Author Topic: Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rogue One  (Read 456286 times)

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Offline 425

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread -- USE OTHER THREAD FOR THE FORCE AWAKENS SPOILERS
« Reply #3500 on: December 25, 2015, 10:41:00 PM »
I get where you are coming from.  But let me just suggest something.  When you cast any disagreement or expression of dislike, no matter how reasonably articulated or how slight, as along the lines of:
I just get pretty tired of "well everyone knows the prequels are worse than everything that ever happened and were created when George Lucas was literally possessed by Satan himself."
that type of exaggeration and broad brush painting kind of sets you up for failure from the get go. 

That really isn't that significant of exaggeration of how some people talk about the prequels. If you took out the part about being possessed by Satan, that would be a pretty accurate summary of how many Star Wars fans view the prequels.

I am not casting slight disagreements that way. I am casting claims that the prequels are utterly terrible movies that way.

And it can be useful, rhetorically, to make that type of exaggeration. Particularly if I quote people saying stuff to the effect that the prequels are among the worst films ever (which is not hard to do, because tons of people say that all the time), and then counter by demonstrating that they are not.


And not to dismiss the anecdotal evidence from your own experience, but outside of your own circle of acquaintances, there are PLENTY of younger fans who have the same problems with the prequels, and they are all over YouTube and other Internet sources.  While there may be some correlation, it isn't simply and "old vs. young" thing.

Sure. There are also older fans who like them. But younger fans are much more inclined to like them than older fans.


Are the flaws in the prequels that unnoticeable to these people?

I have actually never seen anyone enumerate the flaws in the prequels besides flaws that anyone, even the most ardent prequel defender, would concede: Flaws like unfunny comedy (Jar Jar) or awkward dialogue (notably between Anakin and Padmé in Attack of the Clones); or attempted critiques that show that the reviewer did not understand a significant portion of the films (for example, reduction of Anakin's turn to the Dark Side to "because he wanted to save Padmé" when there are a number of complicated factors that are laid out in Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith).

Other than that, everyone just says "they have weak plot and characterization." And no one ever says how or why these are weak.

I might be more inclined to give more credibility to prequel hate if any of the haters would actually give a concrete and specific description of what is actually wrong with these films. In the other thread, you could see me give an analysis of what I think were the specific strengths of the Attack of the Clones love story. I spoke specifically about things that that plot achieves and does well. If the haters could give a fairly succinct analysis of things that the prequels do poorly, that would add credibility.

It would also add credibility if these weaknesses did not also exist in the likes of A New Hope. Which, I imagine, most of them do.

So my response to this question would be twofold: 1) Are the claimed significant flaws in the prequels that hard to describe for these people? 2) Is it possible that the flaws in the original trilogy are unnoticeable to some people?
« Last Edit: December 25, 2015, 10:47:58 PM by 425 »
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Offline Zook

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread -- USE OTHER THREAD FOR THE FORCE AWAKENS SPOILERS
« Reply #3501 on: December 26, 2015, 12:28:16 AM »
Sometimes bad acting, boring story, crappy dialogue, and Jar Jar Binks is all it takes to ruin a movie.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread -- USE OTHER THREAD FOR THE FORCE AWAKENS SPOILERS
« Reply #3502 on: December 26, 2015, 01:53:18 AM »
I wouldn't say I used to be a prequel defender, but having grown up and being a kid when they were released, I definitely had lower expectations for film and they weren't bad at the time. Even at the release I didn't think they were close to the OT, but still some cool stuff. I think the eye-opening moment for me was when I watched the Plinkett reviews, and that's when I went from "They're OK I guess" to actually realizing how poorly crafted they actually were. And growing up also played a part. When I was a kid, I didn't really notice the cringeworthy lines or awkward acting, and everything was about the lightsaber fights, but when you get older you start to pay more attention to those things.

Opinions are opinions and all, but I would say the Plinkett reviews is a must watch no matter if you already love or dislike the films. Sure, it's just one man giving his thoughts on the prequels, but he really hits the nail on the head with the problems. Whether it's The Phantom Menace not having a protagonist, the fact that the prequel characters are almost impossible to describe due to lack of character, or how they completely gloss over Anakin's training. What makes his reviews so great is that it's not just a "i like this, i like that.. i hate this, i hate that", and he actually brings up the fundamental basics of what makes a movie and points out that the prequels have flaws in those areas. He barely even goes after Jar Jar, and still has enough dirt to cover a 70-120 minute review for each film.

Offline BlackInk

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread -- USE OTHER THREAD FOR THE FORCE AWAKENS SPOILERS
« Reply #3503 on: December 26, 2015, 05:08:15 AM »
I have actually never seen anyone enumerate the flaws in the prequels besides flaws that anyone, even the most ardent prequel defender, would concede: Flaws like unfunny comedy (Jar Jar) or awkward dialogue (notably between Anakin and Padmé in Attack of the Clones); or attempted critiques that show that the reviewer did not understand a significant portion of the films (for example, reduction of Anakin's turn to the Dark Side to "because he wanted to save Padmé" when there are a number of complicated factors that are laid out in Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith).

Other than that, everyone just says "they have weak plot and characterization." And no one ever says how or why these are weak.

I might be more inclined to give more credibility to prequel hate if any of the haters would actually give a concrete and specific description of what is actually wrong with these films. In the other thread, you could see me give an analysis of what I think were the specific strengths of the Attack of the Clones love story. I spoke specifically about things that that plot achieves and does well. If the haters could give a fairly succinct analysis of things that the prequels do poorly, that would add credibility.

It would also add credibility if these weaknesses did not also exist in the likes of A New Hope. Which, I imagine, most of them do.

So my response to this question would be twofold: 1) Are the claimed significant flaws in the prequels that hard to describe for these people? 2) Is it possible that the flaws in the original trilogy are unnoticeable to some people?

Because you seem to be ignoring the points we make. Never seen anyone explain why? I've seen tons of people explain exactly why they think it's bad.

For example, a lot of people are referensing these Plinkett reviews (which I haven't seen myself), saying that the exact reasons they dislike the movies are covered in detail in those reviews. But you have specifically said that you're not going to watch that. So maybe don't ask for reasons on why people think the movies are bad if you're unwilling to listen.

And super-analyse the plots and love stories and descents to the dark side all you want, it's a movie, if it's not well done, if it doesn't feel like a good movie, it doesn't matter how complex the story is. The acting is wooden, the dialogue is stale and beyond cringe-worthy at times, almost no comedy lands. With those elements all over the movies, it's impossible to make a good movie, even if it's the best story ever.

This might have been already posted.  A friend of mine shared it with me and I found it an interesting perspective on the writing of the prequels.

https://www.gamesradar.com/george-lucas-nearly-wrote-perfect-prequel-trilogy-he-just-didnt-seem-notice/


Very interesting. It just makes it even more disappointing how the movies actually turned out.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread -- USE OTHER THREAD FOR THE FORCE AWAKENS SPOILERS
« Reply #3504 on: December 26, 2015, 11:44:07 AM »
Yeah I definitely recommend checking out the Plinkett reviews. They go into detail about exactly what doesn't work and why a lot of things fall flat. It's up on youtube, or the redlettermedia website. No matter what your stance on the prequels are, the 70 minute Phantom Menace review is definitely worth the time, and if you enjoy that one, there's reviews for AotC and RotS as well.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread -- USE OTHER THREAD FOR THE FORCE AWAKENS SPOILERS
« Reply #3505 on: December 26, 2015, 06:15:37 PM »
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread -- USE OTHER THREAD FOR THE FORCE AWAKENS SPOILERS
« Reply #3506 on: December 27, 2015, 06:22:44 AM »
The Plinkett reviews are really smart and well-done, but part of me wonders if it's really a good thing to nitpick movies with that level of detail. At least half the stuff in his reviews I don't really care about, although he does nail the major stuff.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread -- USE OTHER THREAD FOR THE FORCE AWAKENS SPOILERS
« Reply #3507 on: December 27, 2015, 06:52:22 AM »
This might have been already posted.  A friend of mine shared it with me and I found it an interesting perspective on the writing of the prequels.

https://www.gamesradar.com/george-lucas-nearly-wrote-perfect-prequel-trilogy-he-just-didnt-seem-notice/

Wow... that's actually rather brilliant.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread -- USE OTHER THREAD FOR THE FORCE AWAKENS SPOILERS
« Reply #3508 on: December 27, 2015, 07:05:14 AM »
Too bad Lucas couldn't think of any of that.

Offline faizoff

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread -- USE OTHER THREAD FOR THE FORCE AWAKENS SPOILERS
« Reply #3509 on: December 28, 2015, 07:36:47 AM »
This might have been already posted.  A friend of mine shared it with me and I found it an interesting perspective on the writing of the prequels.

https://www.gamesradar.com/george-lucas-nearly-wrote-perfect-prequel-trilogy-he-just-didnt-seem-notice/


Hate to do this but could someone please copy paste the text? I can't access this link right now. TIA!
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Offline BlackInk

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread -- USE OTHER THREAD FOR THE FORCE AWAKENS SPOILERS
« Reply #3510 on: December 28, 2015, 08:44:43 AM »
The Star Wars prequel trilogy is nearly brilliant. It took me 10 years to realise it, but it’s true. You see, the other night, my girlfriend and I drank a bottle of wine and started – as is entirely understandable – ripping into Episodes I to III. We hit the usual, obvious punching bags – Jar Jar, Anakin’s creepy sex-pest characterisation, the pointless set-pieces – but along the way, we noticed something big. All of the plot points required to make the prequels tell a sensible, meaningful, satisfying and affecting story are actually already in there, either explicitly on-screen or strongly alluded to. But for some reason, George Lucas doesn’t seem to notice that he’s written them, and ignores the lot.

Stick with me on this one. I haven’t gone mad, I promise. It all starts with the fundamentals of Star Wars lore.

You see Star Wars has always been about binary, black-and-white morality. In the Original Trilogy, that works just fine. The good guys are plucky underdogs, and the bad guys are a fascist galactic empire who think nothing of blowing up a populated planet for shits and giggles. In the wider, more complicated world of the pre-Empire days though, things are, and should be, more nuanced.

While they might be merry old samurai hippies in the Original Trilogy, the organised, prolific, altogether more militarised Jedi of the prequel period are a hardcore conservative faction, incredibly rigid in their doctrine, code and methods. They are ubiquitous, unchallenged, and if anything, slightly too powerful. They have restrictions on sexuality, a strict religious code, make free use of mind control for ‘the greater good’, and enforce stoicism to the point of detachment. They demand utter devotion, are run by an oligarchy, and almost entirely cut themselves off from the outside world. Sound a bit cultish? It is.

The Sith, on the other hand, are staunch libertarians. They accept no oversight or control from the state, practice a self-centred philosophy, and value personal freedom over social responsibility. Both sides are arguably problematic in their own ways, their extremist attitudes to their own philosophies making all elements of their conduct potentially rather dangerous. Suddenly the simple, unambiguous lines between the Light and Dark sides are rather blurred. They’re binary opposites in terms of ostensible alignment, but in practice, neither is entirely good or bad. Wherever it stems from, extremism always tends to boil down the same way. And that really raises questions about ‘balance in the Force’.


George Lucas nearly wrote a perfect prequel trilogy. He just didn't notice
David Houghton, Phoebe Wood-Wheelhouse on December 17, 2015

The Star Wars prequel trilogy is nearly brilliant. It took me 10 years to realise it, but it’s true. You see, the other night, my girlfriend and I drank a bottle of wine and started – as is entirely understandable – ripping into Episodes I to III. We hit the usual, obvious punching bags – Jar Jar, Anakin’s creepy sex-pest characterisation, the pointless set-pieces – but along the way, we noticed something big. All of the plot points required to make the prequels tell a sensible, meaningful, satisfying and affecting story are actually already in there, either explicitly on-screen or strongly alluded to. But for some reason, George Lucas doesn’t seem to notice that he’s written them, and ignores the lot.

Stick with me on this one. I haven’t gone mad, I promise. It all starts with the fundamentals of Star Wars lore.

You see Star Wars has always been about binary, black-and-white morality. In the Original Trilogy, that works just fine. The good guys are plucky underdogs, and the bad guys are a fascist galactic empire who think nothing of blowing up a populated planet for shits and giggles. In the wider, more complicated world of the pre-Empire days though, things are, and should be, more nuanced.

While they might be merry old samurai hippies in the Original Trilogy, the organised, prolific, altogether more militarised Jedi of the prequel period are a hardcore conservative faction, incredibly rigid in their doctrine, code and methods. They are ubiquitous, unchallenged, and if anything, slightly too powerful. They have restrictions on sexuality, a strict religious code, make free use of mind control for ‘the greater good’, and enforce stoicism to the point of detachment. They demand utter devotion, are run by an oligarchy, and almost entirely cut themselves off from the outside world. Sound a bit cultish? It is.

The Sith, on the other hand, are staunch libertarians. They accept no oversight or control from the state, practice a self-centred philosophy, and value personal freedom over social responsibility. Both sides are arguably problematic in their own ways, their extremist attitudes to their own philosophies making all elements of their conduct potentially rather dangerous. Suddenly the simple, unambiguous lines between the Light and Dark sides are rather blurred. They’re binary opposites in terms of ostensible alignment, but in practice, neither is entirely good or bad. Wherever it stems from, extremism always tends to boil down the same way. And that really raises questions about ‘balance in the Force’.

Enter Anakin, prophesised as the Chosen One who will bring that balance. It all falls apart, of course - from the Jedi perspective at least - when he is tempted by the Dark Side. The prophecy was a lie! Or was it? Who knows? It all gets a bit confusing, and the remaining Jedi just run away and hide from the issue for a couple of decades. But how about if Anakin’s shift in polarity is actually the would-be product of balance, but his promise is warped by the biases and failings of factions who don’t really want balance at all? 

We hear about balance all the time. It’s portrayed as the Jedi’s key, long-term goal, and the ideal state for all of existence. But even with a respected High Council and countless Knights acting as Galaxy Police, the prospect of just a single Sith/Apprentice combo existing at any given time – “Always two there are” – is far too much to bear. The Jedi version of equilibrium is actually the eradication of the Dark Side. This inherent failing, this self-focused misinterpretation, is the core of what the prequel trilogy should have been about.

With both, deeply flawed sides explicitly battling for control of Anakin’s soul, and the issue of ‘balance’ being front and centre, the stage is clearly set for the young Darth to be not an angry teenager on an inevitable slide to tragedy, but the first moderate Jedi, a thoughtful, questioning young man who can bring actual balance by controversially walking the line between the two factions. The reason he can do this? He can see things no other Jedi can, because he was ‘too old’ at the start of his training.

We’re told this around the time Anakin joins the Jedi, but it’s never properly explained. We’re broadly told that the Jedi only recruit really young, and that Anakin’s ripe old age of nine puts him way over the hill. We hear vague talk that he has ‘too much anger’. We’re told that training him will be impossible. But we’ve already seen Luke successfully trained, at the age of around 17, despite also apparently being “too impatient”, “too angry” and “unfocused”. There must be another explanation.

How’s about indoctrination? After all, it’s a hell of a lot easier to make a recruit accept a dogmatic lifestyle if they start too young to remember anything else. Anakin though, can remember life before his Jedi training. If the films had been brave enough to use him as an audience point-of-view character to explore the nuances and problems with the prequel world, then we would have had a hell of a powerful story set-up. Because good lord, does Anakin see some things.

He sees burgeoning child soldiers, being trained in lightsaber combat, but the scene is played for cuteness rather than moral disturbance. He sees the Jedi regularly control innocent minds for their own ends. He was ‘benevolently’ bullied from his mother’s care – Qui-Gon’s talk with her effectively amounts to ‘He’s a slave, do you want him to remain a slave? Better give him to us. No, I’m not going to rescue you, although I totally could’ – and Anakin must have seen this happen to countless other, Force-sensitive children by Episode II.


George Lucas nearly wrote a perfect prequel trilogy. He just didn't notice
David Houghton, Phoebe Wood-Wheelhouse on December 17, 2015

The Star Wars prequel trilogy is nearly brilliant. It took me 10 years to realise it, but it’s true. You see, the other night, my girlfriend and I drank a bottle of wine and started – as is entirely understandable – ripping into Episodes I to III. We hit the usual, obvious punching bags – Jar Jar, Anakin’s creepy sex-pest characterisation, the pointless set-pieces – but along the way, we noticed something big. All of the plot points required to make the prequels tell a sensible, meaningful, satisfying and affecting story are actually already in there, either explicitly on-screen or strongly alluded to. But for some reason, George Lucas doesn’t seem to notice that he’s written them, and ignores the lot.

Stick with me on this one. I haven’t gone mad, I promise. It all starts with the fundamentals of Star Wars lore.

You see Star Wars has always been about binary, black-and-white morality. In the Original Trilogy, that works just fine. The good guys are plucky underdogs, and the bad guys are a fascist galactic empire who think nothing of blowing up a populated planet for shits and giggles. In the wider, more complicated world of the pre-Empire days though, things are, and should be, more nuanced.

While they might be merry old samurai hippies in the Original Trilogy, the organised, prolific, altogether more militarised Jedi of the prequel period are a hardcore conservative faction, incredibly rigid in their doctrine, code and methods. They are ubiquitous, unchallenged, and if anything, slightly too powerful. They have restrictions on sexuality, a strict religious code, make free use of mind control for ‘the greater good’, and enforce stoicism to the point of detachment. They demand utter devotion, are run by an oligarchy, and almost entirely cut themselves off from the outside world. Sound a bit cultish? It is.

Offline BlackInk

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread -- USE OTHER THREAD FOR THE FORCE AWAKENS SPOILERS
« Reply #3511 on: December 28, 2015, 08:45:04 AM »
The Sith, on the other hand, are staunch libertarians. They accept no oversight or control from the state, practice a self-centred philosophy, and value personal freedom over social responsibility. Both sides are arguably problematic in their own ways, their extremist attitudes to their own philosophies making all elements of their conduct potentially rather dangerous. Suddenly the simple, unambiguous lines between the Light and Dark sides are rather blurred. They’re binary opposites in terms of ostensible alignment, but in practice, neither is entirely good or bad. Wherever it stems from, extremism always tends to boil down the same way. And that really raises questions about ‘balance in the Force’.

Enter Anakin, prophesised as the Chosen One who will bring that balance. It all falls apart, of course - from the Jedi perspective at least - when he is tempted by the Dark Side. The prophecy was a lie! Or was it? Who knows? It all gets a bit confusing, and the remaining Jedi just run away and hide from the issue for a couple of decades. But how about if Anakin’s shift in polarity is actually the would-be product of balance, but his promise is warped by the biases and failings of factions who don’t really want balance at all? 

We hear about balance all the time. It’s portrayed as the Jedi’s key, long-term goal, and the ideal state for all of existence. But even with a respected High Council and countless Knights acting as Galaxy Police, the prospect of just a single Sith/Apprentice combo existing at any given time – “Always two there are” – is far too much to bear. The Jedi version of equilibrium is actually the eradication of the Dark Side. This inherent failing, this self-focused misinterpretation, is the core of what the prequel trilogy should have been about.

With both, deeply flawed sides explicitly battling for control of Anakin’s soul, and the issue of ‘balance’ being front and centre, the stage is clearly set for the young Darth to be not an angry teenager on an inevitable slide to tragedy, but the first moderate Jedi, a thoughtful, questioning young man who can bring actual balance by controversially walking the line between the two factions. The reason he can do this? He can see things no other Jedi can, because he was ‘too old’ at the start of his training.

We’re told this around the time Anakin joins the Jedi, but it’s never properly explained. We’re broadly told that the Jedi only recruit really young, and that Anakin’s ripe old age of nine puts him way over the hill. We hear vague talk that he has ‘too much anger’. We’re told that training him will be impossible. But we’ve already seen Luke successfully trained, at the age of around 17, despite also apparently being “too impatient”, “too angry” and “unfocused”. There must be another explanation.

How’s about indoctrination? After all, it’s a hell of a lot easier to make a recruit accept a dogmatic lifestyle if they start too young to remember anything else. Anakin though, can remember life before his Jedi training. If the films had been brave enough to use him as an audience point-of-view character to explore the nuances and problems with the prequel world, then we would have had a hell of a powerful story set-up. Because good lord, does Anakin see some things.

He sees burgeoning child soldiers, being trained in lightsaber combat, but the scene is played for cuteness rather than moral disturbance. He sees the Jedi regularly control innocent minds for their own ends. He was ‘benevolently’ bullied from his mother’s care – Qui-Gon’s talk with her effectively amounts to ‘He’s a slave, do you want him to remain a slave? Better give him to us. No, I’m not going to rescue you, although I totally could’ – and Anakin must have seen this happen to countless other, Force-sensitive children by Episode II.

By Episode III, the still-young Anakin has a massive facial scar. He must have been through some serious shit already, and, realistically, should be suffering some level of brutalisation/trauma/depression/PTSD. But rather than addressing any of the above, the movies reduce his would-be legitimate issues with the Jedi to arrogant, teenage sulking.

But what if they didn’t? What if, instead of vague, generic complaints of anger and unfairness, Anakin and the Jedi have considered philosophical friction, stemming from Anakin’s intelligent observation, conscious decision-making? Then Anakin has perfectly sensible reasons to have issue with the Jedi, and thus his actions can be understood and empathised with. And most crucially, he has – as every protagonist should have – real agency.

In the existing prequels he bounces haphazardly from crisis, to emotional tirade, to impulsive response, like an out-of-control drunk, coming across as stupid, thoughtless, and devoid of any control over his own path or actions. That’s not how you create an engaging lead character that the audience can really go on a journey with. But if all of the – existing – groundwork were followed through, it would have created a wonderful mirror to Luke's story, Anakin growing to self-realisation and then clashing with the Jedi, just as his son completes the same journey to battle the Sith. There’s poetry there. It rhymes.

There’s balance. 

And there are subtler problems to explore within the Jedi machine, again, largely glossed over, but still there on-screen.  Obi-Wan’s youth and inexperience mean that he isn’t ready for Anakin’s training either, eventually letting the master/student relationship erode into friendship. The idea gets occasional lip-service, but Anakin’s lack of a strong guide or guardian should be the back-bone that informs his entire ‘descent’.

And then there’s Yoda. He appears cold and clueless in the prequels, but there’s a way to make that work in the saga’s favour too. The Original Trilogy introduces Yoda as a spiritual, internalised Jedi of the mind, who knows that inner strength, not outward aggression, brings true power. Blend this with the themes of inward-looking Jedi detachment we’re exploring in this remix, and you have both a great case for Yoda’s prequel trilogy ineffectuality, and a perfect philosophical figurehead for the organisation Anakin opposes. And by training Luke – directly contradicting the old Jedi rules in agreeing to do so – Yoda later gains his own arc of redemption-through-moderation, to parallel that of Vader.

With Yoda an absentee landlord, there’s also plenty of space for hard-ass Mace Windu to ascend as the aggressive, dominant, dogmatic force he should have been, a personification of the Jedi hardline spearheading Anakin’s opposition. With these dynamics explored properly, Anakin is a genuine threat to a genuinely worrying dogma. This doesn’t make him a bad guy, but the more set-in-their ways, extreme Jedi of the Council will see him as exactly that.

As for Padme? Imagine that relationship written plausibly. Imagine that Anakin isn’t a generically angry creep, and that Padme is an intelligent, but pragmatic human being, rather than a flighty robot-woman. Rather than repeatedly blowing hot and cold, and arbitrarily throwing out ‘But I’m a senator!’ (like that explains anything), Padme follows her heart, but the weight of Jedi disapproval weighs heavy on the relationship. Until, that is, the Jedi act to end it. Forget the nonsensical contrivance of Anakin’s ‘prophetic’ dream of Padme’s death. With oppressive Jedi disapproval clearly apparent, there’s already a much more sensible and meaningful catalyst for Anakin’s ultimate desertion.

Anakin is not tricked into embracing the Dark Side. He chooses it. Not because he wants to, but because he is forced to, by those who don’t truly want the balanced line of moderation and progress he aspires to. He’s bullied into choosing an extreme, and while the hardline of the Sith is philosophically no better than the hardline of the Jedi, by that same note, it is no worse. Anakin understandably makes a very human decision, and goes for the option that looks to help his real, personal situation. It’s a move we can sympathise with, and rather beautifully, one that parallels philosophically with the Sith’s libertarian ways. Plot, subtext, action and ideology all in sync, informed by – and informing - real character development.

All of this would make Darth Vader stronger, not weaker. It was an impossible notion before the prequels hit, but they actually make it hard to respect him. They turn the biggest, most interesting, most enigmatic bad guy in the galaxy into a sniveling, mopey teenager, blighted by angsty, adolescent grumbles and mistakes.

Get it right though, and Anakin’s agency and desire for change maintain the forthright strength he has in the Original Trilogy. They also make his relationship with Luke more poignant. He's not strictly trying to corrupt his son, but to complete the task of balance he himself wasn't able to achieve in his youth. He's seen Luke not as a potential Sith apprentice, but as a way out from beneath the Emperor's tyranny, and an opportunity to rebuild the Force anew. Luke also represents the chance to regain his family, the loss of which pushed him to his reluctant decision in the first place.

Heck, given his history with the oppressive Jedi, Vader has probably resented the Emperor for a long time, and for very similar reasons – a nice hark back to the idea that one extremism is as bad as another - but only truly manages to break his indoctrination at the end. Because manipulative, abusive relationships are hard to get out of. If all of this had come to pass, we’d have a prequel trilogy that supports and improves the original, rather than sitting separate and contradictory as it currently does.

Damn it, George, you were nearly there…

Offline faizoff

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread -- USE OTHER THREAD FOR THE FORCE AWAKENS SPOILERS
« Reply #3512 on: December 28, 2015, 08:58:35 AM »
Thanks BlackInk, very interesting read indeed. Groundwork definitely felt was there, execution though was out of focus.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread -- USE OTHER THREAD FOR THE FORCE AWAKENS SPOILERS
« Reply #3513 on: December 28, 2015, 10:51:18 AM »
Thanks BlackInk, very interesting read indeed. Groundwork definitely felt was there, execution though was out of focus.

I've been saying that for a long time (although I ultimately went a slightly different direction).
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Offline Podaar

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread -- USE OTHER THREAD FOR THE FORCE AWAKENS SPOILERS
« Reply #3514 on: December 28, 2015, 10:56:36 AM »
I read the article as well...and mostly agree with it, but ultimately I liked bosk1's post better (which I'm unable to find at the moment).

[edit] I found it! [/edit]

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=2459.msg2051174#msg2051174
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Offline Kotowboy

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 :rollin




Rich Evans & Mike Stoklasa from Red Letter Media laughing at Star Wars wookie-pedia articles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVzc20Bm8Xo

Offline mikemangioy

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First SW movie I saw in my life, I really liked TFA. That brought me to watch the original trilogy, boy those are fun movies! Now, seeing that the prequels have not that good of a reputation, should I even bother watching them to your advice?
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Offline Kotowboy

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Only for comedy value.

Offline Enigmachine

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First SW movie I saw in my life, I really liked TFA. That brought me to watch the original trilogy, boy those are fun movies! Now, seeing that the prequels have not that good of a reputation, should I even bother watching them to your advice?

Don't go in expecting brilliance, but I think you should give them a fair go. Rotten Tomatoes has TPM at 56% positive reviews, AotC at 66% and RotS at 79% with the average ratings being 6, 6.7 and 7.3 out of 10 respectively, which aren't exactly the ratings of disasters. Personally, I liked them.

Offline BlackInk

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I hate the first two, but I like the third one. I don't think they should be ignored though. So yeah, watch them, even if it'll only be once.

Offline hefdaddy42

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First SW movie I saw in my life, I really liked TFA. That brought me to watch the original trilogy, boy those are fun movies! Now, seeing that the prequels have not that good of a reputation, should I even bother watching them to your advice?
No.
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Offline orcus116

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I second that. Thinking back on it they add absolutely zero backstory to anything that goes on in the OT. Even the finale of ROTS was something that almost all moderately knowledgeable Star Wars fans knew about for some time before the movies were even made.

Offline Implode

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Only seek them out if you're super eager for more Star Wars content. Just know going in, you're not going to get a satisfying movie experience. Also, if you decide to watch them, it'd probably be better if you're able to separate the movies as works from the actual lore of the universe because the prequels can kind of ruin a few things in Star Wars if you take them as word of God canon for certain people.

(And to catch myself before bosk chimes in, I acknowledge they are canon, but I have no problem being a bit transformative in how I few things either.)

Offline hefdaddy42

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I view them as Apocryphal.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Kotowboy

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You could probably just watch Episode III and not miss much.

Ewen McGregor = Obi Wan.

Hayden WhatsHisName = Darth Vader

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There are some 'anti-cheese' edits of the prequels on youtube that are kind of good. There's even a 'Rise of the Empire' 3 hour film that serves as an edit of the most important stuff that happened in the prequels and mashing it together into a somewhat nice experience (of course, without most of The Phantom Menace, Anakin's love story and 'I don't like sand' confessions).
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Offline Destiny Of Chaos

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First SW movie I saw in my life, I really liked TFA. That brought me to watch the original trilogy, boy those are fun movies! Now, seeing that the prequels have not that good of a reputation, should I even bother watching them to your advice?

Just see them and draw your own conclusions. I personally prefer them over the OT, but that is a very unpopular opinion.

Offline Lucien

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First SW movie I saw in my life, I really liked TFA. That brought me to watch the original trilogy, boy those are fun movies! Now, seeing that the prequels have not that good of a reputation, should I even bother watching them to your advice?

Just see them and draw your own conclusions. I personally prefer them over the OT, but that is a very unpopular opinion.

I still don't get this
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Offline Kotowboy

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Indeed. It would be like me saying Into Darkness is better than The Wrath Of Khan.

As much as I like Into Darkness - that's just not true on any level.

Offline Implode

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I'm not sure bringing up this argument again is going to get us anywhere except in a state of angered frustration...

Offline Kotowboy

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Some people prefer the prequels to the original trilogy.

Let's just accept that. Take a moment and move on... :P

Offline TioJorge

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Meh.

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Offline ZirconBlue

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Some people prefer the prequels to the original trilogy.
No. No! That's not true! That's impossible!

Offline Kotowboy

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Some people prefer the prequels to the original trilogy.
No. No! That's not true! That's impossible!

serch ur feels u no it 2 b tr00 :neverusethis:

Offline Sub Luna Vitrea

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TFA was so much better than I thought it would be. It might be my second-favorite Star Wars movie, and it's at least my third-favorite. It's so much better than ROTJ.