The Lord of the Rings vs. Harry Potter (probably will be spoilers)

[ACID_FOX]

True, but the man almost single handedly created the modern high fantasy genre. The cliche image of elves as tall, fair and skilled with bows, dwarfs as greedy miners, orcs, trolls, etc. Before Tolkien they were all "fairytale" creatures, if that makes any sense.

That's the equivalent of saying, "The Beatles were the greatest rock band because they invented the genre."  I don't buy that logic.  Tolkein invented it, sure, but others perfected it and produce things that are even better.

Never said he was the greatest author of all time. And I hate The Beatles, but yes, the same can be said for them. Opinions aside, both of their influences on their respective forms of media is undeniable.

[NecessaryPain]

Besides, I don't think one should award points based simply on how dense the mythology is.  Yeah, Tolkien went into the background of his world and its history.  Yeah, he made up a bunch of runes and the rudiments of some languages.   That's impressive.

But fantasy authors have come a long way in creating better textured, more nuanced, and interesting worlds since then.

Better textured? You sure about that?

LOTR is pure texture. It's the style of his writing that puts people off. I agree, it's not the easiest read. But I wouldn't say GRRM's 'A Song of Ice and Fire' is better, or more consistant than LOTR. And I think that's the example most people tend to use when discussing modern-day fantasy. (and George's work is indeed brilliant)

I am still yet to see more attention to detail and texture than Tolken and his LOTR trilogy. It has not been surpassed in that regard. It probably never will.

[GuineaPig]

By textured, I meant that everything is pretty black-and-white in Tolkien's world.  The Elves are good, and are therefore beautiful, and white, civilized, and are the best at music and culture, etc.  The orcs are evil, so they speak a harsher language, are ugly, are darker skinned, and unruly.  Moral relativity isn't something the Harry Potter series handles all that well, but it still does it a lot better than Tolkien.

[NecessaryPain]

By textured, I meant that everything is pretty black-and-white in Tolkien's world.  The Elves are good, and are therefore beautiful, and white, civilized, and are the best at music and culture, etc.  The orcs are evil, so they speak a harsher language, are ugly, are darker skinned, and unruly.  Moral relativity isn't something the Harry Potter series handles all that well, but it still does it a lot better than Tolkien.

Yeah, I agree with you on that.

But you really must put that down to the times. Authors of today, have hundreds upon thousands of literatures, movies, and TV shows to help aid their stories. Influence plays a ridiculously large role in avoiding cliche-written manuscripts. Good/Bad and Light/Dark were quite clearly, always going to come first, before the more modern/advanced hero/villian came to light.

Tolkein's work was not the first, but his genre arguably was. It set the standard. And that's more important than anything else, IMO.

It's somewhat similar to the people who say The Godfather is a boring, or 'overrated' film. (I absolutely hate the word overrated) These people are missing the point. These earlier works raised the bar. And as human beings, I think it's important that we never forget where good ideas come from.

Harry Potter, whilst really good vision-wise, and well written, does not scratch the surface on Tolkein's world. They two different things entirely.

[The King in Crimson]

By textured, I meant that everything is pretty black-and-white in Tolkien's world.  The Elves are good, and are therefore beautiful, and white, civilized, and are the best at music and culture, etc.  The orcs are evil, so they speak a harsher language, are ugly, are darker skinned, and unruly.  Moral relativity isn't something the Harry Potter series handles all that well, but it still does it a lot better than Tolkien.

If you stick with just LotR, then I agree with this. There's not that much moral relativism in the series. However, if you delve into the Silmarillion (or any of the other prequel stuff), elves are much less of the goody, goody beautiful types, in fact, they're downright greedy assholes a lot of the time.

Although this is a bit beside the point of the thread, I really didn't appreciate Tolkien's world much until after I read the Silmarillion. Sure, I liked the books, but reading that made me like them even more.

[bout to crash]

I haven't read enough of either to make a judgement on that, but definitely the LotR movies.

[PuffyPat]

That is all.

[Jirpo]

LOTR>HP

[GuineaPig]

By textured, I meant that everything is pretty black-and-white in Tolkien's world.  The Elves are good, and are therefore beautiful, and white, civilized, and are the best at music and culture, etc.  The orcs are evil, so they speak a harsher language, are ugly, are darker skinned, and unruly.  Moral relativity isn't something the Harry Potter series handles all that well, but it still does it a lot better than Tolkien.

If you stick with just LotR, then I agree with this. There's not that much moral relativism in the series. However, if you delve into the Silmarillion (or any of the other prequel stuff), elves are much less of the goody, goody beautiful types, in fact, they're downright greedy assholes a lot of the time.

Although this is a bit beside the point of the thread, I really didn't appreciate Tolkien's world much until after I read the Silmarillion. Sure, I liked the books, but reading that made me like them even more.

I have read The Silmarillion.  I don't like it. 

And while I suppose the Elves are somewhat less pure good guys, the worst thing they do is *GASP* kill some other Elves in a moment of passion.

In order to fight a guy who's the source of all evil in the world.  I'd call it a wash.

[RuRoRul]

Honestly I think the Harry Potter books are a better way of telling the story and more enjoyable, even though Tolkien's vision and world is obviously amazing and he basically created the modern genre. But I think the Harry Potter series is a better read.

The movies though... The Lord Of The Rings is easily my favourite film series ever. Harry Potter is actually pretty good but it was never on the same level at all. And I think the films were a better telling of The Lord Of The Rings story than the original novel. Obviously not a better showcase of the world (although they did a pretty amazing job for films).

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I enjoy both series a lot, but LOTR's power is maximum.

[Jarlaxle]

The LotR movies is probably the single greatest film series of all time. But the fact that Rowling wrote books that are able to captivate young children and older people alike (my 95 year old grandma wanted to read it so I let her read them and she absolutely loved them) just goes to show that while her creative genius may not be on the same skill as Tolkien (for creating that world, history, languages etc) she is extremely capable of weaving a great tale, something that myself and so many other writers hope to accomplish some day.

[GuineaPig]

The LotR movies is probably the single greatest film series of all time.

There should be a :sarcasm emote.  Lots of other forums have them.

[Jarlaxle]

The LotR movies is probably the single greatest film series of all time.

There should be a :sarcasm emote.  Lots of other forums have them.

Well, in my opinion of course, and in the opinion of many others. I don't presume I have the authority to speak for over 6 billion people.