Poll

Will the US default on August 2?

Yes
7 (18.4%)
No
26 (68.4%)
Wah?
5 (13.2%)

Total Members Voted: 37

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Offline Sigz

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #105 on: July 25, 2011, 11:15:51 PM »
Of course. We have a one party crony-capitalist system masquerading as a false paradigm of a two party system. It is designed to pin left vs right, Dem vs. Repub, etc etc.

Alright, I agree with you so fa-

It's people like me who support the law of the land over the statists who have been controlled by the banksters since 1913

wait wat

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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #106 on: July 26, 2011, 05:19:32 AM »
Sorry to double-post, but I've found a bit of pretty impartial commentary debunking some of the myths associated with the whole saga:

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/opinion/crazy-things-on-the-us-debt-ceiling/story-e6frg9if-1226102022322

EDIT: Saved by Super Dude.

Hey thanks for that, I think I might use that IRL at some point.  The only issue I had was his dispelling "Default means Armageddon."  I realize that for most countries, it really is as he describes: the sun comes up the next morning.  The distinction in this case is of course the U.S. exception; America sits at the heart of the global economy.  If Argentina defaults as it did in 2001 or 2002 or whenever it was, it's no big deal; it may rock the global economy for a while, but they have the IMF to step in and get them back on their feet.  If the country whose currency is the current global lending standard collapses...well, maybe not Armageddon but at least halfway there.
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Offline PraXis

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #107 on: July 26, 2011, 07:14:24 AM »
Of course. We have a one party crony-capitalist system masquerading as a false paradigm of a two party system. It is designed to pin left vs right, Dem vs. Repub, etc etc.

Alright, I agree with you so fa-

It's people like me who support the law of the land over the statists who have been controlled by the banksters since 1913

wait wat



1913 - the year we got the income tax and a private central bank (Federal Reserve).

https://www.unelected.org/audit-of-the-federal-reserve-reveals-16-trillion-in-secret-bailouts

Offline Riceball

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #108 on: July 27, 2011, 07:08:28 PM »
lol

Quote
WASHINGTON: THE US debt plan put up by the Republican Speaker of the House of Representatives, John Boehner, looks destined to be sunk - by members of his own party.

The two-stage plan, an attempt to break the deadlock that is threatening a US default on its $US14.3 trillion ($13.1 trillion) debt, is expected to be put to a vote in the House on Thursday.

But the bill faces fierce opposition from a rump of hardline Tea Party-backed conservatives, some of whom have pledged not to agree to lift the nation's debt ceiling under any circumstances.

https://www.watoday.com.au/world/republican-debt-deal-set-for-dunking-by-tea-party-20110727-1i0do.html
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #109 on: July 27, 2011, 07:26:14 PM »
Well boys and girls, what have we learned today? :lol
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Offline PlaysLikeMyung

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #110 on: July 27, 2011, 07:34:18 PM »
That nobody in Washington is capable of compromise

Offline MasterShakezula

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #111 on: July 28, 2011, 03:03:30 AM »
And that it's a fucking horrendous idea for a country to be borrowing money from others, especially when it's used for the purpose of funding idiotic and pointless wars and other blatant attempts of forcing US-ian agendas down the throats of the non-western world.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 03:49:55 AM by MasterShakezula »

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #112 on: July 28, 2011, 04:43:58 AM »
That nobody in the Republican Party is capable of compromise
Fixed.
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Offline XJDenton

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #113 on: July 28, 2011, 04:47:43 AM »
And that it's a fucking horrendous idea for a country to be borrowing money from others, especially when it's used for the purpose of funding idiotic and pointless wars and other blatant attempts of forcing US-ian agendas down the throats of the non-western world.

Whilst I agree with the sentiment I'm not sure that this discussion should be had 5 days before the country goes bankrupt.
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Offline MasterShakezula

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #114 on: July 28, 2011, 04:52:21 AM »
Yeah. I mean, as much as I am for isolationism, or the closest thing, as a solution for our nation's issues, that, unfortunately won't do too much to repair these issues, which were caused by the US's long term non-isolationism.

My god do I resent the US's refusal to have stuck to isolationism.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #115 on: July 28, 2011, 05:57:21 AM »
Riceball, you brought us an article earlier that said that a default would be really bad but not cataclysmic.  Is this the sort of thing you have in mind?

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/28/opinion/28thu1.html
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Offline XJDenton

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #116 on: July 28, 2011, 07:16:32 AM »
Your speaker sounds like a bit of a git to be quite frank.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #117 on: July 28, 2011, 07:17:52 AM »
You're referring to the article I assume? Please explain.
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Offline PlaysLikeMyung

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #118 on: July 28, 2011, 07:34:08 AM »
Boehner is a raging git

Offline Demolition

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #119 on: July 28, 2011, 07:38:41 AM »
I think part of the problem is the belief that if the deadline passes we will automatically default.  A default would only occur if we fail to pay our obligations on paying our debt which can be put off, though for how long I don't know.  The government recieves approximately $200B a month in revenues, while our debt obligations are about $20B a month.  While the revenues are received daily we just have to make sure we have enough to make any large payments such as the large social security payment due Aug. 3.  It seems many people believe the problem is lack of revenues but did you know goverment expenditures have increased from $1.8 trillion in 2001 to $3.8 trillion yearly now?  Raising taxes will never be able to keep up with this level of increases.  Another problem with the idea of raising taxes is that  both during the Reagan admin and the Clinton admin there were deals made to raise taxes and lower expeditures and the Republicans went along with it only to have the revenues raised but the decrease in expenditures never came about.  If Obama is serious about any possible default he should go along with a short term package to reduce expenditures in a real way and then a long term plan can be developed to find out in which ways revenues can be increased without harming the economy and develop further cuts in expenditures.  For those who think the answer lies solely in taxing the so called rich, and since the US currently borrows $0.43 out of every dollar we spend, and given that the the top 1% ($380,000+) of earners pay 38% of the total taxes, the top 10% ($113,000+) pay 70% of the taxes and the top 50% ($33,000+) pay 98% of the taxes, even raising taxes significantly on the top 10% will not put a dent in our effort to solve this issue.  If you want to talk about corporate taxes, the US already has the highest corporate tax in the world.  I know there are lots of loopholes that can be tightened up and subsidies that are not needed, but obviously our problem is a spending problem, not a revenue problem.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #120 on: July 28, 2011, 03:20:35 PM »
 For those who think the answer lies solely in taxing the so called rich, and since the US currently borrows $0.43 out of every dollar we spend, and given that the the top 1% ($380,000+) of earners pay 38% of the total taxes, the top 10% ($113,000+) pay 70% of the taxes and the top 50% ($33,000+) pay 98% of the taxes, even raising taxes significantly on the top 10% will not put a dent in our effort to solve this issue.  If you want to talk about corporate taxes, the US already has the highest corporate tax in the world.  I know there are lots of loopholes that can be tightened up and subsidies that are not needed, but obviously our problem is a spending problem, not a revenue problem.

Some problems with this: It ignores how much money the "so called rich" (sorry, I laughed when I read this) make, so it ignores why they're paying that much of the total taxes. You may not realize it, but when you point to how much of taxes the rich pay, you're only showing the huge gap between the rich and the poor. The top 10% owns more money, gains more income, then the lowest 80% combined. That is the reason why the pay so much in taxes, and to say anything else ignores math and the reality on the ground.

It also ignores the effective tax rate that rich people and the biggest corporations pay. Okay, so we have a high tax rate on paper... but just look at what is actually paid. Rich people pay effectively around 17% of their total income, which is nearly half of what middle-income people pay of around 30%. Giant corporations are even worse. GE made billions of dollars last year, and they paid nothing to the federal government - hell, they got a rebate.

Our problem is as much a revenue problem as it is a spending problem. We never financed the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan, and government corruption has been skyrocketing, meaning the rich and the powerful are paying less in taxes then they used to. The status quo is ensured, as start up companies and the less powerful have to face much harder rules than powerful companies.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #121 on: July 28, 2011, 03:23:08 PM »
 For those who think the answer lies solely in taxing the so called rich, and since the US currently borrows $0.43 out of every dollar we spend, and given that the the top 1% ($380,000+) of earners pay 38% of the total taxes, the top 10% ($113,000+) pay 70% of the taxes and the top 50% ($33,000+) pay 98% of the taxes, even raising taxes significantly on the top 10% will not put a dent in our effort to solve this issue.  If you want to talk about corporate taxes, the US already has the highest corporate tax in the world.  I know there are lots of loopholes that can be tightened up and subsidies that are not needed, but obviously our problem is a spending problem, not a revenue problem.

Some problems with this: It ignores how much money the "so called rich" (sorry, I laughed when I read this) make, so it ignores why they're paying that much of the total taxes. You may not realize it, but when you point to how much of taxes the rich pay, you're only showing the huge gap between the rich and the poor. The top 10% owns more money, gains more income, then the lowest 80% combined. That is the reason why the pay so much in taxes, and to say anything else ignores math and the reality on the ground.

It also ignores the effective tax rate that rich people and the biggest corporations pay. Okay, so we have a high tax rate on paper... but just look at what is actually paid. Rich people pay effectively around 17% of their total income, which is nearly half of what middle-income people pay of around 30%. Giant corporations are even worse. GE made billions of dollars last year, and they paid nothing to the federal government - hell, they got a rebate.

Our problem is as much a revenue problem as it is a spending problem. We never financed the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan, and government corruption has been skyrocketing, meaning the rich and the powerful are paying less in taxes then they used to. The status quo is ensured, as start up companies and the less powerful have to face much harder rules than powerful companies.

Don't tell that to PraXis, he'll thrust right into his usual spiel about America's bottomfeeders.
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Offline Riceball

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #122 on: July 28, 2011, 06:08:08 PM »
Yeah the credibility thing is a bit of an issue; although given all of the shit thats happened over the past month, I dare say alot of America's creditors are already looking at the US and its political system in a new light. The tipping point (god I hate that term...most overused coloquialism ever) will be if the ratings agencies downgrade the US, which from what I've seen is likely whether or not the deadline passes. Thats because they rate a sovereign's ability to pay their debts on time, and given a) the relentlessly fucked up politics in the US at the moment, b) the slowdown in the recovery and c) the physical fact that they are really close to their arbitrary debt ceiling will impact on this.

I've got to say, I think the empire may be on its way out...hate to say it but given how the political system has evolved, I can't see the US returning to its preeminant status as "world leader". Who will replace them? Too early to say, China's too young, Europe's too concerned about its own problems. Australia, hehe, we're available :p

But seriously, as I was writing that, I started to question myself, who realistically could take up America's mantle? Probably noone. So, the most likely outcome from where I see it is the US will remain a superpower, but its credibility and reputation will be severely damaged. Which is kind of what I started this post with, funny that.
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Offline MasterShakezula

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #123 on: July 28, 2011, 06:24:09 PM »
I believe the US would be much better off as a non-superpower.  Perhaps that would put an end to its gov consistently trying to throw its weight around the non-Western world in the name of cheap shit.  I mean, if people and natural resources have to be exploited in order to sustain a consumerist society, I'd much rather have my country be exploiting its own people.  I see plenty of people every day who I know are deserving of sweatshop labour and would be doing that, had the US gov not forced business to outsource everything through an inflated minimum wage and needless employee benefit requirements. 

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #124 on: July 28, 2011, 06:31:17 PM »
Hey listen Shak, I appreciate the sentiment, but throwing our weight around has more to do with having cheap shit. And believe me, being a non-superpower would not be fun. Ask any postwar European nation.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #125 on: July 28, 2011, 06:32:03 PM »
Has to do with more than* having cheap shit. Sorry for the double post, on the phone.
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Offline Riceball

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #126 on: July 28, 2011, 06:34:36 PM »
lol in one post you managed to critisize 'merica for being too capitalist and too socialist; bravo ;)

And, yes, cheap shit is a global phenomenon, not reserved for the US. Australia's CPI figures came out on Wednesday, they showed clothing prices remained the same in nominal terms as 20 years ago; when a dollar could buy you about what 3 or 4 dollars will now.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #127 on: July 28, 2011, 06:37:32 PM »
I guess in short what I'm trying to say is the world *might* be better off without US as a superpower, but the US would definitely be worse for wear, especially when a new superpower arises, particularly if that superpower has a score to settle with ex-American hegemony in its local sphere.
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Offline MasterShakezula

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #128 on: July 28, 2011, 06:42:49 PM »
Um, I suppose so, Riceball, though I'd say I was more criticizing elements of Merka that I hate that are associated with capitalism and socialism.  

I am primarily upset with the nation having such a great obsession with getting caught in world affairs, often with the motive of exploiting them for US-ian interests.  

Mainly, because A. there is plenty left to exploit out of the US's land and people, and B. Practically every attempt at exploiting world events has resulted in a major money pit that would waste our tax dollars, and has also resulted in yet more international resentment of the US.  

I doubt the US would have developed so many enemies and so much violent opposition to its existence had it remained isolationist from about, I dunno, 1900 onwards.  

Offline Riceball

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #129 on: July 28, 2011, 06:47:51 PM »
What you said:
I doubt the US would have developed so many enemies and so much violent opposition to its existence had it remained isolationist from about, I dunno, 1900 onwards.  

True.

What you implied:
Things would be just as they are now, with the internet, cheap stuff, fast food, porn etc etc had it remained isolationist from about, I dunno, 1900 onwards.

False.
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Offline MasterShakezula

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #130 on: July 28, 2011, 06:50:02 PM »
You make a solid point there, but I, for one, would be willing to give up those luxuries, if if meant living in a country that isn't at risk of being blown off of the face of the earth by the many nations it has pissed off in the last century.  

Also, about Super Dude's comparison of the US as a non-superpower to that of post-war Western Europe, do you mean post WW1 or post WW2?

It seems post WW2, western Europe recovered quite well, though it did require rough decade or two.  However, after their recovery, it seems they've been better off than ever.

But if you mean post WW1, then I suppose a non-superpower US would be rather weak, considering the conditions in post WW1 Europe  and what they lead to. 
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 07:02:28 PM by MasterShakezula »

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #131 on: July 28, 2011, 06:59:16 PM »
Okay, I'm sorry, but there are...a few things I need to correct here:

The U.S. is not "obsessed" with getting caught in world affairs.  Yes, we may take on a world police role in our defense policy, but the nature of being a superpower is...well, you kinda have to have your nose in everybody's business.  If you don't get involved in world affairs in a deep way when you're a hyperpower (as we were post-Cold War) or even a superpower, the international community will see to it you're dragged in, even if kicking and screaming.  Exemplary cases: genocides in Bosnia and Kosovo in the 90s, the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, the Kyoto Protocols.

Part of being a superpower, also, is having interests that lie outside of our borders.  Robert Art (brilliant professor btw, had him in my freshman year) identifies six major goals of our foreign policy: the physical defense of the country, Eurasian great power peace, security of Persian Gulf oil, spread of democracy, opening of global international markets, and protection of the environment.  Say what you want about any of the six, even the oil one, but you have no idea what it would be like trying to secure those interests sticking to an isolationist foreign policy vision.

Practically every attempt at securing our interests abroad has not been a major money pit and a disaster.  Winning World War II was an example of us sticking our nose in world affairs.  So was the bombing of Kosovo, so was the First Gulf War.  Not all of these foreign involvements have been failures.  Hell, the creation of the EU is said to have had ideological roots in the way the US united Europe against the Soviet bloc.

Furthermore, the US has always had bitter enemies throughout its history.  Before the Soviets were the Nazis and the Japanese; before them it was the Kaiser; before the Kaiser it was the British Empire (and historical records find that the existential threat they constantly posed to the US was actually far superior to the Soviets or today's terrorist groups), and so on and so forth.

And finally, the US has never truly been isolationist.  I repeat: THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, FROM 1776 UNTIL 2011, HAS NEVER BEEN COMPLETELY ISOLATIONIST.  The War of 1812.  Our extensive involvement in the Napoleonic Wars.  Our imperialist forays into Central and South America and the Caribbean.  Hell we even sent a naval fleet to Guam or the Philippines (somewhere in Pacific Asia) because some American colony over there burned an American flag.  And that was in the 1880s.  It is a fact that the US has never been isolationist, not even following the Great War.  In fact that's an example of what's called revisionist history, formulated to prevent Americans from declaring war on Germany and Japan in the 40s.  What George Washington and the Founders expected of the federal government was to not get involved in European realist affairs; they warned against getting involved in the Great Contest, in the balance of power games, in European war above all.  They never said anything about US involvement in foreign affairs to secure US interests, and in fact they had a tacit deal with Britain to give them most favored nation status in their trade relations if British kept the cork on Europe so the US could have their way with the Americas.

WHEW!

You make a solid point there, but I, for one, would be willing to give up those luxuries, if if meant living in a country that isn't at risk of being blown off of the face of the earth by the many nations it has pissed off in the last century. 

You may be (but when push comes to shove, I know I even wouldn't want to give it up, so I don't see how you could seriously claim so), but there's about 300 million people who might tell you to shove it up yer ass.
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Offline MasterShakezula

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #132 on: July 28, 2011, 07:17:37 PM »
Hmm.. you did quite well in kicking my ass on many of these points, primairly the US never having been truly isolationist, however there are some things I do question:

Um, though the US did get dragged against its will into Kosovo/Bosnia and the Israeli/Palestine issues, um, is it not a sign of weakness on the US's part for giving into such pressure to participate?

Then, the six major goals of the US foreign policy, though an near-isolationist policy would not meat these goals, um aside from the defense of home soil and protection of the environment, what exactly does the US have to gain from the others, and why should the US want interest in those.  Also, I know the US has a major reliance on oil, but I'm much for abandoning all foreign oil and instead, enacting mass drilling on home soil to gain that same amount, as well as mass investment in alternative fuel sources that could effectively replace oil.  Sounds a lot safer than dealing with the Persian gulf. 

And, this is curiosity, not disagreeing with this point: what would of been the results if the US had not participated in either world war, or had had nothing to do with Bush the I's gulf war or Kosovo?

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #133 on: July 28, 2011, 07:41:05 PM »
Hmm.. you did quite well in kicking my ass on many of these points, primairly the US never having been truly isolationist, however there are some things I do question:

Um, though the US did get dragged against its will into Kosovo/Bosnia and the Israeli/Palestine issues, um, is it not a sign of weakness on the US's part for giving into such pressure to participate?

Then, the six major goals of the US foreign policy, though an near-isolationist policy would not meat these goals, um aside from the defense of home soil and protection of the environment, what exactly does the US have to gain from the others, and why should the US want interest in those.  Also, I know the US has a major reliance on oil, but I'm much for abandoning all foreign oil and instead, enacting mass drilling on home soil to gain that same amount, as well as mass investment in alternative fuel sources that could effectively replace oil.  Sounds a lot safer than dealing with the Persian gulf.  

And, this is curiosity, not disagreeing with this point: what would of been the results if the US had not participated in either world war, or had had nothing to do with Bush the I's gulf war or Kosovo?

It is not a sign of weakness that they got dragged in.  Rather, it would have been severely damaging both to the reputation of the United States and that of the United Nations if we hadn't gotten involved, because in the Kosovo and Bosnia cases at least, it demonstrates that we turn a blind eye to genocide.  In the Israeli-Palestinian case, it would signal that we shirk away from our leadership duties as a superpower.  And believe me, where the absence is, people notice.  National prestige is way more important than you or even I can fully fathom.

Eurasian great power peace is very important.  Because we've lived in an almost conflict-free Europe for the better part of a century, we've forgotten what it's like when states with significant regional power duke it out on the Continent.  And that's not even limited to Europe; think about keeping the Russians at peace with Georgia, keeping Iran and Iraq from butting heads, keeping China from fucking everybody...that's what makes Eurasian great power peace important.  If we don't rein it in, it's dangerous not only for us but everybody in the area, and eventually the crisis spreads across the international system.

The opening of international markets...I feel like that should be so obvious that I don't need to explain that.  Riceball you can go ahead if you want to, but it's common sense to me so I don't really know how to explain why it requires we get involved in foreign affairs.  The best I can do is to say that open global trade requires opening markets in different countries around the world, getting them to drop protectionist policies and things like that, convincing them of the benefits of immersing themselves in global trade.

To democratization: the democratic peace theory.  There are other (far more significant) implications but I'm so exhausted, I don't feel like getting into it.

The Persian Gulf oil thing can be avoided by alternative energy development, and I am a strong proponent of clean tech (as should be obvious from all the rest of my P/R activity :p), but that day has not yet come, so in the meantime, it's up to us to ensure that no one country becomes so great a regional power that it forms an oil monopoly.  Not to mention this vital interest obligates us not only to our own oil security interests but to that of our allies; even if we make the alternative fuel switch, doesn't mean we won't be required to ensure oil security for an ally that hasn't.

If the US had not participated in World War II: the global financial system and international monetary system would not be based on the dollar, thereby preventing America from becoming the wealthiest country not only of the day but in the entirety of human history, and Taiwan and the Koreas would belong to Japan.  In fact, Japan might have had the monetary standard tied to the Yen instead, and they'd be the wealthiest postwar country and the wealthiest in the history of human civilization.  Germany would belong entirely to the Soviet Union and the rest of Europe would most likely be in economic shambles absent the Marshall Plan, which may have led, however unlikely, to the eventual takeover of all of Europe, even Britain, by the Soviet sphere of influence.  Also we'd still be suffering from the Great Depression unless Japan decided to bail us out, which they might've considering in this universe we didn't drop the bomb on them.

If we didn't get involved in Kuwait: Iraq would have created for itself an oil monopoly in the Persian Gulf, well before anyone was concerned with alternative fuels, making our procurement of said oil extremely difficult.  Our nation's pro-Israel leanings would have made the consequences of said oil control even worse, as Iraq would be able to twist our arm on any Middle East policies of ours he didn't approve of by manipulating oil prices or cutting us off entirely.  Iraq would also have nukes by now, and instead of talking about the nuclear standoff in India and Pakistan we'd probably be talking about the one between Iraq and Iran.  Oh and Israel would be a crater by the end of the (last) decade.

If we didn't get involved in Kosovo: the consequences of this one aren't as severe (for America, anyway), but they do hurt American prestige.  As I said, the world was looking to the US to provide some leadership in the face of what was obviously genocide, having just gotten off the heels of another genocide just next door.  There would have been accusations of American favoritism and things of that nature; our entire interventionist strategy would be completely discredited, and the UN would be a useless, meaningless institution (yeah I know people already say that, but it would literally be a non-entity if we hadn't stepped in).  By the way that last bit would result in the collapse of the collective/cooperative security doctrine, and with the rise of terrorism, the end of the Westphalian state system.  In other words, the international system collapses into anarchy in which international law does not exist and anyone can attack anyone and there's no one to complain to or seek reparations from.

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Edit: Another point that should clear things up:

Physical security, Eurasian great power peace, and Persian Gulf oil security all represent vital interests: those things whose acquisition are of incalculable benefit to the US's well-being, and whose loss would be severe if not catastrophic.

The spread of democracy, the opening of international markets, and environmental protection represent desirable interests: those interests whose realization would bring about great benefits for the US and in some cases the world, but whose non-realization have only mild or minimal consequences.
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Offline MasterShakezula

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #134 on: July 28, 2011, 07:52:33 PM »
Wow, I have learned a great deal today.

And you've certainly done a fine job at making it clear to me that I am wrong and why I'm wrong.

Though, I do have one question, before I head to General Discussion, to talk about things likely to get my ass intellectually kicked:

Regarding Eurasian peace and probably democratization, are these other nations not able to resolve their issues themselves?  I mean, I can understand why they would want aid from others, but it seem perfectly possible for them to solve their problems without us. 

(Also, what are you studying in college/going to pursue afterwards?  You seem well-educated.)

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #135 on: July 28, 2011, 08:01:50 PM »
I'm actually studying environmental politics, but I've taken a good number of international relations courses.

As to your question...

It's a number of things.  I mean, sometimes the truth is they aren't able to work out their problems on their own.  A lot of times that's the reason war starts; they try and the two sides can't reconcile their differences, so it just devolves into conflict.

Another part of it is that the world looks to the superpower of the day (there was a time when it was Britain) to resolve conflicts and keep the peace.  Usually outside powers step into a nasty situation or a situation that looks like it will turn nasty, because obviously you want to organize peace before wars start and people have to get killed.  That's how it should be, international system or not.  Which leads me to...

The superpower steps in because the whole point of being involved in international relations, when you're more than a regional power (and even when you are less than that), is to preserve the status quo.  If Iraq developing an oil monopoly jeopardizes your ability to maintain your superpower status, you'll fuck 'em.  Similarly though, as a superpower (or even as a participant in an international community with a collective security doctrine), you and your allies are beholden to one another to protect each other's foreign policy interests.  So where Japan is concerned, since WWII we've been tasked with making sure none of the former Japanese colonies (the Koreas, China, among others) don't decide one day to fuck their shit up.

And nuclear weapons has also changed this equation entirely.  Before WWII, even though Britain and other world powers saw fit to stick their nose in everyone's business because it suited them, nuclear weapons makes such nosiness an absolute necessity now.  When a small state like North Korea can potentially inflict the damage of a major power like China or a terrorist organization can acquire the destructive power of a nation-state, a phenomenon that is literally without precedent in the whole of human history, it turns international relations into a much more unpredictable and far more dangerous game than it ever was before the bomb.  As such, being a nosy superpower is now basically a job requirement.  If you can't keep Iran from nuking the shit out of Israel...game over, man.  For like...everyone.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #136 on: July 29, 2011, 05:09:11 AM »
Wow, I have learned a great deal today.

And you've certainly done a fine job at making it clear to me that I am wrong and why I'm wrong.
Holy fuck, have these sentences ever been typed in P/R before?
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Offline XJDenton

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #137 on: July 29, 2011, 05:28:44 AM »
:lol
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #138 on: July 29, 2011, 07:55:41 AM »
This is an historic moment; archive the thread.
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Offline Demolition

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Re: Will the US default?
« Reply #139 on: July 29, 2011, 08:18:05 AM »
If you take a look at how the bond market is trading it appears the big money is saying we will not default.  Money is pouring into bonds.  If the big money was afraid of default money would be leaving bonds.