Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album

[jingle.boy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bFYD3JmKk6M#t=1886

Oh gawd.  More like they don't believe in talent/practicing.  They'd be better off having The Hands of Praise Deaf Choir doing background vocals.

"My only hope is one day I'll forget".

I feel the same.

[Cruithne]

The most shocking part of everything you mention is that it reveals you watched/listened to more than 3 minutes of this.

One part rubbernecking, one part Schadenfreude...

[bosk1]

For those who subjected themselves to that and need to cleanse your pallet, here are some clips of the real Queensryche in Europe over the last couple of weeks:

Queen Of The Reich (Ichendorf/Bergheim - Burghaus Quadrath - Oct. 26th 2013):  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM170tBZ1BM

Roads To Madness (Ichendorf/Bergheim - Burghaus Quadrath - Oct. 26th 2013):  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aRc4umHH-o

The Warning (Oct. 27, 2013 - Ludwigsburg, Germany):  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Edrwqx9lAjo

[El JoNNo]

Bosk, as I understand you have been a fan from very early on. Has Geoff's voice change been much of a "painful" sticking point for you? Or has the transition over the years made it bearable?

Myself for example, I love the early stuff. More specifically The Warning album. However, I was made aware of QR maybe less than 10 years ago, and first heard the newer stuff shortly after the old stuff. So the contrast all at once was more noticeable.

[bosk1]

Bosk, as I understand you have been a fan from very early on. Has Geoff's voice change been much of a "painful" sticking point for you? Or has the transition over the years made it bearable?

I came onboard during the Mindcrime cycle, which felt a little late at the time, but, yeah,  I guess it does feel "very early on" in hindsight.    For me, it's a bit of both.  His voice actually started to deteriorate as early as Promised Land.  But during the period from Promised Land through probably Tribe, it was more gradual and less noticeable--at least on the studio albums.  Personally, I think Geoff was fine in the studio.  And I didn't see the band live much during that period.  He was still pretty good when I saw them on the Promised Land tour, decent but a bit hit-and-miss here and there at the Live Evolution shows, and acceptable for the material they played on the Queensryche/DT tour (Tribe).  So his decline didn't bother me at first. 

After Tribe, his studio vocals really started sounding bad, and the live shows were even more spotty.  That's when it did bother me.  He sounded OK on most of Mindcrime II, and despite some strong tracks, that album had enough other problems that overshadowed Geoff's singing issues.  But the covers album was just embarassing.  And American Soldier was very disappointing to me.  The music and concept were terrific, but Geoff is by far the weakest link and ruins an otherwise stellar album.  That, to me, was the major turning point.  I had notice the problems beforehand, but with those two releases, I twice found myself saying things like, "What is wrong with the world when Geoff Tate's singing is the weakest link on an album?" 

So, yeah, it eventually did become a major sticking point for me.  That, combined with his awful personality, combined with bad, BAD management and creative decisions, combined with the rest of the band disconnecting had me completely turned off for a good 5 years or so before they fired him and brought Todd onboard.  From 1990 to 1999, they were my favorite band.  For a little stretch of time fairly recently, I wouldn't even buy their albums (the completist in me had to get Dedicated To Chaos, but I refused to buy it new and give any money to the Tates, so I waited over a year until I found a used copy).  Now, they're back among my favorites.  I don't see them ever retaking the top spot (or even the top 3), but they're back in the upper echelon as far as I'm concerned.

[Lowdz]

For those who subjected themselves to that and need to cleanse your pallet, here are some clips of the real Queensryche in Europe over the last couple of weeks:

Queen Of The Reich (Ichendorf/Bergheim - Burghaus Quadrath - Oct. 26th 2013):  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM170tBZ1BM

Roads To Madness (Ichendorf/Bergheim - Burghaus Quadrath - Oct. 26th 2013):  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aRc4umHH-o

The Warning (Oct. 27, 2013 - Ludwigsburg, Germany):  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Edrwqx9lAjo

It's like night and day. Todd has saved my once-favourite band. Tate is now beyond embarrassing.

[fibreoptix]

(that intro to Best I Can - just lol)

I'm actually revelling in the irony that the intro to a song called Best I Can sounds so utterly terrible.

[bosk1]

The thought process sparked by El Jonno's question to me inspired me to do a quick ranking:

1.  Empire:  For the longest time, Promised Land occupied my top spot.  It is very close between those two albums.  And some days, I would say PL is tops.  But Empire is just so good and has so many great songs that stand the test of time.  It gets the #1 spot for now.
2.  Promised Land:  Great album.  Virtually flawless.
3.  Mindcrime:  I feel like I kind of outgrew this story quite some time ago.  But I still respect this album's legacy, and there are some top-notch songs on here.
4.  Queensryche (self titled):  Maybe after the newness wears off some more, I'll drop this one below Rage.  But it's a great return to form and, in many ways, is superior to a lot of their earlier work.  It's major flaw is song-lengths and resulting album length.  A few songs needed to be longer and more developed, and the album as a whole needed another couple of songs.
5.  Hear In The Now Frontier:  I love this album.  There, I said it.  Shut up.
6.  Rage For Order:  I love the experimentation.  They really stretched out into some new directions for a metal band, and it paid off.
7.  Warning:  Bit of a drop-off here from the ones above it, but still a solid effort.
8.  American Soldier:  This would be close to cracking my top 3 if the vocals were even halfway decent.
9.  Tribe:  Some VERY solid songs; some clunkers.  Perhaps their most inconistent album overall.
10.  Mindcrime II:  Without opening up the debate about whether it was a good idea to even do a sequel to Mindcrime, this was a missed opportunity.  There was some terrific material to work with.  But the last 1/3 of the album is a HUGE disappointment, both in terms of song quality AND concept/story.
11.  Q2K:  A couple of good tunes, and a lot of completely unmemorable ones.  And unlike a lot of people, I don't think Howl would have redeemed the album even a little bit had it been included.
12.  Take Cover:  Normally, I wouldn't even list a covers album.  But some of the song choices were excellent, and musically, they did some pretty cool things.  But the vocals are SO bad.  Just embarassing.
13.  Dedicated To Chaos:  I gave this a fair listen.  That is all it deserved.  A used copy sits in my CD collection only because I am a completist and had to have it simply by virtue of the name on the sleeve.  Terrible album.  There is not a single song that I ever want to hear again.

EP not ranked because it's a 4 song EP.

[jammindude]

I *have* been around from the beginning.       (I actually remember when they played "Queen of the Reich" on KZOK...I believe I owned the EP on the original 502 label on cassette...but that's long since been stolen...I bought The Warning the day it was released)

Here's my ranking...

1. Rage For Order - As much as I loved the EP, The Warning was just ok for me at first....so I wasn't chomping at the bit to get Rage.   But then a friend let me borrow it on cassette.   Didn't like like Walk in the Shadows AT ALL, and I thought the rest was weird.  But...just like all my other favorite albums...after about 10 spins I was absolutely HOOKED.   This is still one of the most amazing and important albums in the history of progressive rock.  Neue Regal is my 2nd favorite all time QR track.

2. Promised Land - I pretty much consider this "Rage for Order with a budget"...the only way I can excuse Empire (which was way too commercial for me) is to tell myself that they did it to finance the album they *really* wanted to make.   But given the reports I've heard of the state of the band at the time...it's becoming harder to convince myself of that.   I Am I, Dis Con Ec Ted, the title track and Damaged are all absolutely amazing.

3. Operation: Mindcrime - Tracks 1-9 maybe just about the greatest run of music in their career.   I never cared for Breaking the Silence, and kinda always thought Eyes of a Stranger was over-rated.   I like the chorus, but the verses are too "sappy".   Suite Sister Mary is the greatest QR song ever.  Honorable mentions to Speak and The Mission. 

4. Queensryche (The EP) - This is where it started.  It may only be four tracks...but it's perfection.   I'm a bit burnt out on Lady...but QotR is still amazing, and Blinded is a lost classic.

5. The Warning - I still hate the production...and Geoff's phrasings and melody choices (IMO) are really jarring and not fluent, and just overall not that great.   But the songs did grow on me over time.   Sick of Take Hold of the Flame, but I can see its charm.  Roads to Madness and No Sanctuary are my favs...but Before the Storm/Child of the Fire have become all time classics as well.   And then of course, there is the always amazing NM 156.

6. Queensryche (The Album) - This is really still climbing.   Not sure it will ever be up with the classics...but at least it feels like classic QR.   I'm very pleased with it, and it can flip-flop with The Warning at any given moment.   I can't see anything touching the top 4 ever. 

7. Empire - It's grown on me a bit over time.  I really hated it when it first came out (except for the title track).   But most of the songs won me over...and I reluctantly have to admit that this is a pretty good album.   I still CANNOT STAND Jet City Woman and Another Rainy Night....terrible songs.   But love Silent Lucidity, Della Brown, Best I Can and Anybody Listening?

8. Tribe - It's been so long since I've listened to anything past Empire on this list...so from here on out, I'm going from distant memory...and referring back to an "album discussion" series I did back at MP.com several years ago.    I seem to remember that there was some pretty decent stuff on here....about half of it seemed to harken back to former glory.   Other ideas didn't do so well.

9. Operation: Mindcrime II - There are some good tracks here...but as a sequel to OMC, it is an abysmal failure.   Worst ending of any QR record EVER.   I still really like Hands.  Dio's guest voice was pretty cool.   

10. Hear in the Now Frontier -  HEY!  QR did a grunge album!.....6 years after grunge peaked....how original.     

11. Q2Krap - As bad as this album is...the final track (The Right Side of My Mind) may be in the all time top 5 QR songs.   I consider that song to be the last dying gasp of the classic QR.    How that song, which is very near perfection, could be on such a stinkburger of an album is beyond me. 

I have never heard American Soldier or Dedicated to Chaos.   In the case of the latter...it sounds like I'm not missing much.  I may have to check out the former at some point, as I've heard a great many luke warm reviews about it. 

[Nel]

I have never heard American Soldier or Dedicated to Chaos.   In the case of the latter...it sounds like I'm not missing much.  I may have to check out the former at some point, as I've heard a great many luke warm reviews about it.

Keep it that way, man. For your sanity. The only thing I could even remotely recommend from DTC is At The Edge. And that's for the music itself, if you can get past Tate shitting all over it with his warblegarble.

[jjrock88]

I noticed a decline in Geoffs vocals starting with Q2K and Live Evolution. I just figured it was with age; however it seemed that he was making modifications with his vocals and I still thought he sounded very good.  He still sounded good to me on tribe and om2. However, the first time I heard Take Cover I did a double take. How on earth is the low point of a QR release Tate's vocals. Tough to accept for fans. Wasn't impressed with AS and DTC is my all time most hated album. For me, the Tate era ended at om2 and I ended up tossing out TC, AS and DTC. I just pretend they don't exist.

1) Operation Mindcrime- my favorite disc of all time

2) Promised Land- awesome atmospheric classic

3) EP

4) Warning

5) Rage for Order

6) S/T- could be switched with any of the three above

7) Empire- pretty commercial, but still fantastic

8) HINF

9) OM2

10) Tribe

11) Q2K

[NunoTenniscourt]

I don't know if it's been mentioned anywhere in this thread already, but Geoff was a long time smoker, which may have very well taken its toll on him vocally at some point.
He may even still smoke today, I'm not certain.

[Lowdz]

I don't know if it's been mentioned anywhere in this thread already, but Geoff was a long time smoker, which may have very well taken its toll on him vocally at some point.
He may even still smoke today, I'm not certain.

Oh it's been mentioned alright! 
Career suicide for a singer. Like a guitarist playing 5 finger fillet evry hour of the day. Blindfolded. After being spun round a few times.

It's just plain silly and shows he just doesn't care.
I would be too embarrasssed to get up there in fron t of thousands (hundreds?) of people to sing that badly. Not even for the money.

[wolfking]

Another thing I find amusing is that Geoff seems to find this backing band totally acceptable.  He is on stage having a great time and even miming the horrid backing vocals with the crowd.  What is he seriously thinking.  He had 3-4 of the best musicians working with him for decades, he knows what a band should sound like.  Which is why it's so bizarre that this trainwreck seems perfectly valid.

[NunoTenniscourt]

I don't know if it's been mentioned anywhere in this thread already, but Geoff was a long time smoker, which may have very well taken its toll on him vocally at some point.
He may even still smoke today, I'm not certain.

Oh it's been mentioned alright! 
Career suicide for a singer. Like a guitarist playing 5 finger fillet evry hour of the day. Blindfolded. After being spun round a few times.

It's just plain silly and shows he just doesn't care.
I would be too embarrasssed to get up there in fron t of thousands (hundreds?) of people to sing that badly. Not even for the money.

There have been singers who have smoked without any adverse affects to their vocals, but I would venture to say they are the minority. It's just not a good idea
as a singer to take the risk. It can not only dry out the vocal cords, but diminish lung capacity necessary for quality support.

As for Tate himself, being a long time Queensryche fan, I defended the guy for so damn long, but I eventually reached my breaking point. What's happened with him has been nothing but sad and disappointing.

[Cruithne]

Another thing I find amusing is that Geoff seems to find this backing band totally acceptable.  He is on stage having a great time and even miming the horrid backing vocals with the crowd.  What is he seriously thinking.  He had 3-4 of the best musicians working with him for decades, he knows what a band should sound like.  Which is why it's so bizarre that this trainwreck seems perfectly valid.

According to Ross Halfin Metallica gave them the name Krellryche back in the day. The way Tate behaves you have to wonder if not everyone in the band stopped the habit...

[ZirconBlue]

Hey, you guys all forgot to include Frequency Unknown in your album rankings!

[Mister Gold]

Another thing I find amusing is that Geoff seems to find this backing band totally acceptable.  He is on stage having a great time and even miming the horrid backing vocals with the crowd.  What is he seriously thinking.  He had 3-4 of the best musicians working with him for decades, he knows what a band should sound like.  Which is why it's so bizarre that this trainwreck seems perfectly valid.

It's like that old saying about how if you drink enough beers, even the most unappealing chick in the world might look like the hottest babe in the world. Only here it's the music.

Hey, you guys all forgot to include Frequency Unknown in your album rankings!

That's because it's not a Queensryche album.

[MoraWintersoul]

Hey, you guys all forgot to include Frequency Unknown in your album rankings!

That's because it's not a Queensryche album.

Green is the color of sarcasm on DTF

[bosk1]

Smoking does destroy the voice.  Singers who still sound good and who smoke are generally NOT cases where smoking didn't damage their voices, but more are cases where they were lucky in that it didn't damage the sound of their voice too much and they learned to compensate for it and still sound decent. 

But in Tate's case, it isn't just the smoking that is the issue.  He is a long-time smoker, long-time drinker, and long-time...participant in other things that damage the vocal cords.  He also has refused to do the basis things that keep the voice in shape, such as (1) rehearse, and (2) do proper warmups.  And he admits as much.  But where he gets into truly bilzarro land is that he is competely unrepentant about it and thinks he doesn't need to and just can't be bothered, and he thinks he sounds just fine.  His attitude is (paraphrase):  "I don't need to do anything different.  I've been doing this for a long time and know what I'm doing, and no other singer, vocal coach, etc. can tell me how to sing or take care of my voice.  If you don't like the way I sound, that's not my problem.  You just don't understand the kind of art I am making.  I'm not going to try to sing the way I used to because I don't want to be stuck in the past, and I'm completely over that style."  And, yes, that is a paraphrase, but it is NOT an exaggeration.  He has said words to the effect of everything I just said on several occasions.

Contrast that with Ray Alder.  Ray also smoked, drank, and did other things that had an effect on his voice.  He also has lost a lot of his range.  But even though he abused his voice, he also did some of the things a singer needs to do to take care of it.  So while his range is gone and he at times struggles with pitch in a live setting, he at least still has a voice that can sound good in its limited range.  He has something he can work with.  And he also has a much different attitude.  He admits he probably partied too much, and that that had an effect.  And he admits he can't sing the way he used to.  And my understanding is that he still wants to have fun out on the road and be who he is (which may include doing some things that aren't the best things for a singer to be doing), he has toned it down and tried to take a little bit better care of himself.  I have a lot more respect for someone like him than I do for Tate.

[jingle.boy]

long-time...participant in other things that damage the vocal cords. 

Smoking sausage?

[El JoNNo]

Bosk is 100% correct. Smoking is a range killer, it swells the vocal folds. In order for a higher pitch to be produced the vocal folds need to come together and thin out; opposite for a lower pitch. However, smoking causes the vocal folds to swell and fluid builds within them. This swell prevents them from thinning out and coming together. Too much swelling and it's permanent, and requires surgery to correct. 

[MoraWintersoul]

long-time...participant in other things that damage the vocal cords. 

Smoking sausage?

This is close to the Serbian slang expression for "sucking d***", so

[bosk1]

That's just strange.  Are dice made out of candy in Serbia?  We don't generally suck dice in the rest of the civilized world as far as I'm aware.  Although, to be honest, some of the crystal D&D dice in different colors did look kinda yummy when I was a kid.

[El JoNNo]

[ariich]

The thought process sparked by El Jonno's question to me inspired me to do a quick ranking:

1.  Empire:  For the longest time, Promised Land occupied my top spot.  It is very close between those two albums.  And some days, I would say PL is tops.  But Empire is just so good and has so many great songs that stand the test of time.  It gets the #1 spot for now.
2.  Promised Land:  Great album.  Virtually flawless.
3.  Mindcrime:  I feel like I kind of outgrew this story quite some time ago.  But I still respect this album's legacy, and there are some top-notch songs on here.
4.  Queensryche (self titled):  Maybe after the newness wears off some more, I'll drop this one below Rage.  But it's a great return to form and, in many ways, is superior to a lot of their earlier work.  It's major flaw is song-lengths and resulting album length.  A few songs needed to be longer and more developed, and the album as a whole needed another couple of songs.
5.  Hear In The Now Frontier:  I love this album.  There, I said it.  Shut up.
6.  Rage For Order:  I love the experimentation.  They really stretched out into some new directions for a metal band, and it paid off.
7.  Warning:  Bit of a drop-off here from the ones above it, but still a solid effort.
8.  American Soldier:  This would be close to cracking my top 3 if the vocals were even halfway decent.
9.  Tribe:  Some VERY solid songs; some clunkers.  Perhaps their most inconistent album overall.
10.  Mindcrime II:  Without opening up the debate about whether it was a good idea to even do a sequel to Mindcrime, this was a missed opportunity.  There was some terrific material to work with.  But the last 1/3 of the album is a HUGE disappointment, both in terms of song quality AND concept/story.
11.  Q2K:  A couple of good tunes, and a lot of completely unmemorable ones.  And unlike a lot of people, I don't think Howl would have redeemed the album even a little bit had it been included.
12.  Take Cover:  Normally, I wouldn't even list a covers album.  But some of the song choices were excellent, and musically, they did some pretty cool things.  But the vocals are SO bad.  Just embarassing.
13.  Dedicated To Chaos:  I gave this a fair listen.  That is all it deserved.  A used copy sits in my CD collection only because I am a completist and had to have it simply by virtue of the name on the sleeve.  Terrible album.  There is not a single song that I ever want to hear again.

EP not ranked because it's a 4 song EP.

But bosk, you left out Frequency Unknown!

[Cool Chris]

(I actually remember when they played "Queen of the Reich" on KZOK...

 

I actually did an hour show on KZOK a long time ago. Met Steve Slaton a couple times.

[Ruba]

5.  Hear In The Now Frontier:  I love this album.  There, I said it.  Shut up.

 

[kirksnosehair]

I only like 2 QR albums:  Mindcrime and Empire


There are assorted tracks from the other albums that are pretty cool, but I own most of them and rarely listen to them.  I have a "best of" disc I picked up somewhere that has most of their best songs on it and I toss that in every once in a while.  Didn't really connect with the s/t album with the new vocalist, but I think they laid a decent foundation upon which to build themselves back up and regain some credibility.


I'm trying to think of another artist who has crashed -in public- this hard?  I think Geoff Tate wins that category hands down.

[Lowdz]

If you can't even sound decent in the studio these days, with all the help available, it's the end. tate got there some time ago. But as Bosk paraphrased, it's his art, man 

and btw Bosk1, always wanted to ask, does your handle come from the John Norman novels? Tarl Cabot's slave name?

[MoraWintersoul]

That's just strange.  Are dice made out of candy in Serbia?  We don't generally suck dice in the rest of the civilized world as far as I'm aware.  Although, to be honest, some of the crystal D&D dice in different colors did look kinda yummy when I was a kid.

[bosk1]

and btw Bosk1, always wanted to ask, does your handle come from the John Norman novels? Tarl Cabot's slave name?

No, it doesn't.  A long time ago, I posted about where it came from.  I'll try to remember to try to find the post later.  Cozmo seems to be able to find and link to it at will.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

In a dramatic turn of events, I actually have a screenshot of the post in question.

[bosk1]

Um...why?

[El JoNNo]

Just a reminder that nothing is truly gone from the internet. lol