Author Topic: Election 2012  (Read 126704 times)

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Offline jsem

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #175 on: October 19, 2011, 09:47:14 AM »
Ron Paul money bomb is today. Donate.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #176 on: October 19, 2011, 09:58:04 AM »
Ron Paul is, in a word:  "Unelectable" when it comes to the presidency.

That's just sad. He would make a great president.
I don't know about that, but fuck at least he has some integrity.

That's what I mean. Who do you think was the last president who was honest as Ron Paul is today?

He has integrity, but he is also remarkably detached from the human populace.

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Offline antigoon

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #177 on: October 19, 2011, 10:00:48 AM »
So are the other candidates.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #178 on: October 19, 2011, 10:05:59 AM »
Nah. The other candidates might be liars, but I think they at least care for people's benefit in general. Paul strikes me as someone who sees people's benefit as a secondary outcome to his ideologies.
When Paul was asked by Blitzer about that 30-year old without medical insurance, I thought Paul's response was very tell-tale. He evaded the answer because people are only a piece in the free-market equation.

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Offline antigoon

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #179 on: October 19, 2011, 10:11:35 AM »
Nah. The other candidates might be liars, but I think they at least care for people's benefit in general.

rumborak

Maybe I'm just hopelessly cynical but I don't really think this at all. Maybe a little bit. Like, the minimum amount. I think Ron Paul, however misguided we think his economic/fiscal policy ideas are, thinks he's doing the right thing.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #180 on: October 19, 2011, 10:23:59 AM »
Ron Paul. A poser? What is he posing as?

A Republican.

Offline unklejman

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #181 on: October 19, 2011, 10:24:10 AM »
Ron Paul money bomb is today. Donate.

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A Republican.

I'd say the neo-conservatives are posing as republicans.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #182 on: October 19, 2011, 10:26:42 AM »
Nah. The other candidates might be liars, but I think they at least care for people's benefit in general.

rumborak

Maybe I'm just hopelessly cynical but I don't really think this at all. Maybe a little bit. Like, the minimum amount. I think Ron Paul, however misguided we think his economic/fiscal policy ideas are, thinks he's doing the right thing.

He is, but I think he's putting the cart before the horse. His idea, i.e. the idea of Libertarianism, is that a process can be trusted more with the welfare of beings than the action of the beings themselves. And I think that notion makes him patently unelectable.
A friend of mine the other day said he's essentially the court jester. It's a very good analogy; he's really good at putting the mirror in front of other people. But he himself would be a disastrous president. And that's why he, once his role if fulfilled as the court jester, drops out of the running.

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Offline antigoon

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #183 on: October 19, 2011, 10:31:03 AM »
I think that's a fair analysis, although I don't think the powers-that-be would let his presidency be disastrous. In any event, I'm glad he exists; if only to hold the mirror up.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #184 on: October 19, 2011, 10:32:00 AM »
I'd say the neo-conservatives are posing as republicans.

That's what Paul would have you believe, no-doubt. But even Ronald Reagan, for the demi-god he is today, was far from Ron Paul's staunch libertarianism, and I think you're fooling yourself if you can look at American History and honestly say that the current Republican party is further from its Reagan-platform days ideology-wise than Ron Paul is.

The fact is, there has never been a Republican who has run successively on a platform like Ron Paul's. If you disagree, I urge you to find one. But, for now, it seems like Ron Paul's rhetoric about the golden days of being what he calls a "conservative" in the US is just that.

And, sorry, Paul's victories in his Congressional district don't count as victories for his platform. Barely anyone ever runs against him. Sometimes Democrats don't even run for it. Other times, no-one other than him runs for it at all.

Offline unklejman

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #185 on: October 19, 2011, 11:16:48 AM »
I meant further back than Reagan.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #186 on: October 19, 2011, 12:31:58 PM »
Ron Paul is, in a word:  "Unelectable" when it comes to the presidency.

That's just sad. He would make a great president.
I don't know about that, but fuck at least he has some integrity.

Well, I guess that depends on your definition of "integrity" now doesn't it?

Here's the problem I see with Ron Paul.

Contrast his "Plan To Restore America" which calls for a trillion dollars in spending cuts.

with....

The fact that he is the Republican who has introduced MORE Pork-Barrel spending than ANY other in the House

Ron Paul is a typical, duplicitous, conniving, lying, two-faced hypocritical politician, just like every other politician in the American political system, and that includes the liberals in my party too.

Don't be fooled.

Offline Ħ

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #187 on: October 19, 2011, 12:35:01 PM »
Should we all just vote for Huntsman?
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #188 on: October 19, 2011, 12:36:25 PM »
Nah. The other candidates might be liars, but I think they at least care for people's benefit in general.

rumborak

Maybe I'm just hopelessly cynical but I don't really think this at all. Maybe a little bit. Like, the minimum amount. I think Ron Paul, however misguided we think his economic/fiscal policy ideas are, thinks he's doing the right thing.

He is, but I think he's putting the cart before the horse. His idea, i.e. the idea of Libertarianism, is that a process can be trusted more with the welfare of beings than the action of the beings themselves. And I think that notion makes him patently unelectable.
A friend of mine the other day said he's essentially the court jester. It's a very good analogy; he's really good at putting the mirror in front of other people. But he himself would be a disastrous president. And that's why he, once his role if fulfilled once he's had a bunch of "money-bomb" donations to fund his next House of Representatives election campaign he as the court jester drops out of the running.

rumborak

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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #189 on: October 19, 2011, 12:38:08 PM »
Should we all just vote for Huntsman?

To be honest, I think it's a tragedy that he's not getting any respect, but then again, he's way, way, way too reasonable and not nearly anti-intellectual enough for today's RepublicanTea PartyTM

Offline unklejman

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #190 on: October 19, 2011, 01:06:27 PM »
Well, I guess that depends on your definition of "integrity" now doesn't it?

Here's the problem I see with Ron Paul.

Contrast his "Plan To Restore America" which calls for a trillion dollars in spending cuts.

with....

The fact that he is the Republican who has introduced MORE Pork-Barrel spending than ANY other in the House

Ron Paul is a typical, duplicitous, conniving, lying, two-faced hypocritical politician, just like every other politician in the American political system, and that includes the liberals in my party too.

Don't be fooled.

But the in the link you posted he completely explains the reason why. If Congress does not make a specific allocation, the task falls to the executive branch... It's not like the money will not get spent if it is not earmarked.  At least some of the federal tax money his constituents pay will be returned to hopefully benefit them, all the while he is fighting against those taxes, as well as voting against budgets that use those taxes in unconstitutional ways. I don't see any other way to handle this.

 And of course you look at the rest of his record. He doesn't take part of the congressional pension, hasn't voted to raise congressional salary, lobbyists never even bother going to his office because he doesn't give them the time of day, he's never taken a government paid vacation, and he returns a portion of his annual congressional office budget to the U.S. treasury every year.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #191 on: October 19, 2011, 01:38:16 PM »
Well, I guess that depends on your definition of "integrity" now doesn't it?

Here's the problem I see with Ron Paul.

Contrast his "Plan To Restore America" which calls for a trillion dollars in spending cuts.

with....

The fact that he is the Republican who has introduced MORE Pork-Barrel spending than ANY other in the House

Ron Paul is a typical, duplicitous, conniving, lying, two-faced hypocritical politician, just like every other politician in the American political system, and that includes the liberals in my party too.

Don't be fooled.

But the in the link you posted he completely explains the reason why. If Congress does not make a specific allocation, the task falls to the executive branch... It's not like the money will not get spent if it is not earmarked.  At least some of the federal tax money his constituents pay will be returned to hopefully benefit them, all the while he is fighting against those taxes, as well as voting against budgets that use those taxes in unconstitutional ways. I don't see any other way to handle this.

 And of course you look at the rest of his record. He doesn't take part of the congressional pension, hasn't voted to raise congressional salary, lobbyists never even bother going to his office because he doesn't give them the time of day, he's never taken a government paid vacation, and he returns a portion of his annual congressional office budget to the U.S. treasury every year.

Most of that stuff is insignificant fluff.  He doesn't need the congressional pension because he's loaded.  He doesn't need the congressional salary because he's loaded.  I'll give the lobbyist thing, they don't like him, but he takes plenty of donations from PACs which isn't that much different, he just doesn't talk to their representatives.  I don't really care that he returns part of his office budget to the treasury.  More meaningless fluff.  What I care about is would a Ron Paul presidency represent my views.  The fact is, in terms of foreign policy, I actually like quite a bit of what he has to say.  I just don't agree with him on much, especially domestically, and you have to admit he's said some downright cooky things.

And he's freaking 75 years old!  I'm sorry, but that's TOO old.  He'd be almost 80 by the end of his first term.




Offline unklejman

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #192 on: October 19, 2011, 01:44:23 PM »
I was only responding to the following accusation:

Quote
Ron Paul is a typical, duplicitous, conniving, lying, two-faced hypocritical politician

I wasn't trying to convince you to vote for him.

As for his age, I don't really know why that matter so much if he is in good health.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #193 on: October 19, 2011, 01:52:42 PM »
I was only responding to the following accusation:

Quote
Ron Paul is a typical, duplicitous, conniving, lying, two-faced hypocritical politician

I wasn't trying to convince you to vote for him.

As for his age, I don't really know why that matter so much if he is in good health.

I don't want ANYONE to vote for him.  I think 75 is too old to be President.  I'd think the same thing if he were a Democrat.

Offline jsem

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #194 on: October 19, 2011, 02:17:05 PM »
He's going to choose a smart running mate that hold nearly the same views as himself, so if he'd die or anything - it'd be fine with a younger bright VP taking his spot. The ideas are stronger than the person himself, so I hope his age doesn't hold anyone back.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #195 on: October 19, 2011, 02:29:05 PM »
He's going to choose a smart running mate that hold nearly the same views as himself, so if he'd die or anything - it'd be fine with a younger bright VP taking his spot. The ideas are stronger than the person himself, so I hope his age doesn't hold anyone back.

I seriously doubt he'll make it far enough to choose a running mate.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #196 on: October 19, 2011, 06:53:35 PM »
I meant further back than Reagan.

Like who?

Ford? No. Nixon? Definitely not. Eisenhower? FAR from a libertarian. Hoover? Yeah, he believed in poor people pulling themselves up by their bootstraps, but what about prohibition?

How far back do we have to go before we realize that Paul's on the fringe, and would be no matter which Republican primary he was taking part in? This thing where he pretends to be the sole guardian and heir of tru republican principles is a lie, typical of the kinds of lies politicians tell all the time.

Offline unklejman

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #197 on: October 20, 2011, 10:02:53 AM »
Why are you comparing to only presidential candidates, and specifically the ones who won? Barry Goldwater comes to mind.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #198 on: October 20, 2011, 10:26:11 AM »
I'm not sure what you don't get. RP supporters have no problem admitting and pointing out that he's the black sheep of the Republican Party, but is it really that tough to figure out why? He doesn't run on the GoP's platform, and then he claims that he runs on what the "true" platform of the GoP is, even though he can't factually point to a time when the majority of the GoP shared in his ideology and backed it up with their actions.

People (like most of my family) who've been voting GoP most of their lives see him as a pretender. And, to be brutally honest, that's what he is. In fact, most RP supporters I've met have been people who are anything but actual Republicans. This includes people I know who are left of most democrats, libertarians(not REPUBLICANS for a reason!), and teenagers getting out of their Michael Moore phase. But very few people who actually are card-carrying GoP members.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 10:31:37 AM by Perpetual Change »

Offline unklejman

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #199 on: October 20, 2011, 11:04:59 AM »
It's true he is trying to change the republican party. The system is set up against a third party. I don't see any problem with RP running the the one of the two he closer identifies with.

I actually used to listen to and agree with the likes of Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O. back in the early 2000's.  In fact I watched the first bombing of Iraq practically with popcorn.  That was in 2003, but within a year I was questioning Bush, the republicans by the next year and by 2007 I was a full on non-interventionist strict constitutionalist. That is the story with a lot of Paul supporters. But you are right, there are some liberals who are on board as well because of the foreign policy and anti-corporatism site of RP's platform combined with his record.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #200 on: October 20, 2011, 11:52:27 AM »
Some of us just like the fact that he's not on the take and he doesn't give a shit about party loyalty.  That makes him truly unique in a system full of crooked assholes. 
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Offline jsem

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #201 on: October 20, 2011, 02:35:45 PM »
I'm not sure what you don't get. RP supporters have no problem admitting and pointing out that he's the black sheep of the Republican Party, but is it really that tough to figure out why? He doesn't run on the GoP's platform, and then he claims that he runs on what the "true" platform of the GoP is, even though he can't factually point to a time when the majority of the GoP shared in his ideology and backed it up with their actions.

People (like most of my family) who've been voting GoP most of their lives see him as a pretender. And, to be brutally honest, that's what he is. In fact, most RP supporters I've met have been people who are anything but actual Republicans. This includes people I know who are left of most democrats, libertarians(not REPUBLICANS for a reason!), and teenagers getting out of their Michael Moore phase. But very few people who actually are card-carrying GoP members.
Ron Paul is much closer to the Old Right, like Robert Taft, than most of the candidates out there.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #202 on: October 20, 2011, 06:42:47 PM »
Some of us just like the fact that he's not on the take and he doesn't give a shit about party loyalty.  That makes him truly unique in a system full of crooked assholes.

All fine and dandy. But that's not what we're talking about. Or, at least not what I thought we were talking about. Which is why Republicans don't like Ron Paul and see him as an intruder.

For what it's worth, though, I don't see him as the White Knight you seem to make him out to be. Filling up bills with a shitload of pork so you have further grounds to vote them down later is pretty scummy. And he's never owned up to his bigoted newsletter.

Quote
Ron Paul is much closer to the Old Right, like Robert Taft, than most of the candidates out there.

How?

Offline unklejman

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #203 on: October 21, 2011, 11:03:41 AM »
Filling up bills with a shitload of pork so you have further grounds to vote them down later is pretty scummy.

No it isn't and I've already discussed why with no response from any one.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #204 on: October 28, 2011, 01:21:03 AM »
BTW, the thing that blows my mind about American politics is that less than 3/4 of the presidential term is over, and the politicians are already on the campaign trail again. I think that's one reason why it's so slow-moving, because there's only a small time window during which the president actually solely focuses on his job.

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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #205 on: October 28, 2011, 05:46:45 AM »
Actually where the study of the presidency is involved, it's said the president is never solely focused on the job. It's called the perpetual campaign; even the legislation he proposes/passes into law somehow go back to his effort towards re-election.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #206 on: October 28, 2011, 06:22:20 AM »
Well, that part is obviously alright. It's the "driving around the country for rallies" that serves no purpose other than election.

rumborak
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #207 on: October 28, 2011, 12:54:06 PM »
Actually where the study of the presidency is involved, it's said the president is never solely focused on the job. It's called the perpetual campaign; even the legislation he proposes/passes into law somehow go back to his effort towards re-election.

There's a difference between campaigning, and getting elected on how you ran a country.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #208 on: October 28, 2011, 07:16:56 PM »
Well sure, but that's where it's all aimed at; it's why political scientists call it the perpetual campaign.
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Offline MasterShakezula

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #209 on: October 28, 2011, 07:19:38 PM »
This perpetual campaigning has made me wonder:

What effect would a (hypothetical) amendment banning any sort of multiple terms in the Fed have on the political ecosystem?