the country,” the report said.

The above is actually news to me as well, but he mentioned these things in at least one state of the union (he may have mentioned it in 2009, then again later to demonstrate what he's done, he at least has done so in speech form). It was part of the stimulus package, that conservatives hate.

(search: Obama solar energy)

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/03/21/president-obama-doubles-down-on-efforts-to-boost-solar-industry/
https://www.cbsnews.com/2100-250_162-6643511.html

Think it was part of the stimulus. There was a couple of billion to renewable and green development, so not nearly enough - but that's not really in Obama's power.

You can find anything I'll find, and probably more. I'm just ranting off from my memory of numerous articles and general media exposure regarding Obama and his position.

[Riceball]

Martin Wolf (one of the world's sharpest non-academic economic thinkers) on oil & the US:

https://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/US-Oil-gas-supply-energy-Barack-Obama-pd20120328-SSSVT?OpenDocument&src=sph

  I just realised this may be behind a login wall...you don't have to pay to sign up, but for anyone who is interested let me know and I can PM or email. Its that interesting...

[Super Dude]

Ron Lawl can't explain his lack of primary success: https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/28/us/politics/in-ron-pauls-campaign-strength-and-weakness.html?_r=1&hp&gwh=FB019D9187ACFC9BE02151C347C0CD99

[skydivingninja]

It really is kind of baffling.  I don't know how they turn these numbers at rallies but see less people actually voting for him.  It doesn't help that mainstream media, especially conservative-slanted media like Fox News, never gave him a minute of their time, yet lavished all this praise on the Tea Party.  The statistic in that article about half of his supporters being disillusioned with Republicans is probably very true though.  I know I am.