Bart Ehrman's about to dropkick the Christ Myth

[Adami]

TJ, knock it off if you want to stay on these forums.  Your trolling has about pushed the limits of my patience.

Excuse me? Trolling? Where did I troll? Where?

I'm assuming, just assuming mind you, that he's talking about when you said that everyone who believes in heaven and hell is a moron.

[tjanuranus]

Have to be kidding. Right?

[Adami]

Have to be kidding. Right?

I very well might be wrong, but I'm not kidding.

[tjanuranus]

Someone said that anyone who believes what i believe is a moron. I said that the name calling was BS. The moderator stepped in and said it was ok to say people who believe different than you can call morons. So i said people who believe different than me are morons. I am missing something?

[Adami]

Someone said that anyone who believes what i believe is a moron. I said that the name calling was BS. The moderator stepped in and said it was ok to say people who believe different than you can call morons. So i said people who believe different than me are morons. I am missing something?

Hey dude, I'm not taking sides, I was just trying to answer your question.

[Zook]

Someone said that anyone who believes what i believe is a moron. I said that the name calling was BS. The moderator stepped in and said it was ok to say people who believe different than you can call morons. So i said people who believe different than me are morons. I am missing something?

Can I step in and ask again why you think Jesus didn't exist? I don't think the Jesus portrayed in the bible existed, but there was definitely a man named Jesus that did some stuffs long ago.






OK OK, I don't know that, but for him to be COMPLETELY made up seems a bit much. He was just a small town gir... Guy.

[tjanuranus]

Someone said that anyone who believes what i believe is a moron. I said that the name calling was BS. The moderator stepped in and said it was ok to say people who believe different than you can call morons. So i said people who believe different than me are morons. I am missing something?

Can I step in and ask again why you think Jesus didn't exist? I don't think the Jesus portrayed in the bible existed, but there was definitely a man named Jesus that did some stuffs long ago.

OK OK, I don't know that, but for him to be COMPLETELY made up seems a bit much. He was just a small town gir... Guy.

Honestly i am shocked at how I'm being treated right now and as of right now not interested in participating in a real discussion because i'm upset. I thought this place was cool. I guess if you don't believe what the mods believe you're a piece of shit and you don't matter and you can be called a moron, idiot, etc. and when you say something that back you're trolling.

[tjanuranus]

To make it clear, if you want to call people morons on a message board I'm fine with it as long as it goes both ways. On here it apparently doesn't.

[Zook]

Someone said that anyone who believes what i believe is a moron. I said that the name calling was BS. The moderator stepped in and said it was ok to say people who believe different than you can call morons. So i said people who believe different than me are morons. I am missing something?

Can I step in and ask again why you think Jesus didn't exist? I don't think the Jesus portrayed in the bible existed, but there was definitely a man named Jesus that did some stuffs long ago.

OK OK, I don't know that, but for him to be COMPLETELY made up seems a bit much. He was just a small town gir... Guy.

Honestly i am shocked at how I'm being treated right now and as of right now not interested in participating in a real discussion because i'm upset. I thought this place was cool. I guess if you don't believe what the mods believe you're a piece of shit and you don't matter and you can be called a moron, idiot, etc. and when you say something that back you're trolling.

Hey dude, I may not believe some of what you believe, but I'm with you on this one, brother.

[GuineaPig]

Can you at least articulate your beliefs so that we know where you're coming from?

[Adami]

To make it clear, if you want to call people morons on a message board I'm fine with it as long as it goes both ways. On here it apparently doesn't.

I totally agree with it was way off base to call you and others who believe what you do morons, however it would have been more prudent to just report the post instead of saying something for the sole purpose of upsetting others.

[tjanuranus]

Quite simply i believe Jesus is a story thay is based on many stories written before. A lot of people believe this and a lot don't. Whether a Guy named Jesus existed 2000 years ago is irrelevant to me, I have a least five guys named Jesus in my apartment complex. I don't know for a fact there wasn't someone named Jesus. If enough evidence presented itself I would change my mind but it would take quite a lot to change my beliefs on Christianity itself though. I don't think that makes me a moron though. I have read many books in the subject and I'm well educated on it but I realize I could be wrong. Most of my family are Christians and my parents are pastors I don't have I'll will toward people who believe differently than I do.

[tjanuranus]

To make it clear, if you want to call people morons on a message board I'm fine with it as long as it goes both ways. On here it apparently doesn't.

I totally agree with it was way off base to call you and others who believe what you do morons, however it would have been more prudent to just report the post instead of saying something for the sole purpose of upsetting others.

I tried To but the moderator dismissed it as well. So I just wanted to show others how it feels to be on the other side because apparently it's not a big deal.

[yeshaberto]

TJ, I would feel much more strongly about it if I knew that Rumby had someone in mind on this board that he was referring to as a moron.  In that case, the comment would have been completely unacceptable and worthy of warning.
Your point is well taken that it inadvertantly offended you.
I think we can go ahead and move on back to the thread discussion.

[Ħ]

On topic: Jesus existed.  We have a truckload of evidence.  The end.

[Adami]

On topic: Jesus existed.  We have a truckload of evidence.  The end.

I think I'm going to start referring to him as Joshua, see if anyone catches on.

[rumborak]

OK, I'm wallowing over one too many beers at an Irish bar in Madrid because Germany just got kicked out of the World Cup, but given they have free wifi here, I'll respond:

TJ, the bizarre thing is, we're probably 2 millimeters away from each other in terms of viewpoint. To elaborate on my statement, I just don't like extremist views. And that includes the people who think there is no historical basis for Jesus, and it of course especially includes the morons who think the Earth is 6,000 years, or think Evolution is wrong.
So there you have it. I by no means meant to insult you. And for fuck's sake, you and I should *really* not find ourselves on the opposite of the divide. To plainly and simply say it, if you think Jesus didn't exist in any way at all, you probably haven't spent much time reading on the subject. And that's OK actually, because frankly Christianity is, rudimentarily, not that interesting. I walked through a museum in Madrid today, and I was soooo tired of yet another depiction of the same fucking scriptural scene. There was not a single picture of an interesting subjects, like love, war, jealousy, whatnot. Only depictions of random stories, because as a moral framework it doesn't provide much. Exhibit A: Michelle Bachman. To ones who have any depth to their morals usually get it from outside their Christian framework.

But, to get back on the subject (I need another beer, damn you Japan!), let me assure you from someone on the same "side", Jesus did indeed exist. He was someone who considered himself a prophet of bad things to come. He was in good company, you could pave the street with prophets like him, since the people he was preaching to were looking for this kind of thing (oppressed by Romans, anyone?)
He died unceremoniously, and just like the dudes who followed Camping, they tried to make sense of the abject failure of their prophet. Enter "post-death sightings", and the theory of resurrection that followed. And enter a guy who would become the main driving force behind Christianity, but who had never met Jesus in any way or form, other than "his vision".

Getting a beer, brb.

rumborak

[William Wallace]

Quite simply i believe Jesus is a story thay is based on many stories written before. A lot of people believe this and a lot don't. Whether a Guy named Jesus existed 2000 years ago is irrelevant to me, I have a least five guys named Jesus in my apartment complex. I don't know for a fact there wasn't someone named Jesus. If enough evidence presented itself I would change my mind but it would take quite a lot to change my beliefs on Christianity itself though. I don't think that makes me a moron though. I have read many books in the subject and I'm well educated on it but I realize I could be wrong. Most of my family are Christians and my parents are pastors I don't have I'll will toward people who believe differently than I do.

What books have you read on this subject?

[tjanuranus]

On topic: Jesus existed.  We have a truckload of evidence.  The end.

George Lucas comes in and decides to start adding chapters. Now open for debate.

[tjanuranus]

Quite simply i believe Jesus is a story thay is based on many stories written before. A lot of people believe this and a lot don't. Whether a Guy named Jesus existed 2000 years ago is irrelevant to me, I have a least five guys named Jesus in my apartment complex. I don't know for a fact there wasn't someone named Jesus. If enough evidence presented itself I would change my mind but it would take quite a lot to change my beliefs on Christianity itself though. I don't think that makes me a moron though. I have read many books in the subject and I'm well educated on it but I realize I could be wrong. Most of my family are Christians and my parents are pastors I don't have I'll will toward people who believe differently than I do.

What books have you read on this subject?

I may get back to this after doing the touragraphy project. This is a lot of work!

[Zook]

I already thought Rumborak was awesome, but after wallowing in beer, he posts with what I can see, not a single error in grammar.

[reo73]

...the morons who think the Earth is 6,000 years, or think Evolution is wrong.

Bosk...If you are going to do "drive by" moderating you should keep the playing field equal.  This could be viewed as just as offensive.

[XJDenton]

Right, a few things to say.

Rumborak, whilst I agree with you on the matter of extremist viewpoints you should be careful about the language you choose when making statements about a large group of people. Especially in a forum environment such as this where there are a vast range of opinions on all ends of the spectrum, chances are if you call a group moronic chances are you are going to offend someone. Rule 3 applies to everyone, no matter how extreme their opinion. So keep the language civil please.

TJ, the reason you were reprimanded was for the way you responded to the posts. You could have explained the reason for your anger from post one, reported the post and let the moderators deal with it, or PMd one of us. Instead you instantly made a group of posts that were aggressive in tone, and in the case of this post:

Ok people who believe that believe in Heaven and Hell are big fucking morons.

Also quite clearly baiting people. So next time talk to the mod staff. Its what we are here for.

On a general note, I would like to remind people that especially in this section of the forum, people can be extremely passionate about their beliefs and for the most part you all do an excellent job of keeping things civil and focused on debate. This is the only way this section can work, so make an effort to think about what you are saying before you post it. If you have a critique of a viewpoint, then make it. Just keep it civil. Insults, no matter how seemingly innocent can cause shit to escalate quickly in an environment that can become as heated as this one.

[tjanuranus]

Right, a few things to say.

Rumborak, whilst I agree with you on the matter of extremist viewpoints you should be careful about the language you choose when making statements about a large group of people. Especially in a forum environment such as this where there are a vast range of opinions on all ends of the spectrum, chances are if you call a group moronic chances are you are going to offend someone. Rule 3 applies to everyone, no matter how extreme their opinion. So keep the language civil please.

TJ, the reason you were reprimanded was for the way you responded to the posts. You could have explained the reason for your anger from post one, reported the post and let the moderators deal with it, or PMd one of us. Instead you instantly made a group of posts that were aggressive in tone, and in the case of this post:

Ok people who believe that believe in Heaven and Hell are big fucking morons.

Also quite clearly baiting people. So next time talk to the mod staff. Its what we are here for.

On a general note, I would like to remind people that especially in this section of the forum, people can be extremely passionate about their beliefs and for the most part you all do an excellent job of keeping things civil and focused on debate. This is the only way this section can work, so make an effort to think about what you are saying before you post it. If you have a critique of a viewpoint, then make it. Just keep it civil. Insults, no matter how seemingly innocent can cause shit to escalate quickly in an environment that can become as heated as this one.

going to PM you now.

[William Wallace]

So...about Ehrman's book...

[hefdaddy42]

TJ, to set the record straight, rumby didn't violate any forum rules with his post, he didn't call you (TJ) a name.  That would have been a violation of rule 3.  Now, knowing this, read your first post in this thread and see what kind of sense it makes to any mod here.

rumby made a general statement about an opinion that he holds.  That is what is done in every subset of every forum on these boards. He didn't say "tjanuranus is a moron because he believes in such-and-such".

Now if you have such an extreme opinion that no such person named Jesus ever existed (which is a minority opinion even among atheists), then why not start a thread about it to open up some discussion so we can all learn something about this viewpoint?  In that case, it would be understandable why you took such umbrage at rumby's post.  However,

I guess if you don't believe what the mods believe you're a piece of shit and you don't matter and you can be called a moron, idiot, etc. and when you say something that back you're trolling.

This is crap, because while some of the mods are Christian, many others aren't, and for sure most of the people who post here aren't, and no one gets away with calling them morons.  Furthermore

Whether a Guy named Jesus existed 2000 years ago is irrelevant to me, I have a least five guys named Jesus in my apartment complex. I don't know for a fact there wasn't someone named Jesus.

If this is your stance, then I don't know why you're upset at what rumby posted in the first place.  After all, here is the entirety of rumby's statement on the matter which made you upset.

the moron atheists who claim Jesus didn't exist at all.

Based on what you posted, this doesn't appear to be your stance.

So, I have explained my stance as fully as possible using my words, your own words, and rumby's words.  Not sure what else I can do.  Sorry you were offended.

[PowerSlave]

So...about Ehrman's book...

If the book is just going to make arguments/present evidence about the existence of Jesus then I don't think it would interest me much. But, if he's going to expand on the subject I might get the book. I'll wait on your review, WW.

[William Wallace]

So...about Ehrman's book...

If the book is just going to make arguments/present evidence about the existence of Jesus then I don't think it would interest me much. But, if he's going to expand on the subject I might get the book. I'll wait on your review, WW.

What do you mean by "expand on the subject"?

[PowerSlave]

I'm not sure how to best put it in words so, excuse me if I sound like an idiot.

If he simply puts together an argument for the existance of Jesus then it doesn't mean anything to me. I already believe that Jesus existed and I believe that he played an important role in the politics and views of the time that he existed because of his royal bloodline and the company that he kept as well as his views on the society of his time. That's as far as my belief in Jesus goes and it would be a waste of time for me to read a book that simply affirms what I already believe.

However, if Ehrman decides to talk about things in the scripture that I find questionable or myth and sheds a new light on them (wether I agree with him or not) I'll probably be interested in reading the book.

[William Wallace]

I'm not sure how to best put it in words so, excuse me if I sound like an idiot.

If he simply puts together an argument for the existance of Jesus then it doesn't mean anything to me. I already believe that Jesus existed and I believe that he played an important role in the politics and views of the time that he existed because of his royal bloodline and the company that he kept as well as his views on the society of his time. That's as far as my belief in Jesus goes and it would be a waste of time for me to read a book that simply affirms what I already believe.

However, if Ehrman decides to talk about things in the scripture that I find questionable or myth and sheds a new light on them (wether I agree with him or not) I'll probably be interested in reading the book.

Oh, that makes sense. I just wasn't sure what you meant. I'm interested for the same reason. Being familiar with all the arguments, I'm curious what he's going to include in the book.

[PowerSlave]

Going slightly off-topic here but, I wonder if I could get a suggested reading list from some of the guys that post in here a lot about religioun? I've read some books here and there but, I have a ton of questions and would really like to expand myself on the subject.

For example, I'd like to learn how the pharisees came into the picture. Is it something that's covered in macabees (I havn't read the books, only a brief overview of the history of the time because of my mostly protestant up-bringing). Didn't King Hezekiah declare that any places of worship outside of Jerusalem were outlawed thus, making the pharisees outlaws (yes, I realize that they were several hundreds of years apart but one could effect the other...)? What about Qumram and the essenes? I'm going off of memory here and could have the wrong person (KH) or my time line screwed up. Also, I'd like to do some reading on better translations ect. ect...

WW, Hef, Rumborak, Bosk or anyone else want to point me in some direction?

[hefdaddy42]

I would recommend reading the works of Josephus.

[William Wallace]

Also, I'd like to do some reading on better translations ect. ect...

That's a lot to cover, so I'd start with one subject at a time. On the issue of translations, I'd start with Misquoting Jesus or Reinventing Jesus. The latter has more of an apologtics flavor to it. Take your pick. Arthur Patzia's The Making of the New Testament is also really good.  Stay away from anyone or anything suggesting that the KJV is somehow magically more reliable than the other translations. It's not. There are more academic choices, but if the material is new to you any of the above will be a good starting place.