Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rogue One

[Adami]

The fact that Empire was so pivotal (of course it was.  Act 2 is usually the pivotal act) is why I'm reserving final judgment on TFA.  The next two can literally make everything about TFA awesome or a joke.  Quite frankly, that's good writing.  When a sequel movie is pivotal and each can't really work without the other.  That is the beauty of Star Wars.

Making a movie dependent on the movie that will come after it is not good writing.

  What?

If I have to watch movie B to enjoy movie A, then movie A was not well done.

[Kotowboy]

The fact that Empire was so pivotal (of course it was.  Act 2 is usually the pivotal act) is why I'm reserving final judgment on TFA.  The next two can literally make everything about TFA awesome or a joke.  Quite frankly, that's good writing.  When a sequel movie is pivotal and each can't really work without the other.  That is the beauty of Star Wars.

Making a movie dependent on the movie that will come after it is not good writing.

  What?

If I have to watch movie B to enjoy movie A, then movie A was not well done.

[bosk1]

I still don't follow you, Adami.  Intentionally obscuring a plot point so as not to reveal it too early, as in the example Jester just gave, makes the prior movie necessarily dependent on the later movie where the big reveal will take place. 

[Adami]

I still don't follow you, Adami.  Intentionally obscuring a plot point so as not to reveal it too early, as in the example Jester just gave, makes the prior movie necessarily dependent on the later movie where the big reveal will take place.

Yea, but i more meant that it doesn't also work as a film in its own.

Events in Star Wars depend on Empire to fully make sense and events in Empire require Jedi.
But they all succeed as their own movie.

I can watch either of those 3 films and not need to watch the next to love it.

A counter example is Pirates 2. It doesn't really work as a movie because it doesn't do anything besides set up the next movie.

It's more when you need the sequel to love the original.


It's also possible I'm arguing something totally different and being an idiot.

[Kotowboy]

I think what you're saying is when a sequel tries to fix the problems of the first movie is when the first movie fails.

I be Alien Covenant will try to fix prometheus.

[Jester]

The fact that Empire was so pivotal (of course it was.  Act 2 is usually the pivotal act) is why I'm reserving final judgment on TFA.  The next two can literally make everything about TFA awesome or a joke.  Quite frankly, that's good writing.  When a sequel movie is pivotal and each can't really work without the other.  That is the beauty of Star Wars.

Making a movie dependent on the movie that will come after it is not good writing.

  What?

If I have to watch movie B to enjoy movie A, then movie A was not well done.

Then this would unequivocally make TFA the worst movie of the SW franchise.  Using that standard outright calls for the conclusion.

The big difference between ANH and TFA is that Lucas went into ANH having a larger picture, but realizing it could also be the only Star Wars movie ever made if it wasn't received well.  So he had to move some elements from other episodes (Death Star) to ANH and both set it up for more and have a somewhat conclusive ending.  That was purely because of the economics of movie making itself.  TFA went in with a near guarantee that it would absolutely be the first in the trilogy.  The fact that R1 production started before TFA was even released was concrete proof to the studios commitment.

[Jester]

Let's compare it to the standard Hollywood sequel.

Those sequels, 99% of the time, are just a new adventure that was never meant to be an extension of the first other than the first set up financial funding and proved the business model.

As much as I love Rocky, the sequels did provide a nice look at the career of a boxer, but it seemed pretty clear that the stories were an afterthought.  One could even argue that Rocky 2 somewhat ruined Rocky 1.  The story of a boxer that just wanted to have one event he could point to in his life and say "I did that".  He didn't "want no rematch".

It was a huge hit.  Rocky 2 found a way to make it a story worth telling, but it clearly was not where Rocky 1 was headed.  I can appreciate both.  Heck, I even like the Rocky movies that are *jokes*.  But in some ways, they took away from the Rocky 1 story.  I just try to put that out of my mind and enjoy them.

[Jester]

Now let's talk about the "please shoot me" Hollywood sequel+ franchises.

Ghostbusters 2 was pure crap and probably hurt the Ghostbusters original's legacy.  And the reboot, well, it really made Cartman's view of the world credible.

[Kotowboy]

Speaking of pointless sequels - there's a Flatliners remake out next year...............

CANNOT WAIT FOR THE INEVITABLE HEADLINE WHEN IT TANKS.

[bosk1]

Speaking of pointless sequels, there's no need to post three times in a row instead of simply editing your original post if there is something you want to add.

[Kotowboy]

Because nobody else did that or anything.

[Jester]

So don't post too many words, if the chapter (post) gets too long or the tangent calls for a new chapter (post), wait until somebody else posts, not knowing if the thread is going to go dead or in overdrive?

Seems like a lot of work for casual discussion.  Star Wars

[Kotowboy]

s paceshi ps

[Adami]

The fact that Empire was so pivotal (of course it was.  Act 2 is usually the pivotal act) is why I'm reserving final judgment on TFA.  The next two can literally make everything about TFA awesome or a joke.  Quite frankly, that's good writing.  When a sequel movie is pivotal and each can't really work without the other.  That is the beauty of Star Wars.

Making a movie dependent on the movie that will come after it is not good writing.

  What?

If I have to watch movie B to enjoy movie A, then movie A was not well done.

Then this would unequivocally make TFA the worst movie of the SW franchise.  Using that standard outright calls for the conclusion.

I disagree. I think it worked just fine as a movie.

[bosk1]

So don't post too many words, if the chapter (post) gets too long or the tangent calls for a new chapter (post), wait until somebody else posts, not knowing if the thread is going to go dead or in overdrive?

No.  As I said, edit the existing post to add in the new information rather than tacking on an endless string of consecutive posts. 

And, Kowtow, I don't need you either giving your own two cents on moderating the forum when I am attempting to instruct a new member on how to post appropriately, or you spamming the thread by posting things that don't contribute anything to the discussion, like "s paceshi ps."

[Jester]

I disagree. I think it worked just fine as a movie.

So if that was a standalone movie, you'd be ok with hearing about this Luke Skywalker and how important he is to have it just end with that scene?

What would you know about Luke?  He set up some school, screwed it up and ran into hiding ... therefore we need him to stop ... what?  Starkiller base?  Nope.

Seven not only absolutely needs 1 to 6 to work, but without question needs at least an 8.

Finn was simply goofball with little value.  Don't tell me how the janitor (that was out on the most important mission for some odd reason) knew that you need to upset the flux capacitor or how to blow it up and what it would mean was vital to the story in anyway.

Brought Rey into the alliance, I mean resistance? Nope.  That was BB8 and running from the Empire, I mean First Order.  He told her where the base was.  Wait, that was BB8.  Oh, he said shields are bad.  Did they not know that using ... an IQ above mentally incompetent?

As the movie stands on its own, it will rate low for me.  It really needs the rest of the saga to give it any meaning or direction.  It is extremely easy to pick apart, so I am assuming this has more to do with the setup stages and the "hiding" of plot points and true character backgrounds.  Therefore, I'm not going say my questions are actual problems as of this point.

[Jester]

And, Kowtow, I don't need you either giving your own two cents on moderating the forum when I am attempting to instruct a new member on how to post appropriately, or you spamming the thread by posting things that don't contribute anything to the discussion, like "s paceshi ps."

I'll be honest.  Obviously kotow and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum on Star Wars.  But his s paceshi ps post I found charming as a friendly wink "hey, we are just having a fun conversation and we aren't taking this as seriously or as personally as the previous words might suggest."  I appreciate when people can challenge each other without feeling challenged.

I don't know if somebody is going to post between this and my last post, but I think there is something to be said for separating one post in response to Adami (a friendly response about Star Wars) and this post a response to Kotow as much to boskadmin.  It does happen frequently here.  PR forum is filled with it, Stadler being the #1 offender.  Has it been brought to his attention?

[Stewie]

I saw Rogue One on Friday night, and loved it! I definitely enjoyed it more than The Force Awakens. I guess since it ties in with the original film's story, it made it all the better. Did anyone else have the urge to watch A New Hope as soon as you got home? 

[gmillerdrake]

Although inevitable.....I feel like the comparison between TFA and RO isn't really apples to apples. Abrams and his team were petitioned with the monument two task or not only recapturing the damaged interest of the 'original' Star Wars Fans to make up for the sour taste the prequels left in the majority of people's mouths....they also were mandated to make a movie that would introduce and usher in a whole new wave of fans. I really don't see how that could have been done any better than they did.

The RO folks pretty much had free reign as far as what type of direction they wanted to tell the story of stealing the Dearh Star plans. That was their only constraint. Your stealing the plans for the Death Star. Tell us how they did it.

I enjoyed the heck out of both movies....but they are completely different mind sets.

[Adami]

I disagree. I think it worked just fine as a movie.

So if that was a standalone movie, you'd be ok with hearing about this Luke Skywalker and how important he is to have it just end with that scene?

What would you know about Luke?  He set up some school, screwed it up and ran into hiding ... therefore we need him to stop ... what?  Starkiller base?  Nope.

Seven not only absolutely needs 1 to 6 to work, but without question needs at least an 8.

Finn was simply goofball with little value.  Don't tell me how the janitor (that was out on the most important mission for some odd reason) knew that you need to upset the flux capacitor or how to blow it up and what it would mean was vital to the story in anyway.

Brought Rey into the alliance, I mean resistance? Nope.  That was BB8 and running from the Empire, I mean First Order.  He told her where the base was.  Wait, that was BB8.  Oh, he said shields are bad.  Did they not know that using ... an IQ above mentally incompetent?

As the movie stands on its own, it will rate low for me.  It really needs the rest of the saga to give it any meaning or direction.  It is extremely easy to pick apart, so I am assuming this has more to do with the setup stages and the "hiding" of plot points and true character backgrounds.  Therefore, I'm not going say my questions are actual problems as of this point.

First off, this is NOT a friendly conversation. We are at war sir!

Kidding of course.

I think we're just defining "works as a movie" differently.

Also, I said dependent on subsequent movies. Having a movie need the previous movies is fine and logical. So that's not what I was getting at.


But here, I'll illustrate my basic point in a quick sentence.

Could you see yourself, ever, just wanting to watch TFA by itself? Like it's a Tuesday evening and you're in the mood for the movie, do you ever imagine just watching TFA without also having to watch whatever Episodes 8 and possibly 9 are? If so, that's how I define working just fine as a movie.

Do you think anyone ever just wants to watch Pirates 2 by itself? No. Because it doesn't work as a movie, only as a piece of a (lame) puzzle. Same with Matrix 2. Unless it's to see how good/bad it is, no one wants to watch it by itself.

Cool? We cool.

[BlackInk]

For the record, Pirates 2 is my favorite in the franshise and I've watched it multiple times by itself.

Also, I define "works as a movie" by how much I enjoy watching it. I've seen TFA five times at the theater and the one more time at home. Once episodes 8 and 9 are out, watching TFA might make me want to continue on to the rest, but it won't make me not enjoy my time watching TFA. So that's why I think it works "on its own", while it will definetely depend on the others to tell the full story. I don't fault an episode of TV for depending on the other episodes.

[Polarbear]

This is how i'd rank the SW movies now, after i've had some time to process Rogue One..

1. The Empire Strikes Back
2 A New Hope
3. The Force Awakens
4. Return of the Jedi
5. Rogue One



6. Revenge of the Sith
7. Phantom Menace
8. Attack of the Clones

[Adami]

This is how i'd rank the SW movies now, after i've had some time to process Rogue One..

1. The Empire Strikes Back
2 A New Hope
3. The Force Awakens
4. Return of the Jedi
5. Rogue One



6. Revenge of the Sith
7. Phantom Menace
8. Attack of the Clones

Hmmm....this might change upon repeated viewings of TFA and Rogue One, but....

1. Empire
2. A New Hope
3. Rogue One
4. TFA
5. Jedi
6. Phantom
7. Revenge
8. Holiday Special
9. Caravan of Courage
10. Attack of the Clones

[Logain Ablar]

8. Holiday Special
9. Caravan of Courage
10. Attack of the Clones

 

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I don't have an actual ranking order; rather, I have my tiers:

-- Tier 1: The Classics
A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back

-- Tier 2: Awesometacular
The Force Awakens, Rogue One

-- Tier 3: Really Good
Return of the Jedi

-- Tier 4: It's Star Wars, I Enjoy It, but It Ruins Darth Vader
The Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones, Revenge of the Sith

[Kotowboy]

Your rankings are forgetting : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_The_Clone_Wars_(film)



EDIT : FU HTML !

[Phoenix87x]

I like Jedi a lot, its just that the tone is very different than Empire. That dark, threatening and perilous feeling is gone. That rush, that excitement, that urgency. I just don't feel it. Even the sharp whitty humor and dialogue isn't there really. The film just kind of plays out.

Sure you have wicked scenes like the duel before the emperor and the space battle, but then there's sharp shifts in tone to the wacky, cute and cuddly Ewoks

And going after another death star feels kind of redundant as well. I would have liked to see Luke "surrender" himself or something to be transported to coruscant and brought before the Emperor. And then the entire rebel fleet attacks coruscant and Luke/Vader defeat the emperor, Vader dies and Luke lowers the shields from the heart of the capital or something. At least something different than another death star.

[BlackInk]

1. The Empire Strikes Back
2. The Force Awakens
3. Revenge of the Sith
4. Return of the Jedi
5. Rogue One
6. A New Hope
7. Attack of the Clones
8. The Phantom Menace

[Zantera]

1. Empire Strikes Back
2. The Force Awakens
3. A New Hope
4. Return of the Jedi
5. Rogue One
--
6. Phantom Menace
7. Revenge of the Sith
8. Attack of the Clones

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

I enjoyed the movie alot, actually more than I thought. Didn't really have much expectations for this movie comparerd to TFA so I went into it with curiosity rather than hype. I think the main thing I enjoyed the most was how entertaining and fun the movie was.

K-2SO was a fun surprise, some of his lines were hilarious which I didn't expect. Btw I didn't realise Alan Tudyk (Firefly) did his voice, that was cool.

I have to agree that the first Vader scene felt weird for some reason, not sure why. The Vader fight scene was cool though.

Overall, the movie was a nice surprise.

[Adami]

Someone needs to make a very quick edit of the film where Vader's line about choking on aspirations is cut out, thus making that scene a lot better.

[Zantera]

Someone needs to make a very quick edit of the film where Vader's line about choking on aspirations is cut out, thus making that scene a lot better.

But that was the best part of the scene

[Adami]

Someone needs to make a very quick edit of the film where Vader's line about choking on aspirations is cut out, thus making that scene a lot better.

But that was the best part of the scene

I find your lack of taste disturbing.

[Kotowboy]

" Don't choke on your aspirations..."


...*Curb Your Enthusiasm theme plays...*

[BlackInk]

I thought the line was okay. Cheesy, but I didn't really mind.