Genesis Appreciation/Discussion

[Orbert]

Paperlate feels like a song I had to have heard somewhere, but I cannot imagine where that would have been.

Paperlate got considerable airplay, at least where we live (Midwest).  It was the "other" Genesis song with the Phoenix Horns (aka the Earth, Wind & Fire horn section).  The one everyone knows was No Reply At All.  Both were recorded during the Abacab sessions, but they felt like they should only keep one for the album, so No Reply At All became the single and Paperlate was relegated to B-side/unreleased status.  That is, until it showed up on the (original) U.S. release of Three Sides Live.  I definitely remember hearing it on the radio around then.

[KevShmev]

Paperlate feels like a song I had to have heard somewhere, but I cannot imagine where that would have been.

Paperlate got considerable airplay, at least where we live (Midwest).  It was the "other" Genesis song with the Phoenix Horns (aka the Earth, Wind & Fire horn section).  The one everyone knows was No Reply At All.  Both were recorded during the Abacab sessions, but they felt like they should only keep one for the album, so No Reply At All became the single and Paperlate was relegated to B-side/unreleased status.  That is, until it showed up on the (original) U.S. release of Three Sides Live.  I definitely remember hearing it on the radio around then.

I can understand that decision at the time as they probably thought that two songs with the horns might be too much, but what I cannot understand is how they thought Who Dunnit? was good enough to put on the record.  I never heard that song until a few years ago, and I remember thinking, "this probably won't be as bad as everyone says it is."  And yet it was.   Just goes to show that even the best bands swing and miss badly sometimes, even when otherwise on their game.

[Kwyjibo]

Listening to CAS now, and I think I’d be willing to say it’s on the same level as We Can’t Dance. I probably listen to it more than We Can’t Dance. It’s better than most prog bands produced at the end of their careers.

I finally gave Calling All Stations a go some years ago. For me it's a clear step down from We Can't Dance but it's still a solid pop record. This may be their worst but it is far from their St. Anger or their Dedicated 2 Chaos. And like Orbert already mentioned, it feels unfinished, could have probably been better if given more time and effort.

And I think Ray Wilson is a really good singer.

[Stadler]

Paperlate feels like a song I had to have heard somewhere, but I cannot imagine where that would have been.

Paperlate got considerable airplay, at least where we live (Midwest).  It was the "other" Genesis song with the Phoenix Horns (aka the Earth, Wind & Fire horn section).  The one everyone knows was No Reply At All.  Both were recorded during the Abacab sessions, but they felt like they should only keep one for the album, so No Reply At All became the single and Paperlate was relegated to B-side/unreleased status.  That is, until it showed up on the (original) U.S. release of Three Sides Live.  I definitely remember hearing it on the radio around then.

I can understand that decision at the time as they probably thought that two songs with the horns might be too much, but what I cannot understand is how they thought Who Dunnit? was good enough to put on the record.  I never heard that song until a few years ago, and I remember thinking, "this probably won't be as bad as everyone says it is."  And yet it was.   Just goes to show that even the best bands swing and miss badly sometimes, even when otherwise on their game.

Tony talks about this a bit in the interviews that came with the box sets a couple years ago.   ABACAB is - FOR GENESIS - a very progressive record, in terms of doing things that they hadn't done before.    Some of it is sort of lost on listeners - "No Reply At All" and "Me And Sarah Jane" don't SOUND all that progressive - but the running rule was to avoid all the sort of things that people thought of when they thought "Genesis".  The use of horns; the first time the band had guest musicians on a track (not really true; Brian Eno performed on The Lamb, for example, but this was a prominent place on the song).   Unusual song structures ("MASJ" is in I think five parts and none of them repeat throughout the song).   Most of the songs (six out of nine) were written from jam sessions between the three band members, a trick first started during the Duke sessions.  They purposefully nixed the idea of a suite (the "Dodo/Lurker/Submarine/Naminanu" or "Naminanu/Dodo/Lurker/Submarine" run, depending who you listen to; the other two songs were b-sides) because they flirted with that on Duke.

"Whodunnit?" was supposed to show that they didn't take themselves so seriously.  It was SUPPOSED to be different.  The band loved it; they played it live, switching instruments (Rutherford played drums with Chester during the song), and it was almost a single.  Ahmet Ertegun, label head, WANTED it as a single. 

[Kwyjibo]

All cool, but to me it‘s still an annoying song. 

[HOF]

I seem to recall the band calling Whodunnit their own twist on (or maybe parody of) punk, but maybe I’m making that up. It makes more sense from an irreverent art rock standpoint though. Taking the piss as they say in old England.

But yeah, I’d certainly have rather heard any of You Might Recall, Paperlate, Naminanu, or Submarine in it’s place.

[KevShmev]

Tony talks about this a bit in the interviews that came with the box sets a couple years ago.   ABACAB is - FOR GENESIS - a very progressive record, in terms of doing things that they hadn't done before.    Some of it is sort of lost on listeners - "No Reply At All" and "Me And Sarah Jane" don't SOUND all that progressive - but the running rule was to avoid all the sort of things that people thought of when they thought "Genesis".  The use of horns; the first time the band had guest musicians on a track (not really true; Brian Eno performed on The Lamb, for example, but this was a prominent place on the song).   Unusual song structures ("MASJ" is in I think five parts and none of them repeat throughout the song).   Most of the songs (six out of nine) were written from jam sessions between the three band members, a trick first started during the Duke sessions.  They purposefully nixed the idea of a suite (the "Dodo/Lurker/Submarine/Naminanu" or "Naminanu/Dodo/Lurker/Submarine" run, depending who you listen to; the other two songs were b-sides) because they flirted with that on Duke.

"Whodunnit?" was supposed to show that they didn't take themselves so seriously.  It was SUPPOSED to be different.  The band loved it; they played it live, switching instruments (Rutherford played drums with Chester during the song), and it was almost a single.  Ahmet Ertegun, label head, WANTED it as a single.

That's the funny thing about writing songs.  You just never know which ones are going to age well and which ones might not actually be all that good in the first place.

Abacab tends to get lost in the mix for me, being sandwiched in between Duke and s/t, but I am really enjoying it lately.

[KevShmev]

Random thought: I will stand by Blood on the Rooftops as being one of the most gorgeous songs the band ever did.  That song is something else.

[Metro]

Anybody here seen The Musical Box? They're coming to Alexandria in January and I'm curious.

[HOF]

Random thought: I will stand by Blood on the Rooftops as being one of the most gorgeous songs the band ever did.  That song is something else.

Agree. Come back to it just about as often as any other Genesis song.

[SomeoneLikeHim]

Anybody here seen The Musical Box? They're coming to Alexandria in January and I'm curious.

Seen them 4 times, highly recommend!

[KevShmev]

Random thought: I will stand by Blood on the Rooftops as being one of the most gorgeous songs the band ever did.  That song is something else.

Agree. Come back to it just about as often as any other Genesis song.

Yup, it's amazing.

On the flip side, I am still trying to figure out how Your Own Special Way got past the guards to make it on to W&W.  Same goes for More Fool Me with Selling England.

I would say the two Genesis albums I can listen to and don't even think about skipping over any song are A Trick of the Tail and Duke.  Trick is a top 3 Genesis album for me along with Selling England and The Lamb.  Even though Duke is consistent and has some really good highs, I don't think its highs are among the band's best.  To unpack that a little, if we did a top x-number of songs for Genesis, I doubt anything would make my top 20 (maybe one would squeeze in near the bottom), but if we went 50 deep, there'd probably be 5-6 in the 21-50 range.  Just spitballing, but there is no The Cinema Show or Supper's Ready or Mad Man Moon or The Lamia on Duke, for me.  Still a damn good record, regardless. 

[Stadler]

Anybody here seen The Musical Box? They're coming to Alexandria in January and I'm curious.

GO!!!!!!!!

I've seen them five times now (including the Lamb show, which is otherworldly, and the "Extravaganza" tour, in which they did songs from the "four man" incarnation), and will basically go every time they come close.

GO!!!!!!!

Other than the Lamb show, which is, predictably, the Lamb show, , they've done Supper's Ready and The Cinema Show every time.  SR is just glorious and immersive, but the treat, the star of the show, is "The Cinema Show"; they "reduce" it down to "Mike Rutherford" (Sebastian Lamothe, the bass player and musical leader of the band IRL), "Phil Collins" (Marc Laflamme, for three of the four shows I've seen, and a BEAST on drums) and "Tony Banks" (Ian Benhamou) for the middle section, like Genesis used to do it, and it's sublime.  The music is so pure and spot on - but it's LIVE, which makes it all the difference in the world from just sitting in your living room - I just close my eyes and let it wash over me. 

GO!!!!!!!!

Denis Gagne is the singer, and it's almost freaky how directly he channels Peter Gabriel; he stays in character throughout the show, even replicating some of Peter's better known between-song banters ("Jerusalem Boogie to us, perhaps. But to the birds it meant that supper was ready."). He also wears all the costumes (many donated to him from Peter himself) during the show, including the Box Head, the Flower, and the Old Man mask (during "The Musical Box").

GO!!!!!!!!!

[HOF]

Random thought: I will stand by Blood on the Rooftops as being one of the most gorgeous songs the band ever did.  That song is something else.

Agree. Come back to it just about as often as any other Genesis song.

Yup, it's amazing.

On the flip side, I am still trying to figure out how Your Own Special Way got past the guards to make it on to W&W.  Same goes for More Fool Me with Selling England.

I would say the two Genesis albums I can listen to and don't even think about skipping over any song are A Trick of the Tail and Duke.  Trick is a top 3 Genesis album for me along with Selling England and The Lamb.  Even though Duke is consistent and has some really good highs, I don't think its highs are among the band's best.  To unpack that a little, if we did a top x-number of songs for Genesis, I doubt anything would make my top 20 (maybe one would squeeze in near the bottom), but if we went 50 deep, there'd probably be 5-6 in the 21-50 range.  Just spitballing, but there is no The Cinema Show or Supper's Ready or Mad Man Moon or The Lamia on Duke, for me.  Still a damn good record, regardless. 

It’s interesting, because Duke is my favorite Genesis album, but I agree it is maybe more of a sum of its parts thing. I think the Behind The Lines/Guide Vocal/Duke’s Travels/Dukes End collectively are up there with any of the other great Genesis moments musically, but being separated across the record maybe obscures that a little. I love Duchess and Man of Our Times as well, but they are more album tracks maybe. Please Don’t Ask is also perfect where it sits on the album. Alone Tonight is the underrated gem from Duke IMO.

[emtee]

Random thought: I will stand by Blood on the Rooftops as being one of the most gorgeous songs the band ever did.  That song is something else.

Amen!

[romdrums]

Random thought: I will stand by Blood on the Rooftops as being one of the most gorgeous songs the band ever did.  That song is something else.

Agree. Come back to it just about as often as any other Genesis song.

Yup, it's amazing.

On the flip side, I am still trying to figure out how Your Own Special Way got past the guards to make it on to W&W. 

I substituted Inside & Out for Your Own Special Way and it flows a bit better.

[Stadler]

Random thought: I will stand by Blood on the Rooftops as being one of the most gorgeous songs the band ever did.  That song is something else.

Agree. Come back to it just about as often as any other Genesis song.

Yup, it's amazing.

On the flip side, I am still trying to figure out how Your Own Special Way got past the guards to make it on to W&W.  Same goes for More Fool Me with Selling England.

I would say the two Genesis albums I can listen to and don't even think about skipping over any song are A Trick of the Tail and Duke.  Trick is a top 3 Genesis album for me along with Selling England and The Lamb.  Even though Duke is consistent and has some really good highs, I don't think its highs are among the band's best.  To unpack that a little, if we did a top x-number of songs for Genesis, I doubt anything would make my top 20 (maybe one would squeeze in near the bottom), but if we went 50 deep, there'd probably be 5-6 in the 21-50 range.  Just spitballing, but there is no The Cinema Show or Supper's Ready or Mad Man Moon or The Lamia on Duke, for me.  Still a damn good record, regardless. 

It’s interesting, because Duke is my favorite Genesis album, but I agree it is maybe more of a sum of its parts thing. I think the Behind The Lines/Guide Vocal/Duke’s Travels/Dukes End collectively are up there with any of the other great Genesis moments musically, but being separated across the record maybe obscures that a little. I love Duchess and Man of Our Times as well, but they are more album tracks maybe. Please Don’t Ask is also perfect where it sits on the album. Alone Tonight is the underrated gem from Duke IMO.

Couple things:  do you ever play with Playlists?   I reordered Duke once to have the suite together, and the other songs as side two. I also had a playlist with the "Abacab Complete" (much like the famous tape that the band sent to journalists in advance of the Abacab release that had all the b-sides on it, as well as the Dodo suite).  You can also do a suite with Dance On A Volcano, It's Yourself, and Los Endos.

Also, I'm SURE we've talked about this before, but find the solo "Please Don't Ask" from the "Face Value" behind the album DVD.  It's just Phil at the piano; he tells the story behind it, and it's incredibly moving.  He even takes a pause after playing it and you know it means something more to him.

I love those non-suite songs on Duke.  All of them. Heathaze and Cul-de-sac are both underrated gems, IMO.

[HOF]

Random thought: I will stand by Blood on the Rooftops as being one of the most gorgeous songs the band ever did.  That song is something else.

Agree. Come back to it just about as often as any other Genesis song.

Yup, it's amazing.

On the flip side, I am still trying to figure out how Your Own Special Way got past the guards to make it on to W&W.  Same goes for More Fool Me with Selling England.

I would say the two Genesis albums I can listen to and don't even think about skipping over any song are A Trick of the Tail and Duke.  Trick is a top 3 Genesis album for me along with Selling England and The Lamb.  Even though Duke is consistent and has some really good highs, I don't think its highs are among the band's best.  To unpack that a little, if we did a top x-number of songs for Genesis, I doubt anything would make my top 20 (maybe one would squeeze in near the bottom), but if we went 50 deep, there'd probably be 5-6 in the 21-50 range.  Just spitballing, but there is no The Cinema Show or Supper's Ready or Mad Man Moon or The Lamia on Duke, for me.  Still a damn good record, regardless. 

It’s interesting, because Duke is my favorite Genesis album, but I agree it is maybe more of a sum of its parts thing. I think the Behind The Lines/Guide Vocal/Duke’s Travels/Dukes End collectively are up there with any of the other great Genesis moments musically, but being separated across the record maybe obscures that a little. I love Duchess and Man of Our Times as well, but they are more album tracks maybe. Please Don’t Ask is also perfect where it sits on the album. Alone Tonight is the underrated gem from Duke IMO.

Couple things:  do you ever play with Playlists?   I reordered Duke once to have the suite together, and the other songs as side two. I also had a playlist with the "Abacab Complete" (much like the famous tape that the band sent to journalists in advance of the Abacab release that had all the b-sides on it, as well as the Dodo suite).  You can also do a suite with Dance On A Volcano, It's Yourself, and Los Endos.

Also, I'm SURE we've talked about this before, but find the solo "Please Don't Ask" from the "Face Value" behind the album DVD.  It's just Phil at the piano; he tells the story behind it, and it's incredibly moving.  He even takes a pause after playing it and you know it means something more to him.

I love those non-suite songs on Duke.  All of them. Heathaze and Cul-de-sac are both underrated gems, IMO.

Oh yeah, I’ve re-done Abacab with the Dodo suite several ways in the past. Never felt the need to reorder Duke, but I’ve heard the Duke suite reassembled before. I feel like Duke flows like a story the way it is, so I hate to mess with that order.

And yeah, we’ve talked about that performance of Please Don’t Ask. It is really great!

[Madman Shepherd]

Anybody here seen The Musical Box? They're coming to Alexandria in January and I'm curious.

Seen them 4 times, highly recommend!

I've seen them 5 or 6 times if that any indication if how awesome they are.

[Stadler]

Random thought: I will stand by Blood on the Rooftops as being one of the most gorgeous songs the band ever did.  That song is something else.

Agree. Come back to it just about as often as any other Genesis song.

Yup, it's amazing.

On the flip side, I am still trying to figure out how Your Own Special Way got past the guards to make it on to W&W. 

I substituted Inside & Out for Your Own Special Way and it flows a bit better.

It's funny; W&W is a top five album ALL TIME for me, and yet... I HATE "Your Own Special Way".  Sappy, dippy, and not really up to snuff with the rest of the record.  A record that is, for me, SO GOOD otherwise that it still reaches the top five. 


Why?  Because when I first got into Genesis, I was still making cassette tapes. Funny enough - almost as if the band KNEW but didn't want to tell Mike Rutherford - the album is 51:03 long, and by cutting "YOSW" (6:19), you get 44 minutes, 44 seconds, PERFECT for one side of a 90-minute Maxell tape.    (And funny enough, ATOTT minus "Robbery, Assault and Battery" fits just as well.   Funny enough, RA&B is also my least favorite on ATOTT, though it slays on Seconds Out).

[HOF]

I don’t mind Your Own Special Way, but it is definitely an inferior song to Inside & Out and the most skippable track on W&W. Mike was really trying to write that hit tune, man.

It’s funny, because as much as people want to blame Phil for Genesis going pop, Rutherford is the one behind a lot of their hits . Follow You Follow Me, Turn It On Again, Land of Confusion, Throwing it All Away, and then Your Own Special Way and More Fool Me were his as well.

[Stadler]

I don’t mind Your Own Special Way, but it is definitely an inferior song to Inside & Out and the most skippable track on W&W. Mike was really trying to write that hit tune, man.

It’s funny, because as much as people want to blame Phil for Genesis going pop, Rutherford is the one behind a lot of their hits . Follow You Follow Me, Turn It On Again, Land of Confusion, Throwing it All Away, and then Your Own Special Way and More Fool Me were his as well.

And he walked away from prog just as stridently as Collins did, he just called it "Mike + the Mechanics".  In fact, moreso, because Mike didn't do the instrumental guest appearances that Collins did, and didn't have anything like Phil's big band stuff.   

FYI, More Fool Me may be my least favorite Gabriel era song. Even worse than "The Waiting Room".  I hated when Phil sang in that falsetto.   

[HOF]

The problem with More Fool Me and Your Own Special way is more that the melodies are just kind of awkward. I don’t mind the Collins falsetto so much. There’s an Anthony Phillips track that he sang on, Which Way the Wind Blows, where Phil sings in a similar way but it’s just a much more pleasant melody that it works fine.

[KevShmev]

I substituted Inside & Out for Your Own Special Way and it flows a bit better.

Ahhhhh, I may need to try that. I could see that working perfectly.

Random thought: I will stand by Blood on the Rooftops as being one of the most gorgeous songs the band ever did.  That song is something else.

Agree. Come back to it just about as often as any other Genesis song.

Yup, it's amazing.

On the flip side, I am still trying to figure out how Your Own Special Way got past the guards to make it on to W&W.  Same goes for More Fool Me with Selling England.

I would say the two Genesis albums I can listen to and don't even think about skipping over any song are A Trick of the Tail and Duke.  Trick is a top 3 Genesis album for me along with Selling England and The Lamb.  Even though Duke is consistent and has some really good highs, I don't think its highs are among the band's best.  To unpack that a little, if we did a top x-number of songs for Genesis, I doubt anything would make my top 20 (maybe one would squeeze in near the bottom), but if we went 50 deep, there'd probably be 5-6 in the 21-50 range.  Just spitballing, but there is no The Cinema Show or Supper's Ready or Mad Man Moon or The Lamia on Duke, for me.  Still a damn good record, regardless. 

It’s interesting, because Duke is my favorite Genesis album, but I agree it is maybe more of a sum of its parts thing. I think the Behind The Lines/Guide Vocal/Duke’s Travels/Dukes End collectively are up there with any of the other great Genesis moments musically, but being separated across the record maybe obscures that a little. I love Duchess and Man of Our Times as well, but they are more album tracks maybe. Please Don’t Ask is also perfect where it sits on the album. Alone Tonight is the underrated gem from Duke IMO.

Couple things:  do you ever play with Playlists?   I reordered Duke once to have the suite together, and the other songs as side two. I also had a playlist with the "Abacab Complete" (much like the famous tape that the band sent to journalists in advance of the Abacab release that had all the b-sides on it, as well as the Dodo suite).  You can also do a suite with Dance On A Volcano, It's Yourself, and Los Endos.

Also, I'm SURE we've talked about this before, but find the solo "Please Don't Ask" from the "Face Value" behind the album DVD.  It's just Phil at the piano; he tells the story behind it, and it's incredibly moving.  He even takes a pause after playing it and you know it means something more to him.

I love those non-suite songs on Duke.  All of them. Heathaze and Cul-de-sac are both underrated gems, IMO.

Hell yes to Heathaze in particular!! 

It's funny; W&W is a top five album ALL TIME for me, and yet... I HATE "Your Own Special Way".  Sappy, dippy, and not really up to snuff with the rest of the record.  A record that is, for me, SO GOOD otherwise that it still reaches the top five. 


Why?  Because when I first got into Genesis, I was still making cassette tapes. Funny enough - almost as if the band KNEW but didn't want to tell Mike Rutherford - the album is 51:03 long, and by cutting "YOSW" (6:19), you get 44 minutes, 44 seconds, PERFECT for one side of a 90-minute Maxell tape.    (And funny enough, ATOTT minus "Robbery, Assault and Battery" fits just as well.   Funny enough, RA&B is also my least favorite on ATOTT, though it slays on Seconds Out).

See, now you're just breaking my heart (re: the bolded).

I do remember making those mixed tapes however, and Maxwell was often the go-to brand. 

[The Great Zo]

Not that I think More Fool Me is a great song, but ... it's short. Your Own Special Way feels like it's about 17 minutes long.

[jammindude]

Not that I think More Fool Me is a great song, but ... it's short. Your Own Special Way feels like it's about 17 minutes long.

All of this.

I also +1 the hate of RAAB. But I can’t cry too much, because one of my most beloved songs from WAW is a song that everyone else seems to like on as being too silly. All in a Mouse’s Night.

[Stadler]

Not that I think More Fool Me is a great song, but ... it's short. Your Own Special Way feels like it's about 17 minutes long.

All of this.

I also +1 the hate of RAAB. But I can’t cry too much, because one of my most beloved songs from WAW is a song that everyone else seems to like on as being too silly. All in a Mouse’s Night.

One of my favorites; yet another example - IMO - of "fans" latching on to something a band member says and having it become gospel, a la Tai Shan and You Not Me.   Phil famously made fun of having to sing "bread bin", even though, to my knowledge the song was only played live on the initial UK leg of the W&W tour (so, 20 shows, but it wasn't played at every show, so more like 16 times).

I love how the melodies change depending on the point of view of the "speaker".  What a composition.

[HOF]

All In A Mouse’s Night is great, if a bit silly.

Robbery Assault & Battery is generally annoying except for the instrumental section which is fantastic.

The third in the trio of silly songs about nighttime is Scenes From a Night’s Dream, which is quite regrettable through and through.

[Stadler]

All In A Mouse’s Night is great, if a bit silly.

Robbery Assault & Battery is generally annoying except for the instrumental section which is fantastic.

The third in the trio of silly songs about nighttime is Scenes From a Night’s Dream, which is quite regrettable through and through.

Poor little Nemo!!!!  Another song I love.  The only song I really don't like on ...ATTWT is "Say It's Alright Joe".

[HOF]

All In A Mouse’s Night is great, if a bit silly.

Robbery Assault & Battery is generally annoying except for the instrumental section which is fantastic.

The third in the trio of silly songs about nighttime is Scenes From a Night’s Dream, which is quite regrettable through and through.

Poor little Nemo!!!!  Another song I love.  The only song I really don't like on ...ATTWT is "Say It's Alright Joe".

Yeah, Say It’s Alright Joe is maybe the most bland Genesis song. I like everything else on ATTWT though.

[jammindude]

Snowbound is the one from ATTWT that I tend to lump in with songs like Your Own Special Way.  It’s got a super sappy chorus that just sounds dumb to me for some reason.

[HOF]

Snowbound is the one from ATTWT that I tend to lump in with songs like Your Own Special Way.  It’s got a super sappy chorus that just sounds dumb to me for some reason.

I love Snowbound, though I used to think that about the chorus too. It's actually a really grim song about a homeless guy falling asleep and dying in the snow.

[KevShmev]

I have never been able to wrap my arms around Snowbound.  That chorus just doesn't stick to landing for me.