Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rogue One

[bosk1]

And also, I think the prequels are objectively lazily written and directed films. That doesn't mean people can't enjoy them, but to say they are as good as or better than the OT is misguided. Also, to say that it's completely opinion-based is unfair to the art of film making. Ask anyone with experience in film or credibility; the overwhelming majority agrees that the prequels are simply not good.

Yup.  That can't even credibly be debated.

[Destiny Of Chaos]

LOL @ that.

For research purposes, how old are you? And how old were you when you first saw the prequels?

Take this for what it's worth, as I don't have any experience in film, or any "creditability". I just like the movies that I like because of my own experiences, personal opinion etc.


I'm 32. I was born in 1983, and watched the OT films several times both on VHS and television starting roughly at age 5. I saw the prequel films multiple times each, in theaters at ages 16, 19 and 22.  I do acknowledge that I'm not old enough to have first-hand experience of how Episode IV changed cinema and movie-going, but I am knowledgeable enough to respect it.  I prefer the prequels, as a whole, to the OT as a whole. It is what it is.

[Implode]

That's cool to hear actually! In the past, it seemed that all people who claimed prequels were better than the OT were very young, born around 1990-1995.

And I didn't mean the credibility comment in a way to discredit your opinions simply because you don't make films. I have no more experience than you in that respect.   You can enjoy the movies, and enjoy them more than the OT! That's fine, and I can respect that.

[Destiny Of Chaos]

That's cool to hear actually! In the past, it seemed that all people who claimed prequels were better than the OT were very young, born around 1990-1995.

And I didn't mean the credibility comment in a way to discredit your opinions simply because you don't make films. I have no more experience than you in that respect.   You can enjoy the movies, and enjoy them more than the OT! That's fine, and I can respect that.

I appreciate that.  That's why I always throw out the "in my opinion" disclaimer. The prequels certainly had their shortcomings, and the OT certainly had things that kicked ass (Pretty much everything that happened @Cloud City in V was amazing). 

[BlackInk]

V
VII
VI
III
IV
II
I

[BlackInk]

While Phantom Menace is far from the worst movie of all time, I do consider it the biggest fuck-up in movie history.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

The Force Awakens is definitely in my top three, and might even go down as my favorite Star Wars movie, but that will require at least a year or two to accurately determine.

[jingle.boy]

I'm close to Hef on the rankings, but I think I deserves to be lower.  The gap between I and II isn't that large - they both deserve a huge gap after III.  So many shortcomings in both.

[Zantera]

V
VII
IV
VI
--
III
I
II

[Implode]

If we're including gaps, then here's my graph. (VII will likely move down over time.)

Code: [Select]

        II  I    III                 VI                  IV VII        V
Worst<---------------------------------|--------------------------------->Best


[Lucien]

So the general consensus is V, VII, IV, VI, III, I, II?

interesting

[bosk1]

I don't think there is anywhere near enough data to consider it a general consensus.  But I can say that, with the exception of flipping IV and VI, I would probably tentatively agree with that ("tentatively" because VII is just too new to really feel like I can solidly take it all in, much less rank it against the others). 

[Implode]

III and VI are reversed for many, along with I and II. But what's common between almost all rankings are which movies are in which clusters if that makes any sense.

[hefdaddy42]

I think the GENERAL consensus is OT better than PT, with the order of the individual films varying.

And V is seen by many people as the best of the lot.

[425]

This is worth a look: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/film/star-wars-the-force-awakens/best-worst-movies-poll/

Tl;dr, if you do Rotten Tomatoes style analysis of the reviews of each Star Wars film using only reviews that were published at the time of the film's release, the film with the best critical reception was Revenge of the Sith. The six Lucas films would rank as follows:

1. Revenge of the Sith: 80%
2. A New Hope: 74%
3. Attack of the Clones: 67%
4. The Empire Strikes Back: 63%
5. Return of the Jedi: 61%
6. The Phantom Menace: 60%

What's interesting about this is that Empire did not receive an overly laudatory critical reception initially, and sometime between then and now, it became the clear fan and critic favorite.

[Zantera]

In many ways the OT was before its time though. When you get those movies you're not always gonna see universal praise at the initial release. Just look at Blade Runner, it received very mixed opinions but has become a cult classic over time. Sometimes when you look back at those films, it's easier to appreciate them in retrospect because you see how great they were for its time, and I think we're more open to weird ideas now compared to 20-30-40 years ago. Same with Star Wars. A lot of people thought it was amazing when it came out, but I bet there was also a lot of people scratching their heads and going "what the hell is this?" and being puzzled by words like "Jedi", "Sith", "Wookie" etc.

You also gotta keep in mind that Episode III was preceded by two of the worst films in human history, so I think when the critics had suffered through TPM and especially AotC, getting to Revenge of the Sith, it looks like Citizen Kane in comparison to those two. I also think the RT score can be somewhat misleading because it's not about what's the most loved, but what has the broadest appeal. I think The Force Awakens has a much broader appeal to the general audiences today than A New Hope had to the general audiences in '77, and as a result TFA will get a higher RT score, but in a lot of ways ANH is a more beloved film.

[bosk1]

^All that.  Plus, critics are stupid.

[Implode]

Also, if you're hoping that means that some day, the prequels will be regarded as classics, I've got bad news for you. It's been almost the same amount of time since the prequels as there was time in between Jedi and TPM. 

[bosk1]

I don't think anyone thinks that.  The world over, there are like 5 people that might think the prequels are on par with the OT, and given that 2 of them post on this board, that only leaves 3 unaccounted for.

[TioJorge]

 

I personally revel in both the amount of blind love for the OT and the unrivaled hate towards the PT. When you get right down to it, both the amount of love and hate is ridiculous. The OT is not the pristine, ingeniously sculpted, brilliantly deep, intricately woven tale that many seem to elate it to and the PT isn't nearly as much of a horribly dry anal raping that the other side stones it for. Star Wars is, and always will be no matter what deluded, addicted, deranged mofo tells you (again, on either end), simply good fun sci/fi. It has some great lore, interesting mythos and some awesome characters with a nice backdrop of a space epic. It's certainly not the end-all of space-epics and is pretty by-the-numbers sci/fi. The utterly asinine, almost immature 'battle' of PT vs. OT (and now vs. NT, New Trilogy) will always and forever be brought up when discussing anything Star Wars related and it's a damn shame because holy fucking hell no one should give that many shits about anyone's opinion, let alone a series that is just full of a good time and nothing more. Star Wars has always been, at its core, about the sense of self, adventure, and the motherfuggin' force. To go beyond that is to tarnish its name and even (rather, especially) the most addicted of fans can't even see that because they're too busy running their mouths about what the pros and cons are of each film and each set of trilogies. But that is just my own opinion.

Great, fun series...also not worth anywhere near the amount of ludicrous arguments that are spent over it for any amount of time. 

That said, it's not like any of this will deter either faction towards any kind of sanity, so let the weirdly obsessive battle continue! 

/gump And that's all I hafta say about that. /gump

[BlobVanDam]

I agree with you on the OT. I've never been a Star Wars "fan", I just casually enjoy them as a movie watcher, and I've only seen them a few times each, but they're good fun movies.

However, the PT is genuinely awful.

[jingle.boy]

I personally revel in both the amount of blind love for the OT and the unrivaled hate towards the PT. When you get right down to it, both the amount of love and hate is ridiculous. The OT is not the pristine, ingeniously sculpted, brilliantly deep, intricately woven tale that many seem to elate it to and the PT isn't nearly as much of a horribly dry anal raping that the other side stones it for. Star Wars is, and always will be no matter what deluded, addicted, deranged mofo tells you (again, on either end), simply good fun sci/fi. It has some great lore, interesting mythos and some awesome characters with a nice backdrop of a space epic. It's certainly not the end-all of space-epics and is pretty by-the-numbers sci/fi. The utterly asinine, almost immature 'battle' of PT vs. OT (and now vs. NT, New Trilogy) will always and forever be brought up when discussing anything Star Wars related and it's a damn shame because holy fucking hell no one should give that many shits about anyone's opinion, let alone a series that is just full of a good time and nothing more. Star Wars has always been, at its core, about the sense of self, adventure, and the motherfuggin' force. To go beyond that is to tarnish its name and even (rather, especially) the most addicted of fans can't even see that because they're too busy running their mouths about what the pros and cons are of each film and each set of trilogies. But that is just my own opinion.

Great, fun series...also not worth anywhere near the amount of ludicrous arguments that are spent over it for any amount of time. 

That said, it's not like any of this will deter either faction towards any kind of sanity, so let the weirdly obsessive battle continue! 

/gump And that's all I hafta say about that. /gump

[Cool Chris]

I have not seen VII yet, but I would rank II way higher than I. Part of that is attributable to my recollections of both at the time. I knew a lot about I going in, which somewhat spoiled (pun intended) my enjoyment of it. Nothing much happened that I didn't know was going to happen. (ignoring the fact that it was not a complex plot to begin with). When II was coming out, I decided to avoid any spoilerage, but did watch the trailers. As such, I enjoyed the experience in the theater much more.

Possibly unrelated, today I would say II is much more enjoyable than I, if I had to sit down and watch either. And since I was a boy, SW has always been about enjoyment to me, so that goes a long way in how I view these films.

[j]

This is worth a look: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/film/star-wars-the-force-awakens/best-worst-movies-poll/

Tl;dr, if you do Rotten Tomatoes style analysis of the reviews of each Star Wars film using only reviews that were published at the time of the film's release, the film with the best critical reception was Revenge of the Sith. The six Lucas films would rank as follows:

1. Revenge of the Sith: 80%
2. A New Hope: 74%
3. Attack of the Clones: 67%
4. The Empire Strikes Back: 63%
5. Return of the Jedi: 61%
6. The Phantom Menace: 60%

What's interesting about this is that Empire did not receive an overly laudatory critical reception initially, and sometime between then and now, it became the clear fan and critic favorite.

Also interesting that episode III ranks highest by this metric.  I admit that upon first seeing it after it came out, I thought it was AWESOME.  In hindsight, I think it had to do with the fact that so many highly anticipated plot pieces were tackled in it and it really tied together a ton of stuff from the prequels to the OT.  The narrative content was so exciting that I initially overlooked the shitty dialogue, plot holes, and other shortcomings, only to be hit upside the head by them while viewing it again later.

Haven't seen VII yet, hopefully I'll have time to go soon.  I'm hearing good things.

-J

[425]

I don't think anyone thinks that.  The world over, there are like 5 people that might think the prequels are on par with the OT, and given that 2 of them post on this board, that only leaves 3 unaccounted for.

Mike Klimo (who I keep pimping for a good reason: he's done some very intelligent and insightful scholarship and analysis on these films that doesn't deserve to be ignored just because you hate the prequels)

George Lucas

Hayden Christensen probably

There you go, all accounted for. 

You also gotta keep in mind that Episode III was preceded by two of the worst films in human history,

Thanks for reminding me why I tend to avoid talking to people older than myself about Star Wars. This is an absolutely preposterous statement. No one who has seen The Room, Titanic: The Legend Goes On or Birdemic: Shock and Terror could possibly think that Attack of the Clones is anywhere in the league of the worst films in human history. There are films that came out this year that are vastly, VASTLY inferior to The Phantom Menace. Films that came out this week (Alvin and the Chipmunks: The Road Chip, anyone?).

Dislike the prequels if you want. You're wrong and you're missing half the story, but dislike them if you want. But when you are making utterly insane statements like they're "two of the worst films in human history"? My God, they obviously are not. They are mediocre at worst. And at the point where you're saying that, it's evident that you aren't looking at the films with anything that resembles an objective perspective. It's just irrational hatred at that point.

My brief period of engagement in this forum's Star Wars threads is about to come to a predictable end, I think.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I don't think the prequels are amazing, but I do think people tend to be rather hyperbolic about how awful they are, to an extent that just seems rather silly.

edit: Which also tends to be based on an equally silly reverence towards the original trilogy, I believe.

[jammindude]

Snip

[Implode]

I don't think the prequels are amazing, but I do think people tend to be rather hyperbolic about how awful they are, to an extent that just seems rather silly.

edit: Which also tends to be based on an equally silly reverence towards the original trilogy, I believe.

I agree. Although I do think it's easier for people to overstate how good the OT is than for people to overstate how awful the PT is. Star Wars as never a series of deep and high brow entertainment. It's always been a fun fantasy adventure borrow story elements and structures from past stories put in a new settings. It's always been a product, meant to be sold to the general populace for fun. And they did that very very well. They were amazingly effective and enjoyable movies.

[Fiery Winds]

*snip*

I'd post this in the other thread as this is a massive spoiler.

[Outcrier]

So the general consensus is V, VII, IV, VI, III, I, II?

interesting

From what i see, Force Awakens is right in the middle between OT and PT. It isn't lauded as the OT to be ranked along them or awful received to be along the PT.

[Zantera]

I'd argue that The Room is a much more entertaining film and definitely not as hard to sit through as AotC or TPM, with that said, not necessarily better, but more enjoyable at least.

[jammindude]

DOH!!! I am so sorry! I honestly thought I was in the spoiler thread when I posted that.

 

[Podaar]

So Mrs. P had the great idea to watch the previous Star Wars movies prior to our Christmas Day viewing of The Force Awakens. I grabbed the original trilogy box set, and she overrode me and put in The Phantom Menace.  I rolled my eyes, and she said, "Oh, come on. It's not that bad."

When it was over, she looked at me and laughed and said, "You may destroy that DVD. The suck is strong with that one!" 

[kaos2900]

I personally revel in both the amount of blind love for the OT and the unrivaled hate towards the PT. When you get right down to it, both the amount of love and hate is ridiculous. The OT is not the pristine, ingeniously sculpted, brilliantly deep, intricately woven tale that many seem to elate it to and the PT isn't nearly as much of a horribly dry anal raping that the other side stones it for. Star Wars is, and always will be no matter what deluded, addicted, deranged mofo tells you (again, on either end), simply good fun sci/fi. It has some great lore, interesting mythos and some awesome characters with a nice backdrop of a space epic. It's certainly not the end-all of space-epics and is pretty by-the-numbers sci/fi. The utterly asinine, almost immature 'battle' of PT vs. OT (and now vs. NT, New Trilogy) will always and forever be brought up when discussing anything Star Wars related and it's a damn shame because holy fucking hell no one should give that many shits about anyone's opinion, let alone a series that is just full of a good time and nothing more. Star Wars has always been, at its core, about the sense of self, adventure, and the motherfuggin' force. To go beyond that is to tarnish its name and even (rather, especially) the most addicted of fans can't even see that because they're too busy running their mouths about what the pros and cons are of each film and each set of trilogies. But that is just my own opinion.

Great, fun series...also not worth anywhere near the amount of ludicrous arguments that are spent over it for any amount of time. 

That said, it's not like any of this will deter either faction towards any kind of sanity, so let the weirdly obsessive battle continue! 

/gump And that's all I hafta say about that. /gump

This is the best post ever.

[Destiny Of Chaos]

I personally revel in both the amount of blind love for the OT and the unrivaled hate towards the PT. When you get right down to it, both the amount of love and hate is ridiculous. The OT is not the pristine, ingeniously sculpted, brilliantly deep, intricately woven tale that many seem to elate it to and the PT isn't nearly as much of a horribly dry anal raping that the other side stones it for. Star Wars is, and always will be no matter what deluded, addicted, deranged mofo tells you (again, on either end), simply good fun sci/fi. It has some great lore, interesting mythos and some awesome characters with a nice backdrop of a space epic. It's certainly not the end-all of space-epics and is pretty by-the-numbers sci/fi. The utterly asinine, almost immature 'battle' of PT vs. OT (and now vs. NT, New Trilogy) will always and forever be brought up when discussing anything Star Wars related and it's a damn shame because holy fucking hell no one should give that many shits about anyone's opinion, let alone a series that is just full of a good time and nothing more. Star Wars has always been, at its core, about the sense of self, adventure, and the motherfuggin' force. To go beyond that is to tarnish its name and even (rather, especially) the most addicted of fans can't even see that because they're too busy running their mouths about what the pros and cons are of each film and each set of trilogies. But that is just my own opinion.

Great, fun series...also not worth anywhere near the amount of ludicrous arguments that are spent over it for any amount of time. 

That said, it's not like any of this will deter either faction towards any kind of sanity, so let the weirdly obsessive battle continue! 

/gump And that's all I hafta say about that. /gump

This is the best post ever.

Amen. The amount of elitism in these conversations has always been disappointing.