Author Topic: Election 2012  (Read 124656 times)

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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #105 on: October 14, 2011, 11:49:13 AM »
For those of us ignorant to the particulars of health policy, what is a single payer system?

It's basically health-care funded by a single public entity, from a single fund.  The advantages are that it dramatically reduces administrative overhead, which is currently the greatest contributing factor to skyrocketing health-care costs.

Offline antigoon

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #106 on: October 14, 2011, 11:55:01 AM »
Right. And, from my limited knowledge, what we got instead was more or less a giant handout to the healthcare industry with some goodies thrown our way. It seems that any meaningful healthcare reform would need to wholly eliminate the antitrust exemption for health insurance companies.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #107 on: October 14, 2011, 11:56:48 AM »
For those of us ignorant to the particulars of health policy, what is a single payer system?

It's basically health-care funded by a single public entity, from a single fund.  The advantages are that it dramatically reduces administrative overhead, which is currently the greatest contributing factor to skyrocketing health-care costs.

It's important to note, that single-payer does not mean single administration, etc. Conservatives always make that jump, which is annoying.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #108 on: October 14, 2011, 11:59:03 AM »
Right. And, from my limited knowledge, what we got instead was more or less a giant handout to the healthcare industry with some goodies thrown our way. It seems that any meaningful healthcare reform would need to wholly eliminate the antitrust exemption for health insurance companies.

The health-care law that the Obama administration got passed was a watered-down piece of crap.   So, yeah. 

A public, single-payer system would have DRASTICALLY reduced costs over the next decade.  Instead we got something that MIGHT just keep costs flat, if that.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #109 on: October 14, 2011, 12:00:52 PM »
For those of us ignorant to the particulars of health policy, what is a single payer system?

It's basically health-care funded by a single public entity, from a single fund.  The advantages are that it dramatically reduces administrative overhead, which is currently the greatest contributing factor to skyrocketing health-care costs.

It's important to note, that single-payer does not mean single administration, etc. Conservatives always make that jump, which is annoying.

Good point!  I oversimplified it out of laziness, but the Wiki on Single Payer is actually pretty decent:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-payer_health_care


Offline El Barto

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #110 on: October 14, 2011, 12:04:57 PM »
uh, no.  The MA law has NOT been an abysmal failure.  In fact, despite my general distaste for the personal mandate in the MA law and in the Obama law, the facts are clear:  It has been extremely successful.  You can read more about the success of the MA healthcare law here:  http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2011/04/mvf_healthcare_mass.html

Romney is just parsing words with his criticism of Obama's law, mostly because he doesn't have any choice if he wants to get elected.

Frankly, I think Obama's health care law sucks, but that's because I wanted a SINGLE PAYER system.
And here we agree completely.  I actually can understand why a few people might have gotten it worse under RomneyCare,  but overall it certainly appears to have been quite successful. 

The fascinating thing about Obama's dogshit plan is under McCain we would have gotten an identical bill,  and the Republicans would be defending to their deaths. 

As for single payer,  I'd certainly prefer it for a nation that likes to boast of being the greatest nation on Earth,  but the bottom line is that as long as healthcare is so ridiculously overpriced (especially for what we get),  then it doesn't really matter who pays for it. 
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Offline zxlkho

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #111 on: October 14, 2011, 12:25:28 PM »
Right. And, from my limited knowledge, what we got instead was more or less a giant handout to the healthcare industry with some goodies thrown our way. It seems that any meaningful healthcare reform would need to wholly eliminate the antitrust exemption for health insurance companies.

As an economist...
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #112 on: October 14, 2011, 12:53:21 PM »
I can dig it. Hell, paint me pink and call me a socialist.
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Offline jsem

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #113 on: October 14, 2011, 05:20:12 PM »
Herman Cain is really disturbing to me. He's never going to win the primary though, which is a good thing.

9-9-9 is simply laughable and.. seriously. HE THINKS GREENSPAN WAS GOOD? WHAT!?

Offline snapple

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #114 on: October 14, 2011, 05:21:56 PM »
HE THINKS GREENSPAN WAS GOOD? WHAT!?

Compared to Bernanke? I would agree with that statement.
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Offline pogoowner

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #115 on: October 14, 2011, 05:51:55 PM »
HE THINKS GREENSPAN WAS GOOD? WHAT!?

Compared to Bernanke? I would agree with that statement.
They've both done essentially the same thing as far as I can tell, so I don't see how one is better than the other. The shit just hadn't quite hit the fan yet under Greenspan (though he contributed to it doing so).

Offline antigoon

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #116 on: October 14, 2011, 07:10:16 PM »
Greenspan was a deplorable piece of shit.

Offline MetalMike06

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #117 on: October 14, 2011, 10:08:51 PM »
Herman Cain is really disturbing to me. He's never going to win the primary though, which is a good thing.

9-9-9 is simply laughable and.. seriously. HE THINKS GREENSPAN WAS GOOD? WHAT!?

What's even more disturbing is that merely a week before the financial crisis occured, he basically gave the economy a clean bill of health.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #118 on: October 14, 2011, 10:12:31 PM »
It took the man his whole professional lifetime to realize that the market isn't infallible. That just blew me away.

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Offline livehard

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #119 on: October 18, 2011, 09:48:50 AM »
For those of us ignorant to the particulars of health policy, what is a single payer system?

It's basically health-care funded by a single public entity, from a single fund.  The advantages are that it dramatically reduces administrative overhead, which is currently the greatest contributing factor to skyrocketing health-care costs.

haha you think its going to reduce administrative costs? as compared to what our current socialist system or a private system?

People are insane, you hand out free health care, what do you think is going to happen?  What happens to demand when you drop the price of something to zero? This is simple stuff.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #120 on: October 18, 2011, 12:24:06 PM »
Hmm, if I didn't know better, I'd say that you just called me "insane" in that post  :coolio

Administrative costs are 4 times higher here in the US than they are in Ontario, Canada where they have a single payer system.


Offline livehard

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #121 on: October 18, 2011, 12:28:58 PM »
Hmm, if I didn't know better, I'd say that you just called me "insane" in that post  :coolio

Administrative costs are 4 times higher here in the US than they are in Ontario, Canada where they have a single payer system.

Well as Einstein said insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different results.  Most Americans support trying to fix these problems through government intervention and we keep getting deeper and deeper into the mess.  So in that respect, many people are insane.  I want a new solution, one that suggests that government IS the problem.

Offline wasteland

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #122 on: October 18, 2011, 12:32:48 PM »
Hmm, if I didn't know better, I'd say that you just called me "insane" in that post  :coolio

Administrative costs are 4 times higher here in the US than they are in Ontario, Canada where they have a single payer system.

Well as Einstein said insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different results.  Most Americans support trying to fix these problems through government intervention and we keep getting deeper and deeper into the mess.  So in that respect, many people are insane.  I want a new solution, one that suggests that government IS the problem.

Didn't this happen with Reagan 30 years ago?
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #123 on: October 18, 2011, 02:51:07 PM »
For those of us ignorant to the particulars of health policy, what is a single payer system?

It's basically health-care funded by a single public entity, from a single fund.  The advantages are that it dramatically reduces administrative overhead, which is currently the greatest contributing factor to skyrocketing health-care costs.

haha you think its going to reduce administrative costs? as compared to what our current socialist system or a private system?

People are insane, you hand out free health care, what do you think is going to happen?  What happens to demand when you drop the price of something to zero? This is simple stuff.

Look at every other modern country in the world, look at their health care systems, and compare costs. We spend more in the US than anyone.

Medicare, a single-payer style system, has lower administrative costs, and lower rising costs, than the private market place.

It's not free health care. It's universal health care. It's paid for by tax dollars, the only people it's free for are those who literally cannot afford it.

It's not demanding the price drop to zero, but rather that profits are capped / moderated. There are many non-profit organizations out there, whom all have employee's, pay them, and take in money. One possible role of government could to be to help set up trust funds (one time loans, which can be repaid) to set up non-profit health insurance co-ops, or health insurance companies (I believe something like this was in "Obamacare", but hasn't taken effect).

Back to Medicare - people love it, and can't wait to get on it. Threatening Medicare is very dangerous politically, but most Americans like it - they just don't know it's because of government involvement (which blows my mind).

Why is a single payer system, i.e. vouchers, a good way to deal with educational system, but it's a horrid way to deal with health care?

Offline livehard

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #124 on: October 18, 2011, 02:57:36 PM »
Im confused how is a voucher system a single payer system? A voucher system you would have the individual go out into the market and choose an insurance plan for themselves from a bunch of competing companies. I might be misunderstanding the definition of single payer

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #125 on: October 18, 2011, 04:28:24 PM »
Because the voucher is basically specialized money. You get a voucher, the government pays the voucher to the school for your kid to attend. Many single payer systems are similar, as a citizen goes to a health care provider, and than the government pays for that service rendered.

But ya, you could have a voucher system much like you describe, where people go to insurance companies, and the government subsidizes the costs. I think it would actually be somewhat close to Medicare / Medicaid, but I'm not precisely sure how closely they would be.

Offline 73109

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #126 on: October 18, 2011, 04:55:24 PM »
Who's going to watch Cain and Romney verbally fellate themselves tonight? I figure it would make for some fun TV.

Offline zxlkho

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #127 on: October 18, 2011, 04:57:55 PM »
What time/channel/etc. ?
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Offline 73109

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #128 on: October 18, 2011, 04:59:16 PM »
8 eastern on CNN

Offline jsem

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #129 on: October 18, 2011, 05:00:18 PM »
I always watch the day afterwards, it's 1am now.

It'd be disastrous if Cain got anywhere.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #130 on: October 18, 2011, 05:01:19 PM »
Who's going to watch Cain and Romney verbally fellate themselves tonight? I figure it would make for some fun TV.
Since they won't be able to ignore Cain this time around,  I might check it out.  I understand he actually tries to stay on topic,  so I'd actually like to see that.

This is assuming it's viewable to those of us with the good sense to not pay for cable. 


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Offline zxlkho

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #131 on: October 18, 2011, 05:01:31 PM »
I'll check it out. I'm curious how they'll address the Occupy movement.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #132 on: October 18, 2011, 05:33:37 PM »
I'm curious how they'll address the Occupy movement.
That's an easy one.  They'll blame Obama.  "These people are angry, and given the state of things,  they have every right to be.  The solution to theirs,  and all of our problems is to get rid of Obama and elect me so I can turn this nation around and give them the opportunity to work and prosper!"
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Offline jsem

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #133 on: October 18, 2011, 06:23:54 PM »
Ron Paul has been addressing the Occupy movement for some time actually. You see a bunch of "End The Fed" signs over there too.

Offline zxlkho

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #134 on: October 18, 2011, 06:27:14 PM »
Literally none of this debate is productive. They say the same shit over and over.
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Offline 73109

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #135 on: October 18, 2011, 06:55:01 PM »
This is so funny. :lol

Watching Rick Perry getting owned gave me a laugh.

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #136 on: October 18, 2011, 06:57:23 PM »
This is so funny. :lol

Watching Rick Perry getting owned gave me a laugh.

I think attacking Mitt Romney backfired for him :lol
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Offline 73109

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #137 on: October 18, 2011, 06:58:27 PM »
Agreed. No one is actually answering any questions that they're asked. I want them to start asking social questions. That should be some fun.


Offline zxlkho

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #138 on: October 18, 2011, 07:11:14 PM »
Why is Ron Paul so awesome?
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Offline 73109

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #139 on: October 18, 2011, 07:11:55 PM »
Rankings!!!!!!!

Romney
Paul








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