Author Topic: Election 2012  (Read 234848 times)

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Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1155 on: February 07, 2012, 10:37:34 AM »
WTF, they have both?! :lol

The American voting system is one giant clusterfuck, seriously.

rumborak
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Offline unklejman

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1156 on: February 07, 2012, 01:54:32 PM »
Obama didn't do much bailing out, that's historically inaccurate.

He wasn't president for all of the bail outs, but he was for some, and he voted for TARP while in the Senate.

The health care bill was written by Congress, it wasn't written by Obama, and Obama has voiced support in the past for a single-payer system, and was somewhat of an advocate for at least a public option.

But he did not veto it.

Cap and trade isn't motivated by some corporate desire, it's motivated by something else, so it's hard to say he's a corporatist for that.

His relationship with the CEO of General Electric, and the amount they would benefit from that legislation is more than eyebrow raising.

And I think it's equally as weird to claim that corporatism is responsible for why Obama is involved in the Middle East, which is to let the fact go that Obama has reduced our military involvement in the Middle East in a lot of ways

The Iraq draw down followed Bush's time table. Afghanistan escalated under the Obama administration. Libya. Now Syria and possibly Iran.  And as to why it's corporatism... fist Oil interests and then there is this: https://www.militaryindustrialcomplex.com/

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1157 on: February 07, 2012, 02:01:38 PM »
Assuming the economic recovery continues and unemployment goes down, I think Obama will win. Not by a huge margin, but at least a few percentage points. Anyone who either of the major parties nominates is a formidable candidate. There's so much money tied up in these elections, both the Reps and Dems could nominate a potato and it would get 40 percent of the vote.

I don't dispute that Obama has a very good chance of winning a second term.  But he ain't gonna "crush" anyone.  I'd be surprised if the margin were more than 5% to 7% on the popular vote.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1158 on: February 07, 2012, 02:02:14 PM »
Lol unklejman, are you seriously chalking up Syria to Obama?

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Offline unklejman

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1159 on: February 07, 2012, 02:12:51 PM »
I'm just saying that I wouldn't be surprised if we end up with some sort of military presence in that situation.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1160 on: February 07, 2012, 02:14:13 PM »
Lol unklejman, are you seriously chalking up Syria to Obama?

rumborak

Conservatives these days seem pretty desperate to find some albatross to hang around his neck. 

This is a CLASSIC example of the double-standard.  He gets "blamed" by conservatives for getting involved in Libya but when he takes a hands-off approach to Syria he gets the same crap from them.  Obama could walk around shitting 50 pound diamonds and conservatives would find a way to fault him for it.

Offline unklejman

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1161 on: February 07, 2012, 02:24:33 PM »
If your talking to me I'm right here. I actually have made an effort not to play politics of personalities, or football politics for years now. I've only been going on about Obama in this thread because a conversation about him was underway. I threw in one comment about him that was slightly relevant and people have been responding. I honestly don't really feel like talking about it any more.

The preconceptions being cast on me throughout this thread are getting tired and I'm about to just leave the conversation all together since you guys don't need me to know what I think.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1162 on: February 07, 2012, 03:10:02 PM »
Obama didn't do much bailing out, that's historically inaccurate.

He wasn't president for all of the bail outs, but he was for some, and he voted for TARP while in the Senate.

Sometimes it's better to do something than nothing. It's not like there was a reasonable liberal plan on the table, or one that stood a chance of passing.

Quote
The health care bill was written by Congress, it wasn't written by Obama, and Obama has voiced support in the past for a single-payer system, and was somewhat of an advocate for at least a public option.

But he did not veto it.

Because it's still a step forward from where we were. It's actually going to save the government ~150 billion dollars, as without the Bill, and it gets rid of horrible practices like not insuring kids for pre-existing conditions and dropping coverage for people when they get sick. There's plenty of good things in the Bill, and I'd say it outweights any of it's faults. Obama has a yes/no power over legislation, nothing more.

Quote
Cap and trade isn't motivated by some corporate desire, it's motivated by something else, so it's hard to say he's a corporatist for that.

His relationship with the CEO of General Electric, and the amount they would benefit from that legislation is more than eyebrow raising.

Yet hasn't Obama called for the end of all the loopholes and other suck things which allow a company like GE to pay no Federal income tax? Either way, we don't have cap and trade, and considering his stance on Global Warming, it's absurd say this is a decision made from corporatism.

Quote
And I think it's equally as weird to claim that corporatism is responsible for why Obama is involved in the Middle East, which is to let the fact go that Obama has reduced our military involvement in the Middle East in a lot of ways

The Iraq draw down followed Bush's time table. Afghanistan escalated under the Obama administration. Libya. Now Syria and possibly Iran.  And as to why it's corporatism... fist Oil interests and then there is this: https://www.militaryindustrialcomplex.com/

I'm not sure it's corporatism to be interested in the oil fields. It's definitely true that everyone in the country benefits in some way from the low cost of fuel. It's imperialistic.

Iran? There's been no indication whatsoever that Obama has any interest in fighting Iran. In fact, everything I see is just the opposite. I know I've seen headlines about the Obama administration disagreeing with Israel on a military strike in Iran. You cannot blame Obama for Iran being a threat, that's due to years of horrible foreign police - on this I'd be willing to be we fully agree - most recently that of the invasion of Iraq.

Just so ya know, I'm not saying you're not bringing up points I disagree with - I just think it's wrong to say it's Obama being a corporatist, or that those policies are in place for corporatist reasons. Since we're talking about Obama being a Corportists, I sorta need proof that this is intentional, otherwise I say we're being a little unethical.


young people who voted for Obama in the last election who are now turning to Paul
Not sure if it's the same group of young people changing to Paul or if it's a new set of young voters, but this is kind of interesting. To me it says that young people see the need for radical change to the way things work. Obama was supposed to be a change, but he's basically more of the same in most cases. Paul (though at the opposite end of the spectrum politically) is a radical change from the status quo. It's almost like young people don't really care what the change is, they just realize there needs to be a change.

Knowing most people my age, the problem is I'm not sure they all know how the government actually works. They have correct gripes against the Governmnent, but they have undue expectations of how much change a President, any President, can reasonably bring. Quick change is going to mean vast power, which basically means an expansion of Presidential authority.



Offline Super Dude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1163 on: February 07, 2012, 03:20:14 PM »
I mean I think it's within reason to argue that the only way to get a real idea of the weight presidential authority has (or doesn't) is to actively study it. Even as a Politics major, I'm sure the only reason I know what I do is because I had classes that forced me to closely examine the composition of and dynamics within the executive branch.
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As frequently happens, Super Dude nailed it.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1164 on: February 07, 2012, 07:08:02 PM »
On the topic of American government and conspiracy:

https://qkme.me/35y4ok
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1165 on: February 07, 2012, 08:04:55 PM »
Man, RP supporters are the best. Just read this:

"The whole thing is rigged by the damn media and the companies that control them and the government."

:lol Gotta cover all the bases!

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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1166 on: February 07, 2012, 08:10:48 PM »
Where was that??? :lol
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As frequently happens, Super Dude nailed it.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1167 on: February 07, 2012, 08:31:07 PM »
This is all on the Ron Paul forums. It might be mean, but damn it's entertaining to read.

rumborak
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Offline jsem

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1168 on: February 08, 2012, 12:45:50 AM »
It was that CNN poll that pushed Santorum to surge a week or so before Iowa, and Public Policy Polling called the poll phony. Then Santorum wins Iowa.

And now he wins three more states - WHAT IS GOING ON HERE. How can people seriously vote for Santorum.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1169 on: February 08, 2012, 01:16:01 AM »
It was that CNN poll that pushed Santorum to surge a week or so before Iowa, and Public Policy Polling called the poll phony. Then Santorum wins Iowa.

And now he wins three more states - WHAT IS GOING ON HERE. How can people seriously vote for Santorum.

Gingrich wasn't on the ballot in Missouri, and didn't spend much time in those states because I believe most of them don't actually lead to delegates.

I think winning Colorado for Santorum is the biggest.

Oh, interesting to note that I think participation has been low. The republican base is divided and unenthusiastic.

Offline jsem

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1170 on: February 08, 2012, 01:21:35 AM »
This is going to head to a brokered convention for sure.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1171 on: February 08, 2012, 07:46:23 AM »
Oh man. Seriously, now Santorum? I think I will change my name to Ritt Momney and run in the primaries. Should get me some votes as a non-Mitt.
All this shows how sad, sad the GOP has become.

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Offline antigoon

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1172 on: February 08, 2012, 08:09:04 AM »
There's some uber neocon Catholic psycho I graduated college with endorsing Santorum on Facebook, saying he's a "true conservative." He's the only person I know who has any interest in the guy.

Nominating Santorum would be a great way to get me to vote for Obama. Talk about a disaster for the GOP.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1173 on: February 08, 2012, 08:20:49 AM »
I can't help but think that in this context "true conservative" just means "true Christian". If Romney wasn't a Mormon the GOP would fawn over him like Reagan's second coming.

rumborak
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Offline Chino

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1174 on: February 08, 2012, 09:01:37 AM »
Man, RP supporters are the best. Just read this:

"The whole thing is rigged by the damn media and the companies that control them and the government."



rumborak

It's not rigged like you would rig the lottery, but it is to a large degree controlled and guided.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1175 on: February 08, 2012, 09:13:34 AM »
Eh, that border conspiracy theory IMHO.
Ron Paul isn't trailing because there is some shady conglomerate of online and TV channels and GOP officials that tries to shut down RP. The plain reality is that Republicans have looked at him, and after seeing his debates and his stances on things, have just decided it's not what they want. I mean, is it in any way surprising that when a Libertarian who advocates complete non-interventionism, decides to run as a Republican, gets poor reception? I don't think so.
Look at it. Republicans are desperately switching between candidates still because they just can't find that combination of true Christian (i.e. Protestant), military-strong, fiscally responsible and a family guy. Ron Paul simply doesn't have enough match. He totally downplays his Christianity, is not militarily strong, and not that much of a family guy either.

rumborak
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Offline Progmetty

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1176 on: February 08, 2012, 09:14:23 AM »
Everyone has a bunch of dumb ass supporters among their fan base. rumborak seems overly obsessed with the Ron Paul ones  even though you'd find amazing talents of the same caliber in the other GOP nominees internet discussion spots. I still don't have the guts to check out any Rick Santorum internet gathering :lol
I wouldn't want somebody with 18 kids to mow my damn lawn, based on a longstanding bias I have against crazy fucks.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1177 on: February 08, 2012, 09:19:10 AM »
To be honest, the only reason why I latch on to RP is because there are (or at least used to be) so many supporters of him on this forum, and I've recently taken to reading threads on the RP forum. It's a very interesting exercise in seeing people justifying to themselves why they aren't winning. The "explanations" are numerous of course; from conspiracy theories to voter fraud, to blaming the campaign managers etc. etc. The only one who never gets questioned is the man himself. He enjoys near-Jesus status there.
And yeah, of course every candidate will have those kinds of supporters. RP ones are just very vocal, and they use the internet a lot.

rumborak
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Offline Progmetty

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1178 on: February 08, 2012, 09:33:09 AM »
I admire your honesty about the reason you latched on RP so much but it's always been pretty obvious :D
10$ says you're bound to find something way funnier on a NG or RS forum when they're completely out of the race.
I wouldn't want somebody with 18 kids to mow my damn lawn, based on a longstanding bias I have against crazy fucks.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1179 on: February 08, 2012, 09:38:23 AM »
Well, RP is also more interesting because his supporters claim a certain superior understanding of issues (especially financial), where I personally find (if anything) the opposite to be true. I would imagine the supporters of NG or MR to be much more general-fare in their views. RS forums I would imagine would just have Christian threads over and over, which would just be annoying to read.

That said, I think my lurking phase is over too. The GOP race doesn't look anywhere near done, and the thing is just soooo damn stretched out. I expect Gingrich to drop out at some point, Santorum to drop to his previous levels once his surge is over, Romney getting the nomination, and Paul just not knowing when to quit. His delegate strategy is obviously not working.

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« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 09:44:05 AM by rumborak »
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Offline jsem

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1180 on: February 08, 2012, 11:01:29 AM »
How do you know his delegate strategy isn't working?

The delegates of the caucus states won't be finally known until the respective State Conventions, which are in June. No one can project the # of unbound delegates of these caucus states.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1181 on: February 08, 2012, 11:23:29 AM »
I don't know the intricacies of the delegate voting system, but I can tell you that the GOP will make sure a candidate who's been trailing in every single state will not be a nominee. Face it, Ron Paul is right now the rag doll of the other candidates; the real "war" is fought between Gingrich, Santorum and Romney, with Paul feeding on the scraps as they fall by the wayside. It's also the reason for that supposed "media blackout", because the media focuses on the meat of the battle, not on a candidate who they perceive will sooner or later run out of support and money.

rumborak
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 11:28:30 AM by rumborak »
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1182 on: February 08, 2012, 01:20:39 PM »
It certainly is a fascinating primary.  I kind of expected Santorum to do OK in Missouri and maybe in Minnesota but I have to admit being pretty surprised by the Colorado vote.   :lol

If you really want a good laugh about this whacko, read these quotes.   :facepalm:


Offline unklejman

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1183 on: February 08, 2012, 01:29:20 PM »
I don't know the intricacies of the delegate voting system, but I can tell you that the GOP will make sure a candidate who's been trailing in every single state will not be a nominee.

This was in an update from the Paul campaign. I don't know how relevant it is, but here it is:

Quote
We are confident in gaining a much larger share of delegates than even our impressive showing yesterday indicates. As an example of our campaign’s delegate strength, take a look at what has occurred in Colorado:

In one precinct in Larimer County, the straw poll vote was 23 for Santorum, 13 for Paul, 5 for Romney, 2 for Gingrich. There were 13 delegate slots, and Ron Paul got ALL 13.

In a precinct in Delta County the vote was 22 for Santorum, 12 for Romney, 8 for Paul, 7 for Gingrich. There were 5 delegate slots, and ALL 5 went to Ron Paul.

In a Pueblo County precinct, the vote was 16 for Santorum, 11 for Romney, 3 for Gingrich and 2 for Paul. There were 2 delegate slots filled, and both were filled by Ron Paul supporters.

We are also seeing the same trends in Minnesota, Nevada, and Iowa, and in Missouri as well.

“We may well win Minnesota, and do far better in Colorado than yesterday’s polls indicate."

Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1184 on: February 08, 2012, 02:01:29 PM »
OK, somebody needs to explain to me then, how can it be that the delegates fly in the face of the public opinion? Isn't the point that the delegates represent their constituency?
I may be going on a limb here, by if RP supporters just stick around long enough to be delegates and then intend to do whatever they please at the RNC, I'm pretty sure the RP movement will pay dearly.

rumborak
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Offline unklejman

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1185 on: February 08, 2012, 02:06:30 PM »
lol GOP?

Offline jsem

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1186 on: February 08, 2012, 03:07:51 PM »
OK, somebody needs to explain to me then, how can it be that the delegates fly in the face of the public opinion? Isn't the point that the delegates represent their constituency?
I may be going on a limb here, by if RP supporters just stick around long enough to be delegates and then intend to do whatever they please at the RNC, I'm pretty sure the RP movement will pay dearly.

rumborak
Pay dearly?

The delegates game is fair play - fortunately or unfortunately. Paul didn't make up the rules, his supporters didn't make up the rules - but none were broken.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1187 on: February 08, 2012, 03:19:06 PM »
Do you really think RP would get away with being nominated when only having a 10% public support? Just because one can undermine an inherently flawed process doesn't mean people are going to just shrug away the process of doing so. Especially not when it comes to a presidential election.

rumborak
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Offline unklejman

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1188 on: February 08, 2012, 03:27:35 PM »
Do you really think RP would get away with being nominated when only having a 10% public support?

21% at this point according to national polls.  But I know what you are saying.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1189 on: February 08, 2012, 03:31:39 PM »
That's the highest. According to realclearpolitics the average is 15%.

I think it's somewhat moot though. Unless he generates momentum soon he will run out of money. From what I read the recent "money bombs" have fizzled out.

rumborak
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