Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rogue One

[Adami]

In the 70's, George could right.


But he lacks that ability anymore.

[orcus116]

Also he did have some high profile science fiction writers editing his screenplays and ideas for him back then.

[Adami]

Also he did have some high profile science fiction writers editing his screenplays and ideas for him back then.

Well he only wrote one of the scripts. Was that one edited the way you say?

[orcus116]

That was not.

[Adami]

Ah, didn't he also write american grafitti? that movie rocked.

[orcus116]

I still need to see that. Even crazy people have their stints of genius.

[Adami]

I still need to see that. Even crazy people have their stints of genius.

Or maybe he used to be a good writer, then just lost the ability. That happens a lot. Look at John Petrucci.

[blackngold29]

American Graffiti is the only musical that I like. And yes, it was Lucas's intention to make it a musical going into it. Obviously not the break out into song type, but it's got a lot of music. Need to see that again sometime.

[Vivace]

Lucas pulled out two movies that had pretty decent writing: American Graffiti and THX1138. THX1138 is certainly his most creative. For those who really want to be disappointed. Watch Star Wars again, but this time really pay attention to the dialogue. Yeah... it's pretty harrowing here as well, but the story makes up for it so much we actually don't pay attention to just how bad the lines really are.

[Hal Incandenza]

Lucas pulled out two movies that had pretty decent writing: American Graffiti and THX1138. THX1138 is certainly his most creative. For those who really want to be disappointed. Watch Star Wars again, but this time really pay attention to the dialogue. Yeah... it's pretty harrowing here as well, but the story makes up for it so much we actually don't pay attention to just how bad the lines really are.

Exactly.  It also helps that many of the cheesiest lines are delivered by Alec Guinness, who has so much dignity that the cheese isn't so noticeable.  Just imagine the "wretched hive of scum and villainy" line from somebody who was just phoning it in, or lacked Guinness's gravitas.  As it is, it's a well-remembered line, and actually does what Lucas wanted it do do.  That's because Guinness is awesome.

[Cool Chris]

Ah, didn't he also write american grafitti? that movie rocked.

Yes he did (with a little help from the couple that worked on Temple of Doom); and yes it does. It is an amazing piece of film portraying a unique aspect of American life (at least in the 60s). The blend of story, music, character are top notch, and something I feel he never replicated. Anyone who hasn't seen it needs to.

[TL]

With Episode IV, and the original trilogy in general, Lucas had a LOT of help, and a lot of feedback.
Originally, Luke was supposed to be an old man with a robot head, and Han Solo was a frog type thing. Based on feedback others gave him, he changed those details. The main difference with the prequels is that he had long gotten rid of anyone who would question his ideas, and surrounded himself with a bunch of yes men.

[orcus116]

Man if that was the case I highly doubt he had any clue as to what the prequels were going to look like. I call bullshit that he had 1-6 mapped out in any form.

[ReaPsTA]

Lucas didn't even know Vader was Luke's dad until he was outlining the story for Empire.

[blackngold29]

Lucas didn't even know Vader was Luke's dad until he was outlining the story for Empire.

Which was while he was outlining IV.


Vader being "father" in dutch isn't a coincidence.

[orcus116]

Were you the guy who liked Episodes 1 and 3 over the OT? Not saying that in a condescending way just asking.

[ReaPsTA]

Lucas didn't even know Vader was Luke's dad until he was outlining the story for Empire.

Which was while he was outlining IV.


Vader being "father" in dutch isn't a coincidence.

Alright, look.  I actually own a book called the secret history of Star Wars.  The author went to great lengths to look at interviews and story documents in order to trace when Lucas came up with certain story ideas.  And then he backs them up so they don't sounds like ridiculous fan speculation.  The book's sufficiently expensive for me to want to expect that.

So when I type "to the best of my knowledge, Lucas didn't start really working out Empire until after A New Hope, and that was when he decided Vader was Luke's father."  I'd really hope you believe me.  I guess we can do that thing where I get the book out and quote the specific paragraphs I'm getting this from.  My e-penis gets off on knowing that I'm very knowledgeable about Star Wars and can smack around people on the internet who know less than me.

But why go through all of that?

[blackngold29]

Were you the guy who liked Episodes 1 and 3 over the OT? Not saying that in a condescending way just asking.

I am not. I don't hat them as much as everyone else, but the OT is no doubt superior.

Lucas didn't even know Vader was Luke's dad until he was outlining the story for Empire.

Which was while he was outlining IV.


Vader being "father" in dutch isn't a coincidence.

Alright, look.  I actually own a book called the secret history of Star Wars.  The author went to great lengths to look at interviews and story documents in order to trace when Lucas came up with certain story ideas.  And then he backs them up so they don't sounds like ridiculous fan speculation.  The book's sufficiently expensive for me to want to expect that.

So when I type "to the best of my knowledge, Lucas didn't start really working out Empire until after A New Hope, and that was when he decided Vader was Luke's father."  I'd really hope you believe me.  I guess we can do that thing where I get the book out and quote the specific paragraphs I'm getting this from.  My e-penis gets off on knowing that I'm very knowledgeable about Star Wars and can smack around people on the internet who know less than me.

But why go through all of that?

It's very likely that he decided that Vader was his father while writing Empire. My point is that he started outlining/writing Empire prior to the release of A New Hope.

Not that he's making stuff up, but The Secret History of Star Wars isn't an authorized book. And based on my viewing of every bonus feature on every Star Wars DVD, he had all six very roughly outlined before ANH. From what I can tell Rinzler's The Making of Star Wars would be the definitive book on the topic since he had unlimited access to anything he wanted inside LucasFilm, I don't have it though.


I've spent a lot of time arguing Star Wars on the internet. It's a fun pastime, I won't lose any sleep tonight over it.

[skydivingninja]

I'm sure a lot of stuff in that book is true, Reap, but like BnG said, naming Vader after the dutch word for "father" isn't a coincidence.  Maybe he didn't start writing it till after ANH, but I'm sure he had a basic outline.

[orcus116]

I can't help but feel that someone making a book published by LucasBooks is akin to a scientist getting a grant to do research. The end product is going to mimic whatever viewpoints of the person who is writing the checks.

[blackngold29]

I can't help but feel that someone making a book published by LucasBooks is akin to a scientist getting a grant to do research. The end product is going to mimic whatever viewpoints of the person who is writing the checks.

Well Lucas has never read a Star Wars novel, so I don't know why he'd start reading non fiction.

Really though, what reason would they have to make shit up?

[ReaPsTA]

I can't help but feel that someone making a book published by LucasBooks is akin to a scientist getting a grant to do research. The end product is going to mimic whatever viewpoints of the person who is writing the checks.

Ding ding ding ding ding

Really though, what reason would they have to make shit up?

Because Lucas is a smart business man.  Part of the branding of Star Wars is that he's a super genius who made the whole thing up in his head years and years ago.

If you read old interviews from the past, you can tell Lucas never had a consistent idea of what Star Wars was supposed to be.  At one point he talked about making twelve films.  Before A New Hope made tons of money, he was planning to have other authors write sequel novels and do other things.

I can sorta see your point.  A source that actually has personal contact with Lucas is going to get more intimate details.  But the possibility for bias is so much higher, especially when Lucas has clear motive to change the story.

[zepp-head]

The reason behind the Vader name and its Dutch translation is that Anakin and Vader were originally two separate characters.  The light father and the dark father, two sides of the same coin.  He probably toyed around with the idea a lot, but they were not officially one character until The Empire Strikes Back was getting fleshed out.

[TL]

One of my favorites is how, while he was making the OT, Lucas insisted time and time again that the Star Wars films were to be taken seriously, and that they weren't just kids films.

When Phantom Menace was so poorly received, he began to insist that all of the Star Wars films were just kids films, and that people shouldn't take them so seriously.

[Voyage 34]

And based on my viewing of every bonus feature on every Star Wars DVD, he had all six very roughly outlined before ANH.

I just can't believe that. The absolutely clumsy way he tried to like the OT to the other movies shows he did not have it planned out. Especially all of that brining balance to the force and prophecy BS. Lucas may say now that he had it all mapped out, even in a very basic way, but I think it's crap.

[Adami]

I'd just like to point out that "roughly planned out" could EASILY just look like this.

Episode 1: Anakins a child, meets obi-war at some point and joins jedi order
Episode 2: Kids a young adult, young jedi, struggles with jedi order, clone wars start, palpatine starts to take over
Episode 3: Clone wars in full force, Anakin is full jedi and starts feeling seduced by the dark side, Palpatine makes his move, Obi-Wan and Anakin fight.


That's it. That's roughly planned out, and it's very possible that he may have had that since the begining.

[ReaPsTA]

One of the things specifically talked about in Secret History of STar WArs is that Lucas used roughly 20% of his pre-planned story in TPM, 20% in AOTC, and then had to cram 60% into ROTS.

[TimmyHiggy]

One of my least favourite things about the new SW films is that when people talk about them, you almost always get asked "you mean the second one to be made, episode V, or episode II?"
Even if you don't want to watch them, they haunt you!!!

[Voyage 34]

One of the things specifically talked about in Secret History of STar WArs is that Lucas used roughly 20% of his pre-planned story in TPM, 20% in AOTC, and then had to cram 60% into ROTS.

Is that to say that TPM and AOTC are 80% filler?

[ReaPsTA]

One of the things specifically talked about in Secret History of STar WArs is that Lucas used roughly 20% of his pre-planned story in TPM, 20% in AOTC, and then had to cram 60% into ROTS.

Is that to say that TPM and AOTC are 80% filler?

My memory's hazy, but I think in Lucas's opinion he enjoyed having the chance to do all these different things with the technology to show the Star Wars universe in ways he didn't feel he could before.  Plus, he was really interested in showing Anakin as a child.

[orcus116]

And proving how bad a completely digital movie looks.

Is that to say that TPM and AOTC are 80% filler?

AOTC is about as close to 100% filler as you can get.

[YtseJam]

  Plus, he was really interested in showing Anakin as a child.

I knew he was a pedaphile

[Adami]

And proving how bad a completely digital movie looks.

Is that to say that TPM and AOTC are 80% filler?

AOTC is about as close to 100% filler as you can get.

It's sad when you think about it, the only thing that movie actually accomplished was starting the clone wars. Nothing else.

[Voyage 34]

And proving how bad a completely digital movie looks.

Is that to say that TPM and AOTC are 80% filler?

AOTC is about as close to 100% filler as you can get.

It's sad when you think about it, the only thing that movie actually accomplished was starting the clone wars. Nothing else.

And it didn't even do that well. WHY WOULD THE JEDI USE AN ARMY THAT WAS BASED ON CLONING A GUY WHO THEY KNOW WITHOUT A DOUBT IS WORKING FOR THEIR ENEMY?

[blackngold29]

One of my favorites is how, while he was making the OT, Lucas insisted time and time again that the Star Wars films were to be taken seriously, and that they weren't just kids films.

When Phantom Menace was so poorly received, he began to insist that all of the Star Wars films were just kids films, and that people shouldn't take them so seriously.

There's certainly a shift, if he wanted to keep it an adult themed thing ("LOTR in space") the prequels would've been different. But there's an obvious effort to try and please the adult generation that saw the OT as kids, but also try and please their kids and suck them in too. Which, to me at least, explains the entire reason for Jar-Jar Binks to exist.