Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rogue One

[orcus116]

Well the whole point in bringing up the Jedi Knights thing is to kinda prove that for someone who is so desperate to shove in everyone's face how much Star Wars is his and he's the only one who knows right George Lucas pays little attention to simple detail and stupid mistakes like that. So yes it very much is valid criticism, especially in showcasing how sloppy and amateurish Lucas has handled the entire Prequel Trilogy and beyond.

[Super Dude]

And actually my point is Lucas can't get away with the "it's for kids" excuse considering he's actually contradicting himself, or in other words, excusing himself.

[zepp-head]

I don't think the timing's the issue.  The OT were pretty densely plotted as well.  They were on the Death Star 45 minutes into Star Wars.

I want to chime in one last time because this simply isn't true.  They land on the Death Star at about 65 minutes in.  As far as plot density, the prequels have a lot more going on than the originals, I don't think that can really be debated.  So whether that is a good or bad thing is up to you.

I will agree that the biggest problem of The Phantom Menace was that it was trying to be child-friendly and adult at the same time, due to the complexity of the plot. 

Well the whole point in bringing up the Jedi Knights thing is to kinda prove that for someone who is so desperate to shove in everyone's face how much Star Wars is his and he's the only one who knows right George Lucas pays little attention to simple detail and stupid mistakes like that. So yes it very much is valid criticism, especially in showcasing how sloppy and amateurish Lucas has handled the entire Prequel Trilogy and beyond.

No offense to you personally, but this is really absurd. 

I get that you guys don't like the prequel films, and you guys are entitled to those opinions and I won't try to change them.  But I do feel that many of you are missing out on some great stuff for one reason or another.  Judging by all the posts and comments I've read on the topic over the years, I think it's safe to say I enjoy Star Wars more than anyone else here, but I think there is an inherent danger in protecting the divinity in something that is not divine.  There are lots of things the originals do (not in a good way) that they get away with that the prequels are maligned for when they do a similar thing, if not the exact same thing.  If there existed in the prequels a logic gap as big as Leia's behavior and actions in A New Hope, I would certainly still be reading about it on these boards today. 

I mean, the woman was making snarky height jokes within possibly hours of her home planet being destroyed.  Also, knowing they were being tracked, willingly led the Empire to the Rebel Base she worked so hard to hide.  But hey that's Star Wars, right? 

I get the complaints.  I do.  The problem I see is that many think I'm cinema illiterate or some other derogatory term for enjoying these films or thinking that they're *gasp* good in many ways.  I've seen all the snarky jabs, ridiculous claims, legitimate criticisms and even personal attacks.  I've been through a lot of film school though (I'm an MA), and I don't say that to mean that my opinion is worth any more than anyone's here, quite the opposite, I mean that in the sense that I've had enough theory and criticism training to know that my opinion is NOT more valuable than anyone else's here, but I DO know what I'm talking about.  But keep in mind that your opinions on the films are just that, and nobody here is entitled to their own set of facts, the prequels were not very ill-received by critics (ROTS was actually quite favorable) and they are enjoyed a much wider audience than most films ever will be (weird to think about, I know). 

Just wanted to get that out of the way.  Carry on.

[Ryzee]

And actually my point is Lucas can't get away with the "it's for kids" excuse considering he's actually contradicting himself, or in other words, excusing himself.

Dude, we need to stop paying attention to what Lucas says, that fool's crazy!  When you get that rich it starts to mess with your brain, maybe it has something to do with the dye they use in $100 bills, I don't know.  I'll quote the wise Alexander Knox- "The rich.  You know why they're so odd?  Because they can afford to be."

[ZBomber]

Weird question, and it's been awhile since i watched star wars but... can Jedi Knights take apprentices? Or is it only jedi masters? And if the latter, how come Anakin took an apprentice before he became a jedi master?

I can't remember if that was explained in the clone wars movie, and i havent watched any of the episodes, but it might not even be an issue so I DONT KNOW

[zepp-head]

Weird question, and it's been awhile since i watched star wars but... can Jedi Knights take apprentices? Or is it only jedi masters? And if the latter, how come Anakin took an apprentice before he became a jedi master?

I can't remember if that was explained in the clone wars movie, and i havent watched any of the episodes, but it might not even be an issue so I DONT KNOW

You become a master once you have successfully trained your first apprentice into knighthood. 

[TL]

As far as plot density, the prequels have a lot more going on than the originals, I don't think that can really be debated.  So whether that is a good or bad thing is up to you.

The thing is, they have a ton of things going on, but they never really develop anything nearly enough. The stakes are rarely clear, and none of the elements in play are given breathing room to grow into anything. In the originals, there are fewer things going on, which gives each series of events more time to play out, each character more time to be developed, and it allows the viewer to make more of a connection.

[orcus116]

Plus the ones in the original were actually interesting. I never saw the main storyline of the prequels as anything other than a lazy vehicle to carry the Anakin transformation so even if you were into that character arc you had to wade through a bunch of a crap to get to anything to like.

[ACID_FOX]

I want TOR inside me.

[emindead]

Oh my God. One nap after and we're into the 1:05:00 mark and they just entered the Death Star. The additions George Lucas did to this Blu-Ray Special Edition is really dense and it's making the movie REALLY boring. The special effects are terrible, the CGI Jabba was just too much.

I really hope TESB is going to be much better. My lack of faith is disturbing.

[Fiery Winds]

Oh my God. One nap after and we're into the 1:05:00 mark and they just entered the Death Star. The additions George Lucas did to this Blu-Ray Special Edition is really dense and it's making the movie REALLY boring. The special effects are terrible, the CGI Jabba was just too much.

I really hope TESB is going to be much better. My lack of faith is disturbing.

Some of them are pretty bad, but I've just gotten used to them.  My biggest beef is that animal the obscures the camera for no good reason in Mos Eisley.  I haven't watched TESB yet, but I believe it's the least modified version of them all.

[emindead]

So far so good. Some minor tweaks here and there (I'm still at Hoth) but not THAT bad like in the first 2/3 of A New Hope.

[orcus116]

Some of the technical fixes (removing black lines, filling in transparencies, etc) are great fixes. The ones that meddle with the storyline aren't.

[Adami]

Oh my God. One nap after and we're into the 1:05:00 mark and they just entered the Death Star. The additions George Lucas did to this Blu-Ray Special Edition is really dense and it's making the movie REALLY boring. The special effects are terrible, the CGI Jabba was just too much.

I really hope TESB is going to be much better. My lack of faith is disturbing.

Pretty sure those were done for the special editions way back when.

[blackngold29]

Made it through the prequels. They all look fantastic; even better than I had expected. I thought that the CGI aspects of some, particularly Episode I, would come off cheesy looking with a clearer picture but somehow it made them look better.

Obviously the real test is the OT, hoping to watch IV tomorrow.

[Super Dude]

Is it true that ESB is the least tweaked film of all of them?

[ZBomber]

Is it true that ESB is the least tweaked film of all of them?

From what I've read, yes.

[Adami]

After watching the interviews with the actors from the prequels, I can no longer blame them for their horrid performances. They all talked about how it was nearly impossible to have any idea what the hell was going on during their shoots.

[Super Dude]

After watching the interviews with the actors from the prequels, I can no longer blame them for their horrid performances. They all talked about how it was nearly impossible to have any idea what the hell was going on during their shoots.

Oh wow, where can I see that?  Did Hayden say the same?

[Adami]

After watching the interviews with the actors from the prequels, I can no longer blame them for their horrid performances. They all talked about how it was nearly impossible to have any idea what the hell was going on during their shoots.

Oh wow, where can I see that?  Did Hayden say the same?

First bonus disk on the blu rays has show interviews randomly thrown in there. And yea Hayden actually seems like a cool guy, his mess ups were pretty damn funny. But he talked about how the whole movie hard it was because there was so little direction given to anyone. Every Star Wars actor (even the originals) complained that George has no idea how to direct actors. Plus, when you have Natalie Portman, Liam Neeson, Ewan McGregor etc all giving horrible performances, the problem can't simply be with them. Hayden was pretty good in that Shattered Glass movie, so I blame every problem with the movie on George Lucas because he's an awful writer/director.

[Super Dude]

After watching the interviews with the actors from the prequels, I can no longer blame them for their horrid performances. They all talked about how it was nearly impossible to have any idea what the hell was going on during their shoots.

Oh wow, where can I see that?  Did Hayden say the same?

First bonus disk on the blu rays has show interviews randomly thrown in there. And yea Hayden actually seems like a cool guy, his mess ups were pretty damn funny. But he talked about how the whole movie hard it was because there was so little direction given to anyone. Every Star Wars actor (even the originals) complained that George has no idea how to direct actors. Plus, when you have Natalie Portman, Liam Neeson, Ewan McGregor etc all giving horrible performances, the problem can't simply be with them. Hayden was pretty good in that Shattered Glass movie, so I blame every problem with the movie on George Lucas because he's an awful writer/director.

But seriously, that's interesting.

[TL]

I still like Ewan McGregor's interview on Top Gear when he's talking about filming his final scene in ROTS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yprYaqOEAoA

About a minute in.

[Super Dude]

It's certainly enlightening.  I hope someone puts up the aforementioned blu-ray interviews somewhere.

[MetalJunkie]

Seriously, Lucas? Enough already!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thIL9UVABhE

[bosk1]

I still like Ewan McGregor's interview on Top Gear when he's talking about filming his final scene in ROTS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yprYaqOEAoA

About a minute in.

Do you have another source?  That one has been removed.

[ehra]

This might be it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z08pO0nDCPA

[blackngold29]

This man probably deserves his own thread, but: https://youtu.be/U61MnRPve0g

[petrucci07]

This might be it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z08pO0nDCPA

I was watching Jonathan Ross' chat show last night, and Ewan told that exact anecdote (albeit in more detail).

[Super Dude]

I'm interested, do elaborate.

[petrucci07]

Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlc01vH8kLU

[dbrooks22]

After watching the interviews with the actors from the prequels, I can no longer blame them for their horrid performances. They all talked about how it was nearly impossible to have any idea what the hell was going on during their shoots.

Oh wow, where can I see that?  Did Hayden say the same?

First bonus disk on the blu rays has show interviews randomly thrown in there. And yea Hayden actually seems like a cool guy, his mess ups were pretty damn funny. But he talked about how the whole movie hard it was because there was so little direction given to anyone. Every Star Wars actor (even the originals) complained that George has no idea how to direct actors. Plus, when you have Natalie Portman, Liam Neeson, Ewan McGregor etc all giving horrible performances, the problem can't simply be with them. Hayden was pretty good in that Shattered Glass movie, so I blame every problem with the movie on George Lucas because he's an awful writer/director.

Here's the thing though - in the originals, the acting was, for the most part, pretty damn good.  The actors may complain, but they did a GREAT job.  Alec Guinness, Ford, Fisher, Jones, even Hamill was great (in his role).  But in the prequels, everyone except McDiarmid was horrible.  Was it the blue screens, as Ewan attested to?  Maybe. 

[Super Dude]

After watching the interviews with the actors from the prequels, I can no longer blame them for their horrid performances. They all talked about how it was nearly impossible to have any idea what the hell was going on during their shoots.

Oh wow, where can I see that?  Did Hayden say the same?

First bonus disk on the blu rays has show interviews randomly thrown in there. And yea Hayden actually seems like a cool guy, his mess ups were pretty damn funny. But he talked about how the whole movie hard it was because there was so little direction given to anyone. Every Star Wars actor (even the originals) complained that George has no idea how to direct actors. Plus, when you have Natalie Portman, Liam Neeson, Ewan McGregor etc all giving horrible performances, the problem can't simply be with them. Hayden was pretty good in that Shattered Glass movie, so I blame every problem with the movie on George Lucas because he's an awful writer/director.

Here's the thing though - in the originals, the acting was, for the most part, pretty damn good.  The actors may complain, but they did a GREAT job.  Alec Guinness, Ford, Fisher, Jones, even Hamill was great (in his role).  But in the prequels, everyone except McDiarmid was horrible.  Was it the blue screens, as Ewan attested to?  Maybe.

Yes but note that those same actors complained about George directing when he was directing.  George did not direct ESB or ROTJ.

[chrisbDTM]

IMO thats why ESB is the best

[Super Dude]

Mine too.  I believe someone in this thread mentioned that that same director publicly stated that George does not make films, he makes movies.  I think his work on ESB shows that.

[ReaPsTA]

Here's the thing though - in the originals, the acting was, for the most part, pretty damn good.  The actors may complain, but they did a GREAT job.  Alec Guinness, Ford, Fisher, Jones, even Hamill was great (in his role).  But in the prequels, everyone except McDiarmid was horrible.  Was it the blue screens, as Ewan attested to?  Maybe.

Even McDiarmid was bad in ROTS.  But in fairness, I think he intentionally chose to just give up on really acting and enjoy the paycheck.  You can tell tell he makes a mental switch right at the "I am the Senate" line, which sounds so unnecessarily ridiculous.  I imagine that this conversation happened:

George "Okay, so Ian, this is the scene where the Anakin converts into Darth Vader."
Ian "Yeah.  I figured I'd read it ahead of time so I could mentally prepare."
George "The emperor in this scene has to be really evil.  He's been hiding his true nature for years, but now he can finally show it."
Ian "Yeah.  Like, you put the makeup on where we see his true evil physically revealed, and I think that's a physical metaphor for his emotional state."
George "The makeup means he's evil, right.  So for this scene, I was really thinking about old monster movies like Frankenstein when I wrote it."*
Ian "Hm.  I never really thought of the Emperor as just an all out monster.  I mean, he's monstrous emotionally, but his manner is very sophisticated."
George "He was pretending to be sophisticated before."
Ian "I was just thinking about how in Jedi where you could see his hate burning beneath the surface, and before he shocked Luke with the lightning he was almost scarily polite."
George "Ummm....  We're getting off topic here.  This is the prequel trilogy, they're different movies."
Ian "They certainly are."
George "Hm?"
Ian "Sorry, just talking to myself."
George "Okay.  Anyway, just make sure Palpatine is really evil.  His voice should be really deep, but have a sinister snarl to it."
Ian "Doing that requires two completely different vocal techniques.  I'd like to choose one of them and really develop it."
George "No, it will work.  Like, when you say 'Once more the Sith will rule the Galaxy!' make sure it's super evil sounding.  But earlier in the scene, when he's talking to Anakin about cheating death, it should sound really even and creepy."
Ian "So basically, I should talk in a different voice depending on the moment."
George "Exactly!"
Ian "And you really just want me to play up how evil the character is."
George "Now you're getting it."
Ian "Alright George, I'll take care of it.  Thank god I'm an established Shakespearean actor and this won't possibly ruin my reputation."
George "What?"
Ian "Sorry, talking to myself again."
George "Oh, okay."

I should mention though that the scene where he tells the Darth Plagueis story, even though it kinda doesn't make sense on a number of levels, is one of the best scenes in Star Wars, purely because of McDiarmid's acting.

----------------

*95% true.