Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rogue One

[BlobVanDam]

I agree with the criticisms of TFA, and can see how someone could not like the movie because of it. I'm also not a JJ fan and think he's a hack.




That said, I cannot comprehend any possible way that TFA comes close to being as truly awful the prequels, even ROTS.

[Kotowboy]

That said, I cannot comprehend any possible way that TFA comes close to being as truly awful the prequels, even ROTS.

Agree. I think JJ makes great films. The writing isn't always the best but on a massive studio production - we don't know what goes on behind the scenes.

Kasdan and Abrams may have written a great script and Kathleen Kennedy might have got an uncredited writer to make it more like ANH.


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EDIT : And Revenge Of The Sith gets singled out as the "good" prequel just by dint of it being the least awful. It's still not a "good" movie.

[Implode]

And I feel like I large part of that is simply because something actually finally happens with the plot. The plots of I and II are just kind of like...."What's happening? Why? Who? What does this have to do with anything?"

[Nick]

To each their own I guess. Given decades and countless millions of dollars I expected a lot better of episode VII. As I said, the prequels do have their issues, certainly, but I can enjoy them. Episode VII I wanted to enjoy, but then at every turn the terrible regurgitated story just made me shake my head and feel sad for the franchise.

[bosk1]

To each their own I guess. Given decades and countless millions of dollars I expected a lot better of episode VII. As I said, the prequels do have their issues, certainly, but I can enjoy them. Episode VII I wanted to enjoy, but then at every turn the terrible regurgitated story just made me shake my head and feel sad for the franchise.

It definitely had its flaws.  But I can honestly say that, even acknowledging that my fandom is making me bend over backwards to give it the benefit of the doubt and overlook some of those flaws, I never felt close to what you describe.

[Kotowboy]

I think for a lot of people - Episode 7 was a relief. It was essentially a remake - but at least it felt like Star Wars again.

[Polarbear]

That said, I cannot comprehend any possible way that TFA comes close to being as truly awful the prequels, even ROTS.

Agree. I think JJ makes great films. The writing isn't always the best but on a massive studio production - we don't know what goes on behind the scenes.

Kasdan and Abrams may have written a great script and Kathleen Kennedy might have got an uncredited writer to make it more like ANH.


---------

EDIT : And Revenge Of The Sith gets singled out as the "good" prequel just by dint of it being the least awful. It's still not a "good" movie.

Agreed.

TFA has flaws sure, the countless similarities to ANH being the biggest negative.

But compared to the wooden acting from certain key characters, horrendous cgi, the complete logical disconnect at times and TFA looks like a masterpiece by comparison.

Despite being a huge star wars fan, i still have troubles finishing AoTC, from beginning to end. Thank god for The Clone Wars animated show, which actually manages to fix some of the problems from the prequels.

[Kotowboy]

Even if you compare like for like :

• CG - Obviously TFA looks better but was used appropriately with "more" physical sets and characters. ( yes I know the prequels had a lot of physical sets too but it also had an over-reliance on CG )

• Acting - Even great actors like Liam Neeson and Ewen McGregor sounded wooden and flat. The only one enjoying himself is Ian McDiarmid. He plays Palpatine like a Panto Villian.

• Plot - Yes TFA is recycled and even generic but at least it's easy to follow and you have clear villains VS heroes. Nothing like Padme and her myriad decoys etc... and a hugely convoluted plot

about Tax and Trade Blockades and Senates and Councils and elections and how the f--- would a 12 yr old understand all that ?

[gmillerdrake]

Even if you compare like for like :

• CG - Obviously TFA looks better but was used appropriately with "more" physical sets and characters. ( yes I know the prequels had a lot of physical sets too but it also had an over-reliance on CG )

• Acting - Even great actors like Liam Neeson and Ewen McGregor sounded wooden and flat. The only one enjoying himself is Ian McDiarmid. He plays Palpatine like a Panto Villian.

• Plot - Yes TFA is recycled and even generic but at least it's easy to follow and you have clear villains VS heroes. Nothing like Padme and her myriad decoys etc... and a hugely convoluted plot

about Tax and Trade Blockades and Senates and Councils and elections and how the f--- would a 12 yr old understand all that ?

TFA has flaws sure, the countless similarities to ANH being the biggest negative.

But compared to the wooden acting from certain key characters, horrendous cgi, the complete logical disconnect at times and TFA looks like a masterpiece by comparison.

Despite being a huge star wars fan, i still have troubles finishing AoTC, from beginning to end. Thank god for The Clone Wars animated show, which actually manages to fix some of the problems from the prequels.

Agree with all of this. For me the only redeeming factor of the prequels was McGregor. And by that I mean he gave the best performance out of any of them despite the material he was given. I've re-watched the prequels TWICE in recent months with my boys...hoping to pick up on something I missed or finally 'get it'....they are just bad. The CGI is laughable...literally...my nine year old literally laughed at the CGI in AOTC. ROTS was 'alright' but by that point in the prequel trilogy you'd been waiting so long for something good to happen it was too late IMO.

I've stated it before here....Abrams was in the tough position of luring the large majority of 'old school' Star Wars fans back to the franchise and captivating 'new' audiences with TFA. The formula he used by shining up the 'story' of ANH and introducing a couple other new elements was perfect IMO and it did the trick and pulled off what he was asked to do. I highly doubt as the next two films come out that we get re-hashes of ESB and ROTJ. But TFA was absolutely written and given to us the way it should have been in order to achieve the mandate before them.

[Kotowboy]

Also The Force Awakens is a soft-reboot done right.

Jurassic World was pretty much the same idea - but the execution was nowhere near as good.

[bosk1]

Not calling you out specifically, Gary, but I hate seeing people refer to TFA as a "rehash."  It isn't.  The callbacks are intentional and, for the most part, are a plot device.  Calling it a "rehash" is just lazy and is missing the point.

EDIT:  And, no, it isn't a "soft-reboot" or any such nonsense either.  Wish I could come up with less inflammatory terminology, but calling it that just seems like a lack of movie-viewing IQ.

[Kotowboy]

Soft reboot just means a film that is part sequel and part remake.

Which Force Awakens & Jurassic World sort of are. They're both sequels in the same universe and timeline but they're also sort-of remakes of the original movie.

Terminator Genisys also falls into that category.

[bosk1]

But it's in no way "part remake."  It isn't remaking anything.  It is a straight-up continuation of an existing story.  "Remake" and "reboot" are completely inaccurate terminology.

[BlobVanDam]

It's in no way a reboot, soft or otherwise, just a highly derivative sequel.

[Kotowboy]

It's not an exact remake of anything but it borrows EXTENSIVELY from A New Hope.

[Kotowboy]

[Implode]

It's like poetry in that it rhymes with ANH. Every scene kind of rhymes with one from that movie.

[Kotowboy]

BB8 is the key to all this

[gmillerdrake]

Not calling you out specifically, Gary, but I hate seeing people refer to TFA as a "rehash."  It isn't.  The callbacks are intentional and, for the most part, are a plot device.  Calling it a "rehash" is just lazy and is missing the point.

totally agree with the bold. I couldn't think of a great term to describe it....the story structure is similar and those call backs are for the explicit purpose of enchanting a disenfranchised 'older' fan base with something comfortable and familiar that would allow those of us who had that bad taste in our mouths from the prequels to take a comforting breath and realize these next three films aren't going to be the train wreck the prequels were.

I like Rouge One...I watched it again yesterday with the kiddos. It's a cool film and a cool addition to the SW lore and universe. But if I were 'forced' to pick one, TFA or RO, I'd go with TFA for a couple reasons...of which the most glaring one is the characters. Even after watching RO twice I still don't feel any 'connection' at all to the characters. I didn't during the movie nor do I now. They were well portrayed and certainly served a purpose but I didn't find them endearing at all. The lack of discussion about any of them in this thread speaks to the lack of any connection to them. On the other hand, after TFA came out this thread burned through page after page discussing Rey, Kylo Ren...Finn...Poe and on and on.

[Adami]

It's like poetry in that it rhymes with ANH. Every scene kind of rhymes with one from that movie.

Reminds me of this quote from Annie Hall.

JERRY: Acting is like an exploration of the soul.
      I-it's very religious.  Uh, like, uh, a
      kind of liberating consciousness.  It's
      like a visual poem.
ALVY: (Laughing) Is he kidding with that crap?

[TheOutlawXanadu]

To me, it is more or less objectively true that The Force Awakens had a similar plot to A New Hope and made a lot of call-backs to the original trilogy.

However, that statement then takes on a zillion different subjective reactions. I've heard some people kindly describe the film as an "homage". I've heard some use the more neutral "soft-reboot". Then there are those who call it a "rip-off".

I think that what it comes down to, at the end of the day, is just how big of a deal you want to make it. A "retro movie" or whatever George Lucas called TFA isn't necessarily a bad thing, and it's certainly not an unforgivable thing, at least in my opinion, unless you want to make it so.

[gmillerdrake]

I think that what it comes down to, at the end of the day, is just how big of a deal you want to make it. A "retro movie" or whatever George Lucas called TFA isn't necessarily a bad thing, and it's certainly not an unforgivable thing, at least in my opinion, unless you want to make it so.

well stated

[bosk1]

Not calling you out specifically, Gary, but I hate seeing people refer to TFA as a "rehash."  It isn't.  The callbacks are intentional and, for the most part, are a plot device.  Calling it a "rehash" is just lazy and is missing the point.

totally agree with the bold. I couldn't think of a great term to describe it....the story structure is similar and those call backs are for the explicit purpose of enchanting a disenfranchised 'older' fan base with something comfortable and familiar that would allow those of us who had that bad taste in our mouths from the prequels to take a comforting breath and realize these next three films aren't going to be the train wreck the prequels were.

Well, yes, that's certainly true.  But that isn't what I meant.  The callbacks and structure are not simply to pander (in a good way) to the older fan base.  They serve a purpose in the story.  There is a theme of history being cyclical and repeating itself, or of "destiny" intervening and making things happen in a similar way to accomplish a bigger purpose.  We're supposed to feel like we've been there before, not just because "oooo, Disney Studios made us feel all Star-Warsy again; let's like Disney Studios." Rather, we're supposed to feel that way because we are supposed to feel like, "even though Vader/Anakin was supposed to (and did) bring balance to the force, the characters did not learn from the mistakes of the past, so the same thing is happening again and the same problems are recurring.  This isn't a new idea.  It has been done in film many times in many contexts.

That's more what I meant.  Although they certainly wanted to have a lot of those callback to sort of "repair the damage" Lucas had done with some of the fan base, and to reassure fans that this is indeed the Star Wars we all knew and loved in the '70s and '80s, the callbacks and similar structure serve a broader purpose in the story as well.

Now of course, whether or not that actually worked is a different debate altogether.  For me personally, it mostly worked, although I feel it went just a bit too far a few times.  But overall, yeah, I think it was effective.

[BlackInk]

I love The Forced Awakens. Is the plot more similar to A New Hope than it needed to be? Absolutely. But the characters aren't. I can't really think of any character that is especially similar to any of the ANH people. That's what brings me back to TFA, the characters. Like I said, the plot of the movie isn't perfect, and could definetely have been better, but in the end it's no big deal for me because it's an insanely fun movie from beginning to end.

[Adami]

I love The Forced Awakens. Is the plot more similar to A New Hope than it needed to be? Absolutely. But the characters aren't. I can't really think of any character that is especially similar to any of the ANH people. That's what brings me back to TFA, the characters. Like I said, the plot of the movie isn't perfect, and could definetely have been better, but in the end it's no big deal for me because it's an insanely fun movie from beginning to end.

I loved the characters, but most of them really do have original trilogy counterparts. Rey is essentially a combination of the most famous parts of Luke, Leia and Han. Poor girl living on a desert planet with hopes of becoming more? Luke. Tough sassy girl that will carry out her mission at all costs? Leia. Cocky pilot who comes in to save the day? Han. What made her character work is that Daisey was essentially a walking figure of charisma. And god damn was she charismatic.

Poe was essentially an updated Han solo.

I'll give you Finn. New character, and he really worked.

Hell, you even had an ancient tiny alien who knows the mysteries of the force to come and help at the end.


I'll also bet that Kylo is the result of JJ looking at what George was trying to do with that monster failure of Anakin and saying "....I bet I could make that work". He succeeded.

[Kotowboy]

Maz Kanata was definitely a Yoda analogue.

[pogoowner]

I love The Forced Awakens. Is the plot more similar to A New Hope than it needed to be? Absolutely. But the characters aren't. I can't really think of any character that is especially similar to any of the ANH people. That's what brings me back to TFA, the characters. Like I said, the plot of the movie isn't perfect, and could definetely have been better, but in the end it's no big deal for me because it's an insanely fun movie from beginning to end.

Agreed. Maz is the only one that I think is overly similar. I definitely like the new characters in TFA a lot more than those in Rogue One. As for the callbacks and similarities to A New Hope, the only one that really bothers me is Starkiller Base, which I find ludicrous for multiple reasons.

[Kotowboy]

Starkiller base is just " Death Star ? pffft - this is a sequel - it has to be the size of a planet. "


That said - I was confused when they destroyed it in TFA. I assumed it would be the new threat for the new trilogy. What's the big threat going to be in Episodes 8 and 9 ?

Just Snoke ?

[BlackInk]

That said - I was confused when they destroyed it in TFA. I assumed it would be the new threat for the new trilogy. What's the big threat going to be in Episodes 8 and 9 ?

Just Snoke ?

Maybe more personal stakes? I don't know, could work. Or maybe Force Storms as described in the expanded universe or something like that. Equally, if not more, dangerous than the death star. I don't know.

I loved the characters, but most of them really do have original trilogy counterparts. Rey is essentially a combination of the most famous parts of Luke, Leia and Han. Poor girl living on a desert planet with hopes of becoming more? Luke. Tough sassy girl that will carry out her mission at all costs? Leia. Cocky pilot who comes in to save the day? Han. What made her character work is that Daisey was essentially a walking figure of charisma. And god damn was she charismatic.

I think at that point you've got a new character. They're all going to share characteristics on some level, and personality-wise I don't think Rey resembles any of the examples you gave. I just don't think any of the original ANH crew would act as Rey did if put in her shoes. Broadly speaking maybe they'd do similar things, but the dialogue or just the way she speaks just wouldn't fit Luke or Leia or Han.

Poe was essentially an updated Han solo.

I don't think so. Poe is an optimistic, generally positive, and all around nice person, everything Han wasn't when we first met him, and still really wasn't by the end. Just because they both have a bit of sass (although the sass is a lot stronger with Han) and know how to fly a spaceship doesn't really make them counterparts. I bet there's a lot of sassy pilots in the galaxy.

Yoda and Maz have similar roles in the story (I guess?), and they're both small, but they're quite different as characters.

[Adami]

We can just agree to disagree then. Luckily we both loved the characters.


As far as the threat in VIII, keep in mind that Empire, the most universally praised SW movie had no huge threat. It was all personal stories.

[Kotowboy]

I sighed a couple of times in Rogue One.

- 1 when R2 & 3PO were just there... for 2 seconds.

- Again when someone said " i've got a bad feeling about this..."


How about you make a SW that doesn't have to clobber you over the head with Nostalgia every 5 mins ?

[BlackInk]

I was okay with both of those examples. R2 and 3PO being there makes sense, and I think that line is a fun thing. What I did roll my eyes at though was the cantina trouble maker guys appearing on Jeddha. That was just too much.

[Implode]

How about you make a SW that doesn't have to clobber you over the head with Nostalgia every 5 mins ?

That's what makes the money though

[Kotowboy]

So we're just gonna get 9 films of fan pandering.

[Implode]

That's what a large portion of the past two films have been so...that's a relatively safe bet. It's a safe bet for Disney too.

I just hope that the movies can also be good in their own right. I thought TFA definitely was. Rogue One feel a little short.