This is unbelievably horrifying

[Adami]

I'm sorry, are some of you suggesting that people will rape and abuse children simply because there's a market for it?



No. The people who are MAKING child porn are making it because it satisfies them sexually. They might be more prone to uploading it or something if people want it, but it's the idea of watching CP being legal probably won't cause more children to be abused as I doubt it's a free market deal.

I mean I doubt anyone says "Man....I'm really not attracted to 5 year old's................but there seems to be a market for it, so I better rape my niece and video tape it".

[7StringedBeast]

They make the child porn and give it out because its a community thing.  It's encouraged among the community.  They trade it.  If they make some for other people, those other people will then in return, send them some new stuff back.  That's how it works and how it grows. 

And yes, if there are people wanting this stuff, people will make it.  It won't make good people all of a sudden do it, cause that's an absurd notion.  But it will encourage people who have thought about it to do it, or people who rape children to go ahead and film it and post it online.

I mean the article clearly states this was going on.  People were encouraged and respected when they went out committed the act and filmed it.  So why is there even any doubt that this shit goes on.  They just got caught doing that exact thing.

I don't understand why people have such a hard time believing child porn is an actual problem and people are sick enough to go out and create it for other people.

[El Barto]

They make the child porn and give it out because its a community thing.  It's encouraged among the community.  They trade it.  If they make some for other people, those other people will then in return, send them some new stuff back.  That's how it works and how it grows. 

And yes, if there are people wanting this stuff, people will make it.  It won't make good people all of a sudden do it, cause that's an absurd notion.  But it will encourage people who have thought about it to do it, or people who rape children to go ahead and film it and post it online.

Obviously,  I disagree with your entire premise there, and there's no need to belabor a point which we're not going to agree on.  One thing I will comment on is the last part.  Considering that the overwhelming majority of child abuse goes unreported,  wouldn't it benefit the victim if the asshole responsible were to create and share evidence with anybody interested in seeing it?  It seems to me that the average victim isn't going to drop a dime on her father, but plenty of people have gotten busted because KP brought attention to the case to the authorities. 

[7StringedBeast]

Are you saying that CP is justified because it might get people caught?  And I don't know why you disagree with my premise.  There is enough evidence out there to show that CP gets traded around and there is a community dedicated to making it for others.  I don't see what is so hard to see about that.  That's how they eventually get caught.

[Adami]

Are you saying that CP is justified because it might get people caught?  And I don't know why you disagree with my premise.  There is enough evidence out there to show that CP gets traded around and there is a community dedicated to making it for others.  I don't see what is so hard to see about that.  That's how they eventually get caught.

And if those communities didn't exist, even less child abusers would get caught.

[7StringedBeast]

Are you saying that CP is justified because it might get people caught?  And I don't know why you disagree with my premise.  There is enough evidence out there to show that CP gets traded around and there is a community dedicated to making it for others.  I don't see what is so hard to see about that.  That's how they eventually get caught.

And if those communities didn't exist, even less child abusers would get caught.

So now you are saying that the fact that this sort of thing happens is a good thing because it eventually can lead to people getting caught?  How callous can you possibly get?

[Adami]

Are you saying that CP is justified because it might get people caught?  And I don't know why you disagree with my premise.  There is enough evidence out there to show that CP gets traded around and there is a community dedicated to making it for others.  I don't see what is so hard to see about that.  That's how they eventually get caught.

And if those communities didn't exist, even less child abusers would get caught.

So now you are saying that the fact that this sort of thing happens is a good thing because it eventually can lead to people getting caught?  How callous can you possibly get?

Off topic, I can be very callous.

But on topic, if these abuses are going to happen either way, wouldn't you prefer more people getting caught? Or is the idea of someone watching it SO horrible to you, that you'd rather that the actual abusers go unpunished?

[rumborak]

It all depends on whether one see the boards' effect to be more production of CP or not. If it doesn't, yeah, then of course boards like those are a good way of catching criminals. If it *does* increase production of CP, one can argue that the lessening effect of catching the criminals is offset by the increase in production.

rumborak

[73109]

Also, one thing that I thought of...

If you realize how much porn is out there, it wouldn't take that much effort to stay in the community. 7SB keeps talking about how they keep making more and more and more and it's wrong because they keep making more and more and more, but how many of these dude, out of 600, actually go out of their way to do the nasty stuff. 16,000 DVDs. That is an insane number. Pretend there was an adult site like this, I could send a new porn clip in every day for the rest of my life, and nothing would happen.

Personally, I am a proponent of making sure those who make and continue the stuff to be caught and stopped, but are we really to judge who should get their rocks off on who? Especially if no one is hurting anyone else.

[Adami]

It all depends on whether one see the boards' effect to be more production of CP or not. If it doesn't, yeah, then of course boards like those are a good way of catching criminals. If it *does* increase production of CP, one can argue that the lessening effect of catching the criminals is offset by the increase in production.

rumborak

It's really easy to say "The free market demands that an increase in viewership in CP creates a demand which in turn creates more child porn", but is there anything to back it up? Or are we back to gut feelings?

[El Barto]

Are you saying that CP is justified because it might get people caught?  And I don't know why you disagree with my premise.  There is enough evidence out there to show that CP gets traded around and there is a community dedicated to making it for others.  I don't see what is so hard to see about that.  That's how they eventually get caught.

Well,  Rumborak and Adami have nailed it.  I personally don't see any direct correlation between the viewers and the actors.  I'm personally of the opinion that anybody who would fuck a five year old for money or the respect of their peers would be just as interested in doing it for free.  Since I don't think the demand increases the supply, then I'd just as soon see the people who do abuse children get themselves busted. 

[rumborak]

It all depends on whether one see the boards' effect to be more production of CP or not. If it doesn't, yeah, then of course boards like those are a good way of catching criminals. If it *does* increase production of CP, one can argue that the lessening effect of catching the criminals is offset by the increase in production.

rumborak

It's really easy to say "The free market demands that an increase in viewership in CP creates a demand which in turn creates more child porn", but is there anything to back it up? Or are we back to gut feelings?

That's really the biggest problem. Any of those discussions are completely without any hard data to back it up.

rumborak

[7StringedBeast]

Why would supply and demand just magically not work for CP.  Howcome it applies to everything else in the world but not CP?  That's just ignorant to think that way imo.

[El Barto]

Because the supply is created independently of the demand. 

[7StringedBeast]

Because the supply is created independently of the demand. 

That isn't true.  You are just saying that despite any evidence.  Such as a recently busted 600 person community thriving off the uploads of others.  Why do you still ignore the fact that CP is often made for other people?  That's also how this person's uncle got caught in the middle of unscrupulous activities.  It has everything to do with sharing.  All these people watching CP perpetuates the idea of it and therefore the physical product existing. 

[El Barto]

Do you really think that any of the active abusers in that 600 member community raped children only to gain the acceptance of others?  That's insane.  Like I said before,  anybody who's going to commit such an act is going to do it because they have an interest in it.  If they share their videos with other like-minded people afterward, that's a different mindset. 

[j]

Since I don't think the demand increases the supply, then I'd just as soon see the people who do abuse children get themselves busted. 

Although this may be true, I have trouble straight up accepting the notion that CP is actually "good" in a way because it allegedly doesn't change the amount of child abuse and instead just helps the authorities catch the abusers.  Mostly because I can't think of a remotely analogous situation to which it can be compared for reference.

-J

[7StringedBeast]

Do you really think that any of the active abusers in that 600 member community raped children only to gain the acceptance of others?  That's insane.  Like I said before,  anybody who's going to commit such an act is going to do it because they have an interest in it.  If they share their videos with other like-minded people afterward, that's a different mindset. 

It's not ONLY to gain acceptance, but also to gain acceptance.  But that whole mentality is fueled by the community atmosphere.  The community gives them a stage.  If there is a stage, performers are going to perform.  Take away the captive audience and they won't feel as driven to do what they do.  If that community wasn't promoting the creation of child porn, I do believe that members may not have made at least some of the material that they did.  If you don't think that community fueled all that creation, I think that is pure insanity.  16,000 dvds worth of material.  That's at least 16,000 hours of this shit.  You think people would be making that quantity if they knew no one else would ever be seeing it?

The bottom line is, its pretty obvious that community drove those people to produce more and more.  It was accepted and encouraged.  Barto, I would think you especially would see how people can be convinced to do these things to gain some kind of self importance.  

CP creators do not just make it for themselves.  If that were so, there would be none floating around.  This shit gets made and released.  It's like a computer virus.  The people who make them release them, they don't just sit there and infect their own computers just to feel good about themselves.

[El Barto]

They might not create the CP for themselves, but the abuse itself is strictly self-motivated.  That's the distinction.  And keep in mind that tons of people videotape their sexual escapades with no intention of releasing it to the public. 

And funny you brought up the 16000 dvd's part,  because I was just typing this up:

Another thought occurs to me.  At this point I will reiterate that I'm not criticizing this bust.  I'm sure plenty of the people rounded up deserve every bit of what will happen to them and then some.  However,  I still think that cops and prosecutors always overstate the significance of such things.  I started thinking about 123 terabytes (16000 dvds  ).  That would be something like 23,000 hours of video, assuming it was good quality HD, which seems pretty unlikely to me.  They almost have to be referring to the total amount of up/down bandwidth of their board,  which is kind of a meaningless number in relation to the story.  It's kind of like the DEA confiscating $1000 dollars worth of pot, and calling it half a million because of it's eventual resale potential, or the RIAA seeking $30k per song because of lost revenue. 

[reo73]

7SB, I am totally with you on this and it is disturbing to me that some people on this board actually defend aspects of the morality of something as heinous as CP and will question the validity of these acts.  It is very clear that a video/picture market for this kind of stuff exists because of the demand for it and whether you are an inactive viewer or active creator of the material it is and should remain a crime.  It seems that people forget that laws not only exist to protect us from the acts of others, but also to establish morality and deviancy within a society.  Nothing we do ever occurs in a vacuum so the argument "as long as we are not harming anyone else" is of little value to me.

[El Barto]

And many people on this forum,  including plenty who are on your side of the CP issue,  think that using the law to enforce morality is bullshit. 

[7StringedBeast]

But essentially that is part of what laws are.  They deal in morality.  Like not murdering people.  It's a moral to say I won't kill people because I don't want to take a life.  That's a moral.  The law does enforce that moral.  I think that is ok though.

I also think its ok for the law to enforce morality such as CP. 

There are some things I'd rather government stay out of though. 

[El Barto]

Trying to argue the definition of morality really makes my brain hurt.  Suffice it to say,  my interest in the law is to protect people, not to compel some arbitrary sense of decency.

[7StringedBeast]

Trying to argue the definition of morality really makes my brain hurt.  Suffice it to say,  my interest in the law is to protect people, not to compel some arbitrary sense of decency.

That's fair as far as im concerned.  However both murder and CP do not really fall under "arbitrary sense of decency" in my opinion.

[rumborak]

And many people on this forum,  including plenty who are on your side of the CP issue,  think that using the law to enforce morality is bullshit.  

One needs to distinguish between moral laws that are enacted for morality's sake, and moral laws that protect innocent people. Obviously, the CP laws are the latter kind.

rumborak

[Quadrochosis]

I don't see how anyone can have any sense of leniency for the members of that community.

What exactly did they do wrong?

[7StringedBeast]

I don't see how anyone can have any sense of leniency for the members of that community.

What exactly did they do wrong?

Are you f'n kidding me?  A. you are trolling or B didn't read the article.  Not sure which.

[theliloutkast]

Personally, I am a proponent of making sure those who make and continue the stuff to be caught and stopped, but are we really to judge who should get their rocks off on who? Especially if no one is hurting anyone else.

If someone has to be hurt in order for one to experience sexual pleasure, that person suffers from deep psychological problems that may stem in to the wanting to hurt others. Also, child pornography differs from normal pornography in that, in most cases, pornography made by adults is the trade of a skill for money, as are all other jobs. This skill just happens to be the ability to look very attractive during sexual intercourse. Where as child pornography is the intentional sexual abuse of a child in order to gain ones own sexual satisfaction, and to share that satisfaction with others. Also, child pornography must work on the basics of all other materials, supply and demand. In order for those, let's say, 400 members who weren't molesting children to share or receive what they wanted, someone did have to be hurt. Now, I hope that we all have enough common sense to agree that forcing anyone, regardless of age or gender, to have sex is a disgusting act. It is abuse, it leaves deep psychological scars that most people will never, ever get over in an entire lifetime and will complete change their outlook on life and their ability to find enjoyment in sex.

tl;dr: child porn has supply in demand, if there wasn't a demand no one would be hurt, and those hurt are fucked for life.

[Aramatheis]

holy cripes, I'm glad they broke the ring up.
that's horrifyingly awful subject matter


tl;dr :

holy cripes, I'm glad they broke the ring up.
that's horrifyingly awful subject matter

[MasterShakezula]

I think we've reached the consensus that child porn is not good, and that it's level of non-goodness is rather high. 

[Adami]

Congratulations, we're all going to jail.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

You know, I find it fascinating that the almost universal opinion is that all subjects of child pornography are abused in one way or another. Now, that's not to say that they're NOT abused at all. But there's a difference between having sex with a 6 year old and dumb-ass 12 year old teen girls willingly undressing on public webcam sites. Both are considered child pornography, but the latter is COMPLETELY consensual.

So, the notion that 'someone has to be hurt in order for one to experience sexual pleasure' is wrong. Pedo's are attracted to young girls. Pedo's therefore look at photos and videos of young girls for pleasure. But not all these girls (the 12 year olds, specifically) are hurt. They're willingly taking off their clothes.

Really, I agree with numbers. Being attracted to young girls is not something that can be controlled. It's the same as being attracted to the same sex or being attracted to animals. What I find funny is that pedo's are universally and without question totally despised based on their attraction. And my understanding is that it's a VERY small percentage of pedos who actually take part in abuse.

[Adami]

You know, I find it fascinating that the almost universal opinion is that all subjects of child pornography are abused in one way or another. Now, that's not to say that they're NOT abused at all. But there's a difference between having sex with a 6 year old and dumb-ass 12 year old teen girls willingly undressing on public webcam sites. Both are considered child pornography, but the latter is COMPLETELY consensual.

So, the notion that 'someone has to be hurt in order for one to experience sexual pleasure' is wrong. Pedo's are attracted to young girls. Pedo's therefore look at photos and videos of young girls for pleasure. But not all these girls (the 12 year olds, specifically) are hurt. They're willingly taking off their clothes.

Really, I agree with numbers. Being attracted to young girls is not something that can be controlled. It's the same as being attracted to the same sex or being attracted to animals. What I find funny is that pedo's are universally and without question totally despised based on their attraction. And my understanding is that it's a VERY small percentage of pedos who actually take part in abuse.

I hope I'm not wrong, but I was under the impression we were strictly discussing the "super hardcore" posters there that posted pics of themselves abusing infants.

Obviously not all forms of CP is harmful to the subject. I'm sure 7SB and company will still feel it's horrible and beyond wrong, but I think in this case we're just focusing on the most extreme cases.

[7StringedBeast]

There's absolutely a difference between a 12 year old posing nude on her own accord, and child rape.  Anyone can see that.  They are both wrong to be looking at imo.  But one is waaaaaay worse than the other. 

And Adami, obviously you know the difference between child porn and art, so the whole Nirvana cover was really unnecessary and doesn't make any point.

[Adami]

There's absolutely a difference between a 12 year old posing nude on her own accord, and child rape.  Anyone can see that.  They are both wrong to be looking at imo.  But one is waaaaaay worse than the other. 

And Adami, obviously you know the difference between child porn and art, so the whole Nirvana cover was really unnecessary and doesn't make any point.

I guess I didn't make my point because my point was to lighten some of you guys up.